Believers That Have Gone Astray Are Still Saved

[GodB4Us]

@Shaolin & @B-A-C

I believe all Catholics & those that have gone astray that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, are saved as a result, regardless of the dead works of Catholicism or any other iniquity that deny this glorious result.

When a person is saved, Jesus lays that foundation from which all other works built on top of it will be judged. Any work of iniquity on that foundation is the same as denying Jesus verbally, and although He will deny them, unless they repent of those dead works before they die or before the Bridegroom comes, the important truth here is that He still abides, Read verse 13.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Now you may see verse 10 as if one can lose salvation, but do check again because it says about "obtaining" the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

Paul goes on to give an example of a former believer that would deny Him verbally and yet he stressed, "nevertheless" because of that foundation is still laid in that former believer, along with that seal of adoption for why He still abides in those denied by Him that gets left behind as "castaway" as Paul warned.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Paul goes on to explain that there are 2 kinds of vessels in His House below whereas those who heed the call to depart from iniquity, thus purging the dead works that deny Him off of that foundation, can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes,

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who do not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, whereby He will deny them, they will become castaways but as vessels unto dishonor that are still in His House. See?

Salvation is not lost, but NOT being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event is a loss for once the door to the Marriage Supper is shut, no saved believer can participate in, except for the 2 witnesses that will die halfway thru the great tribulation, resurrected, and then called to come up hither as they are also received as vessels unto honor in His House. See Revelation 11:3-13

Anyway, those that have to wait to be resurrected after the great tribulation, will be vessels unto dishonor in His House, including the new believers that get saved after the rapture, but die with those saints who get left behind. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House as they will testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved for that is how we become the sons of God; not by the will of the flesh nor of the will of men as if making a pledge to God, but by being born of God for believing in Him.

This is why a saved believer can be "excommunicated" from the Marriage Supper for being workers of iniquity as those works on that foundation does deny Him & defile the temple of God which is their physical bodies, but that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does also because He still abides for He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him;

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So even former believes that get denied by the Bridegroom are still saved when left behind as castaways because they are not cast out of His kingdom since He still abides in them.

That is the truth as read in verse 1 of the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 that ARE the kingdom of Heaven when five were foolish that were not ready and got left behind.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The five that were foolish are still the kingdom of heaven but missed out on the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom for not being ready to be received as vessels unto honor in His House at the rapture event but instead, left behind to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House,

So regardless of all the Catholics that died in the dead works of Catholicism that deny Him, their spirits are with the Lord in Heaven for they have been bought with a price & sealed as His for believing in Him. That is why the vessels unto dishonor are in His House as the testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe even in His name.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Read about how He will judge those works on that foundation, but regardless of the loss of being partakers of the firstcfruits, and left behind to die, their spirits are saved for why those saints left behind to die will be with the Lord just as those whom have died before the rapture but not resurrected as firstfruits, are still with the Lord in heaven to wait their resurrection after the great tribulation.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This is why those unrepentant saints & former believers that gets left behind are still saved, because He shall lose none of all the Father has given him and even though they ae "cast" out as excommunicated from the Marriage Supper BUT not cast out of His kingdom as if they can lose their salvation. That is how one can align all the truths in His words by His grace & by His help.

 

[Shaolin]

@Shaolin & @B-A-C

I believe all Catholics & those that have gone astray that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, are saved as a result, regardless of the dead works of Catholicism or any other iniquity that deny this glorious result.

The unforgivable sin cancels out your view here.

When a person is saved, Jesus lays that foundation from which all other works built on top of it will be judged. Any work of iniquity on that foundation is the same as denying Jesus verbally, and although He will deny them, unless they repent of those dead works before they die or before the Bridegroom comes, the important truth here is that He still abides, Read verse 13.

First...read verse 13 of what?
Second, because you do not know anything about covenants or covenanting, you fail to understand that one only has eternal life if he is in Christ, and one only remains in Christ as long as he is walking in obedience to God in Christ, particularly in the Law of Christ (I John 3:23-24). As Scripture clearly teaches, eternal life is found ONLY "in Christ" and if a saved person for whatever reason ceases to remain abiding in Christ, then he no longer has eternal life and is on his way to eternal fire.

Also, keep in mind this important Biblical principle of interpretation, the Contradiction Principle: God does NOT contradict Himself in His Word, at all, anywhere. If there is an apparent contradiction, it is solidly based in either the translation or in your personal interpretation...in which case, one needs to amend his interpretation in order to harmonize the text with the rest of Scripture (the Harmony Principle). That said, let us continue...

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This verse does not address believers or fallen believers, so how does it support your claim?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This is a classic calvinist text that has been butchered through calvinism for centuries. The text does NOT say that God will not deny the unfaithful person, it says that God will not deny the truth of His Word. If a person is unfaithful to God, then He will deny Him access to heaven. God has set down rules for Christian behavior, and if you do not follow those rules, while there is grace for those who are in Christ, by breaking the rules you cease to remain in Christ, hence no more grace. God will deny such a person because he is walking in willful disobedience...not just falling to sin every now and then, but practicing sinful behavior. That, too, is covenant.

In covenant, there is only covenant grace. You have God's favor as long as you remain abiding in Christ the living New Covenant of God - but if a person ceases to remain abiding in Him, then he has no more grace, because saving grace is a gift from God by the new covenant.

Now you may see verse 10 as if one can lose salvation, but do check again because it says about "obtaining" the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House.

Nope, I don't see it as saying on can lose salvation. The verse that says that, is verse 13.

Paul goes on to give an example of a former believer that would deny Him verbally and yet he stressed, "nevertheless" because of that foundation is still laid in that former believer, along with that seal of adoption for why He still abides in those denied by Him that gets left behind as "castaway" as Paul warned.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

You have a problem here, verse 19 does not negate verse 18, and that is essentially what you are claiming. Hymenaeus and Philetus were not castaways, they were false teachers. No false teacher walks with or abides in Christ. They were perverting the gospel message and people's faith was being overthrown...they were led off the right path into perversion, and these two men were directly responsible for lives lost. The word translated there as "overthrow" is the word anatrepo, meaning to subvert and destroy, to overturn, overthrow, destroy. If you are the cause of destroying a believer's faith and, thus, his stand as having eternal life, then you will pay for that unless you honestly come to repent for it at some time later...but those people's blood will still be on your hands unless they return to God at some point before they die.

(I was just re-reading that paragraph, and when I say "you" I don't mean YOU, I mean anyone.)

Paul goes on to explain that there are 2 kinds of vessels in His House below whereas those who heed the call to depart from iniquity, thus purging the dead works that deny Him off of that foundation, can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes,

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Actually, that is not what he is saying at all. He is making the distinction between a common person (an unsaved person) and a saved person who desires to be a good minister of the gospel. You left off verse 22, where Paul continues exorting Timothy to "flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness..." It has nothing to do with someone not being able to lose their standing as having salvation or eternal life, it has to do with being a good minister. You have taken this verse out of its context and reassigned to it a wrong interpretation in order to support your thesis. It does not stand.

Those who do not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, whereby He will deny them, they will become castaways but as vessels unto dishonor that are still in His House. See?

I see what you are saying, but it is in error and does not line up with the rest of Scripture. That is what happens when you take a passage out of its context...

Anyway, those that have to wait to be resurrected after the great tribulation, will be vessels unto dishonor in His House, including the new believers that get saved after the rapture, but die with those saints who get left behind. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House as they will testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him.

None of the passages that you have given thus far supports any of your claim, primarily because you have interpreted them outside of their context.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved for that is how we become the sons of God; not by the will of the flesh nor of the will of men as if making a pledge to God, but by being born of God for believing in Him.

No, this verse does not say that a person is saved simply because they believe. That is a half-truth that is paramount to a deceptive lie...and that, too, originated with Calvin. Calvinism teaches that a person gets saved only be believing...so you apparently believe in more calvinistic doctrine than you think you do. The main point of the text you reference, is that Christ gives those who choose to believe in Him "the power to become sons of God," it does NOT say that they "become sons of God." You need to pay attention to all of the words of a text, and not just the ones that you think support your contention. No one becomes a son of God just because they believe, that belief is only the first prerequisite a person must come to in order to get saved.

This is why a saved believer can be "excommunicated" from the Marriage Supper for being workers of iniquity as those works on that foundation does deny Him & defile the temple of God which is their physical bodies, but that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does also because He still abides for He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him;

You keep returning to this false notion of a foundation...again, one only has that "foundation" as long as he remains abiding in Christ by walking in obedience to His Word. If a person in Christ ceases to do so, then he is cut off by God himself (John 15:1-2, 6) and is no longer abiding in Christ...he is on his way to eternal fire.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

More calvinist mantra that you claim not to believe. The word for "sealed" here is sphragizo, and it can mean either to seal (as in a signet ring marking parchment or sealing the rolled parchment with wax or clay with the dignitary's signet ring), or marked in order to show authenticity or approvedness. Most of its 14 uses in the NT Scriptures (including here) means mark of approval, it does NOT mean that you have been magically sealed in a giant spiritual zip-lock baggie preserved for heaven...that is false calvinistic doctrine that is NOT supported by Scripture one ounce.

And, even if it did mean that, one is only marked or sealed by the presence of the Holy Spirit in their life, as long as they continue to abide in Christ and walk in obedience to God...

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God gives to those who are walking in obedience to Him. (and others)

Again, all of the gifts and promises of God to humanity are wrapped up and given in, through, and by the new covenant...including the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If a saved person ceases to walk in obedience to God, then His Spirit will leave that person after they cross a line, because he is no longer abiding in Christ, the living new covenant of God (Isa 42:6, 49:8).

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So even former believes that get denied by the Bridegroom are still saved when left behind as castaways because they are not cast out of His kingdom since He still abides in them.

Incorrect...and you flub this one because you are not studying the topic topically...rather you are only taking a few passages out of over 300 that address eternal life and salvation. Jesus says that He will not cast such a person out, and later He says that God is the one who will cut such a person off (again, John 15:1-2, 6)...along with numerous other passages that teach the same. A person is only on his way to heaven IF he is currently abiding in Christ by walking in obedience to God, no one else. If Tom was in Christ, and fell away, he is NOT still saved, he has NO foundation (as you call it), because all that God provides for us is found only in Christ...salvation, eternal life, righteousness, holiness, redemption, reconciliation, justification, etc...they are all bound up within the covenant of Christ, and the ONLY way a person has any of these, is if he is in Christ.

That is the truth as read in verse 1 of the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 that ARE the kingdom of Heaven when five were foolish that were not ready and got left behind.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The five that were foolish are still the kingdom of heaven but missed out on the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom for not being ready to be received as vessels unto honor in His House at the rapture event but instead, left behind to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House,

It is apparent that you have been taught error on a great many biblical subjects. The marriage supper of the Lamb is in the resurrection where only those who died in Christ can participate in. Those who have been left behind in this particular parable does not mean the rapture, it means that they were foolish and thought they were walking with God when in reality they were not. They were believers, but again, just believing does NOT take a person to heaven. This is the same set of circumstances that Jesus prophesied about here:

Matthew 7:21-23*
21 Not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who continually obey My Father who is in Heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name performed many works of power?'
23 And then I will tell them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'

A person uneducated in covenant will not understand accurately what Jesus is saying here in this passage. The Greek implies that Jesus says that those who call Him Lord are saved, or were saved at one time. He continues stating the fact that unless you are walking in obedience to God, you will NOT enter heaven...at all. This tells us that maintaining our state of eternal life is directly hinged upon our obedience to God - no obedience, no eternal life, no heaven. In verse 22 He appears to throw a monkey wrench into the statement, but in reality He is addressing the purpose for salvation in the first place. He basically states that even though these people were saved and abiding in covenant relationship with God, which is the only way they could perform in the supernatural as lined out in the text - because all of the gifts of the Spirit (and so forth) are given to us, along with all spiritual and authority, in and through the new covenant. These people were saved, and performing spiritual feats by the Holy Spirit given to them through the new covenant...BUT...they failed to take up the purpose of getting freed from their sins in the first place...

John 17:3
And this is the purpose for eternal life, so that they can come to know You personally, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God does NOT save anyone for heaven. The atonement in Christ follows the exact same purpose and function of the atonement given to Moses by God - to forgive one's sins and to cleanse him from his sins, qualifying him to be able to enter into the presence of a holy God so that he can engage God in personal relationship. That is what salvation from sin is all about...and if a person gets saved, but fails to engage God in personal relationship thereby coming to know Him and God...then on judgment day he will hear those words from Christ, "I never knew you, depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." In the synoptic Lukean version, He says...

Luke 13:24-27*
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When the Master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, “Lord, open to us,” then He will answer you, and say, “I do not know you, where have you been?” Then you will begin to say, “We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.” But He will say, “I say to you, I do not know you, where have you been? Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity!”

The implication is simple...these people were saved at one point in their lives, but they failed to engage God in personal relationship, the very reason and purpose that they were saved for in the first place. That is what the Greek means by "where have you been?" Implying that they were not spending adequate time with God in prayer, coming to know Him. Rather, they were off playing games, gardening, watching hours and hours of TV, on their computers for hours a day, and everything else under the sun EXCEPT spending time in the Light of God's presence.

So regardless of all the Catholics that died in the dead works of Catholicism that deny Him, their spirits are with the Lord in Heaven for they have been bought with a price & sealed as His for believing in Him. That is why the vessels unto dishonor are in His House as the testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe even in His name.

Absolutely wrong, and in great error. Salvation and eternal life are not the same things. Salvation is the new birth, a work of God alone - but eternal life is maintained by YOU, according to Scripture (even what we just read). If you cease to walk in obedience to God, regardless of whether you got saved in the past or not, then you are on your way to hell...that is what Scripture teaches...

II Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

I John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Matthew 13:18-21
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

John 16:1
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.”

John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain abiding in Me, he is rejected, cut off and thrown away like a branch and withers; and they are gathered together, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

I Timothy 5:11
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry

I Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

II Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to continuously renew themselves to the quality of repentance that they had at the first, seeing as they continually crucify to themselves the Son of God, putting Him to continuous public shame.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Colossians 2:18
Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

I Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

II Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the Faith.

Romans 1:28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up (rejected) to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

II Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you . . . unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (literally: “unless you are rejected”)

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit (worthless, rejected, disqualified) for any good work.

Hebrews 6:8
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless (rejected, disqualified) and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Romans 1:21-32
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


Demas

Colossians 4:14
Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.

Philemon 1:24
and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

II Timothy 4:10
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Hymenaeus

I Timothy 1:19-20
possessing doctrines of the faith and good conscience, concerning some who, after rejecting those articles of faith, they have been shipwrecked, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

II Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

II Peter 2:20-22
Because if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."


ALL of the above passages (32 in all) teach that a saved person can fail to walk with God, fall away from Christ, and end up in hell. Remember, God does not contradict Himself, therefore, you need to re-align your interpretations of the passages you hold to that you think state a saved person cannot end up in hell, because your interpretation directly contradicts what God's Word says. His Word is not in error, it is your interpretation of it that is in error. And remember, this is a calvinist doctrine you are arguing for, while claiming at the same time out of the same mouth that calvinism is a heresy.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This verse has nothing to do with a saved person losing his eternal life.

Read about how He will judge those works on that foundation, but regardless of the loss of being partakers of the firstcfruits, and left behind to die, their spirits are saved for why those saints left behind to die will be with the Lord just as those whom have died before the rapture but not resurrected as firstfruits, are still with the Lord in heaven to wait their resurrection after the great tribulation.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

You have again fallen back upon calvinist explanations for this false ideology. Read the text again, only this time in its context...Paul is addressing ministers, NOT the average Christian. Ministers are the builders upon the foundation, and if they build upon that true foundation with false doctrines, whether they understand them to be false or not, their works will burn up. The minister might still be saved (when we study the topic TOPICALLY and not with this single verse) IF he is not following his own false doctrines, cutting himself off from Christ by doing so.

This is why those unrepentant saints & former believers that gets left behind are still saved, because He shall lose none of all the Father has given him and even though they ae "cast" out as excommunicated from the Marriage Supper BUT not cast out of His kingdom as if they can lose their salvation. That is how one can align all the truths in His words by His grace & by His help.

Nope, a false and unbiblical statement altogether. The passages that I have given to you demonstrate that fact to a "T." The only way to get around them, is to ignore and fail to apply a complete Biblical hermeneutic (as you already have here), and doing that will destroy your claim to seeking truth from God. God does not simply drop truth into our minds, He expects us to search for it according to the right way, and if we fail to do that, particularly after we have been shown how to do that, then we are self-condemned.

..

 

[GodB4Us]

The unforgivable sin cancels out your view here.

Not really. The only sin the Holy Spirit will convict is that they believed not on Jesus Christ. That mans those whim have never believed in Him thus never had received that seal of adoption, the Holy Ghost, are already condemned, That is how the Holy Spirit will convict them of sin for not believing in Jesus Christ because He is not in them.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

So believers have been misapplying that warning from Jesus as if there is a sin against the Holy Ghost that no body will be forgiven of when in actuality, it is the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ that is the unforgiveable sin.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So the Pharisees were speaking against the miracles that Jesus was doing so as to scatter the people from believing in Him, but even though any sin against the Son will be forgiven, not having the Holy Ghost in them by believing in Jesus Christ is how unbelieving sinners are condemned by the Holy Ghost for this unforgiveable sin.

That means regardless of unrepentant sinning believers and former believers that get left behind, they are still saved as those sins and iniquities for why they get left behind for will be forgiven, burned off of that foundation so they can be received by Him but as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity to be ready before the Bridegroom had come.

God be willing, I shall address the rest of your post as it is a long one.

 

[GodB4Us]

First...read verse 13 of what?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Second, because you do not know anything about covenants or covenanting, you fail to understand that one only has eternal life if he is in Christ, and one only remains in Christ as long as he is walking in obedience to God in Christ, particularly in the Law of Christ (I John 3:23-24). As Scripture clearly teaches, eternal life is found ONLY "in Christ" and if a saved person for whatever reason ceases to remain abiding in Christ, then he no longer has eternal life and is on his way to eternal fire.

Au contraire. Jesus laid the foundation that cannot be removed in every believer, but He will judge what was built on that foundation. If any one defiles the temple of God, He willl destroy with physical death, but they are still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

So those saints that are at the Church at Thyatira in the Book of Revelation, if they do not depart from iniquity, they will be left behind as cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be awarded with death, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So even though left behind to die, they are still saved, as their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as the scripture testify below..

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God be willing, I shall continue to reply to your long post. Stopping here for this point of truth.

 

[GodB4Us]

Also, keep in mind this important Biblical principle of interpretation, the Contradiction Principle: God does NOT contradict Himself in His Word, at all, anywhere. If there is an apparent contradiction, it is solidly based in either the translation or in your personal interpretation...in which case, one needs to amend his interpretation in order to harmonize the text with the rest of Scripture (the Harmony Principle). That said, let us continue...

I submit also for discernment with Him, that church's teachings has a way of blinding people from reading what is plainly written. So do keep that in mind as the Lord leads in this iron sharpen iron ministry between us.

I posted this verse;

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

To with you had replied.

This verse does not address believers or fallen believers, so how does it support your claim?

Titus 1:16 was to be in addition to the following verses below in showing that He can deny believers by their works that deny Him as per Titus 1:16 and not just by former believers verbally denying Him in 2 Timothy 2:12 BUT yet He still abides in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

To with you had replied;

This is a classic calvinist text that has been butchered through calvinism for centuries. The text does NOT say that God will not deny the unfaithful person, it says that God will not deny the truth of His Word. If a person is unfaithful to God, then He will deny Him access to heaven. God has set down rules for Christian behavior, and if you do not follow those rules, while there is grace for those who are in Christ, by breaking the rules you cease to remain in Christ, hence no more grace. God will deny such a person because he is walking in willful disobedience...not just falling to sin every now and then, but practicing sinful behavior. That, too, is covenant.

I am not familiar with Calvin butchering of this text, nor am I referring to John Calvin, but if you are saying that Calvin meant that God will not deny the unfaithful person, that is not what is written per the end of verse 12. Christians goes through persecution and sometimes they will deny Him to save their own lives as some of our brothers & sisters have done when persecuted by Hinduists in India as they are forced to convert to Hinduism and eat camel dung. They need our prayers for the Lord to give them the courage and any other fruits of the Spirit they need to renounce Hinduism and reclaim their faith in Jesus Christ to die for Him so the Indian Nationalists that are Hinduists may believe and be saved.

Anyway, saved believers can wind up denying Him under persecution just as former believers that have been led astray by the lie of he evolution theory that do not believe in the Bible & Jesus Christ any more, but Paul shares this truth.

If we believe not in verse 13 is referring to us believers and so the "he" that abideth as being faithful is Jesus Christ. That means Jesus can deny those who deny Him per he end of verse 12 but even if they believe not in Him any more, He is faithful because He still abides.

In covenant, there is only covenant grace. You have God's favor as long as you remain abiding in Christ the living New Covenant of God - but if a person ceases to remain abiding in Him, then he has no more grace, because saving grace is a gift from God by the new covenant.

Nope, I don't see it as saying on can lose salvation. The verse that says that, is verse 13.

I do not believe you are understanding me and so hopefully, some clarification with the Lord's help is helping you now.

You have a problem here, verse 19 does not negate verse 18, and that is essentially what you are claiming. Hymenaeus and Philetus were not castaways, they were false teachers. No false teacher walks with or abides in Christ. They were perverting the gospel message and people's faith was being overthrown...they were led off the right path into perversion, and these two men were directly responsible for lives lost. The word translated there as "overthrow" is the word anatrepo, meaning to subvert and destroy, to overturn, overthrow, destroy. If you are the cause of destroying a believer's faith and, thus, his stand as having eternal life, then you will pay for that unless you honestly come to repent for it at some time later...but those people's blood will still be on your hands unless they return to God at some point before they die.

In following the message of truth from 2 Timothy 2:11-13 about how He still abides in former believers even if they do get left behind when He denies them at the rapture event for being in unrepentant iniquity, Paul gives an example of a former believer to wit he says nevertheless as signifying the foundation laid by Jesus Christ and that seal of adoption that can never be removed for why even former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity or else be left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who depart from iniquity shall be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House, but because any that are still in iniquity is how that iniquity is denying Him for why He is denying those saints, even though He still abides in those left behind.

(I was just re-reading that paragraph, and when I say "you" I don't mean YOU, I mean anyone.)

I understand. Thanks for the clarification any way.

Actually, that is not what he is saying at all. He is making the distinction between a common person (an unsaved person) and a saved person who desires to be a good minister of the gospel. You left off verse 22, where Paul continues exorting Timothy to "flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness..." It has nothing to do with someone not being able to lose their standing as having salvation or eternal life, it has to do with being a good minister. You have taken this verse out of its context and reassigned to it a wrong interpretation in order to support your thesis. It does not stand.

I do not believe I have. Sure there are other exhortations, but if anything 2 Timothy 2:24-26 testifies to those who seek to recover those that have gone astray to be patient, in meekness in teaching others in the hope hat God is peradventuring to recover some from the snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So those saints & former believers that do not depart from iniquity or still in that snare of the devil, they will be denied by Him because of that iniquity but He still abides in those that gets left behind ad because they are still His, when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation in being vessels unto dishonor in His House, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him to be saved..

 

[GodB4Us]

I see what you are saying, but it is in error and does not line up with the rest of Scripture. That is what happens when you take a passage out of its context...

But since in context of that chapter, then you should consider that the other scriptures may not be rightly applied but of course, until you show otherwise, what you seem to see as opposition in other scripture, I await your point.

None of the passages that you have given thus far supports any of your claim, primarily because you have interpreted them outside of their context.

Well, since you misunderstood me as if I was applying John Calvin use of 2 Timothy 2:13, I'd rather go to what Paul was saying.

Then I posted this;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved for that is how we become the sons of God; not by the will of the flesh nor of the will of men as if making a pledge to God, but by being born of God for believing in Him.

To wit you had posted this reply below.

No, this verse does not say that a person is saved simply because they believe. That is a half-truth that is paramount to a deceptive lie...and that, too, originated with Calvin. Calvinism teaches that a person gets saved only be believing...so you apparently believe in more calvinistic doctrine than you think you do. The main point of the text you reference, is that Christ gives those who choose to believe in Him "the power to become sons of God," it does NOT say that they "become sons of God." You need to pay attention to all of the words of a text, and not just the ones that you think support your contention. No one becomes a son of God just because they believe, that belief is only the first prerequisite a person must come to in order to get saved.

I am not a Calvinist so I would appreciate you just refer to me in how I am applying the word of truth. Do not assume anything I am writing as if I am campaigning for Calvinism. I can speak against some points of Calvinism too, but this is not about Calvinism but what the scripture says.

I understand your reasoning in regards to the sons of God but you are using the English usage to infer that meaning when this is about those whom have received Him as born of God, thus past tense; therefore they have power to live as the sons of God now that they are saved.

You keep returning to this false notion of a foundation...again, one only has that "foundation" as long as he remains abiding in Christ by walking in obedience to His Word. If a person in Christ ceases to do so, then he is cut off by God himself (John 15:1-2, 6) and is no longer abiding in Christ...he is on his way to eternal fire.

That foundation with that seal of adoption is not going anywhere, but the works that deny Him on that foundation will be burned up as that foundation shall remain because Jesus Christ has laid it forever.

2 Timothy 2:Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Ephesians 4;30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

More calvinist mantra that you claim not to believe. The word for "sealed" here is sphragizo, and it can mean either to seal (as in a signet ring marking parchment or sealing the rolled parchment with wax or clay with the dignitary's signet ring), or marked in order to show authenticity or approvedness. Most of its 14 uses in the NT Scriptures (including here) means mark of approval, it does NOT mean that you have been magically sealed in a giant spiritual zip-lock baggie preserved for heaven...that is false calvinistic doctrine that is NOT supported by Scripture one ounce.

And, even if it did mean that, one is only marked or sealed by the presence of the Holy Spirit in their life, as long as they continue to abide in Christ and walk in obedience to God...

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God gives to those who are walking in obedience to Him. (and others)

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. KJV

Big difference.

So think about that for a moment. If your version was true, they would never get the Holy Ghost because they still have to walk in obedience to Him, right, in order to the Holy Ghost.

So we go to my version to find what it is we are to obey to get the Holy Ghost.

Here is the reference in question;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now for something like that in verse 15, Jesus had to be telling His disciples the commandments before and to get that promise of the Holy Ghost, right? So let us go back and see.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

All I see is the repeated commandment over and over again to "believe Me" as God as you would believe God. That is how believers receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation when they are born again of the Spirit.

That is how I see obeying the gospel by believing in Jesus Christ for how we shall be judged by.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

We are to keep on believing in Him even as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him for there is no other way to live this reconciled relationship with God except by faith in Jesus Christ to help us to follow Him.

Supper time, brother. Looks like the Lord is leading me to stop here for now. May God cause the increase, for I know I cannot do it.

 

[Shaolin]

Not really. The only sin the Holy Spirit will convict is that they believed not on Jesus Christ. That mans those whim have never believed in Him thus never had received that seal of adoption, the Holy Ghost, are already condemned, That is how the Holy Spirit will convict them of sin for not believing in Jesus Christ because He is not in them.

Wrong answer...the blasphemy of the Spirit (BOTS) is NOT unbelief...that is false calvinistic doctrine. Hebrews 10:26-29 lines out what BOTS is. A person who has not been saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot blaspheme Him.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Almost every time you post, you come up with unbiblical interpretations of the passages that you give. This passage has NOTHING to do with blasphemy of the Spirit...nothing at all.

So believers have been misapplying that warning from Jesus as if there is a sin against the Holy Ghost that no body will be forgiven of when in actuality, it is the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ that is the unforgiveable sin.

Wrong again. Not because I say so, but because Scripture says so. No where in Scripture will you find that blasphemy of the Spirit is unbelief - that is pure cockamamie nonsense straight out of calvinism. Practically nothing that comes out of the false religion of calvinism is truth.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So the Pharisees were speaking against the miracles that Jesus was doing so as to scatter the people from believing in Him, but even though any sin against the Son will be forgiven, not having the Holy Ghost in them by believing in Jesus Christ is how unbelieving sinners are condemned by the Holy Ghost for this unforgiveable sin.

Wrong on multiple accounts. First, the Pharisees blaming Christ's miracles on satan was not blasphemy of the Spirit, Jesus only used that circumstance to bring it up. Again, blasphemy of the Spirit is lined out by Apollos in Heb. 10:26-29.
Secondly, there is no such thing as a "holy ghost." That is nonsense from the first few KJV translations where they butchered the meaning of pnuema. A ghost is supposed to be a disembodied human spirit wandering earth after death - Scripture tells us that human spirits go to heaven or to hell upon death, they do not stick around here on earth. What people mistakenly call "ghosts" are demons disguising themselves as human spirits.

That means regardless of unrepentant sinning believers and former believers that get left behind, they are still saved as those sins and iniquities for why they get left behind for will be forgiven, burned off of that foundation so they can be received by Him but as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity to be ready before the Bridegroom had come.

It means nothing of the sort, and utilization of a complete set of Biblical principles of interpretation will tell and show you that.

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[Shaolin]

I submit also for discernment with Him, that church's teachings has a way of blinding people from reading what is plainly written. So do keep that in mind as the Lord leads in this iron sharpen iron ministry between us.

The only people who have true spiritual discernment are those who are saved and walking with God. You are advocating something that does not need to be utilized when addressing Scripture, because Scripture interprets itself. If you think you need discernment in order to understand Scripture, and think that discernment takes the place of codified Biblical principles of interpretation, then you are sadly mistaken.

I posted this verse;

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

To with you had replied.

Titus 1:16 was to be in addition to the following verses below in showing that He can deny believers by their works that deny Him as per Titus 1:16 and not just by former believers verbally denying Him in 2 Timothy 2:12 BUT yet He still abides in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13.

Negative. 2 Tim. 2:13 says nothing of the sort. Look at it again...

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

If you endure hardships and such and remain faithful to the end of your life, then you will reign with Him.
If you deny Him, He will also deny you...meaning that you will go to hell instead of heaven.
Following on the heels of that statement, Paul continues with the statement that if you are faithless to God, denying His rightful place of Lord of your life, God will remain faithful to what He has lined out for us - He will not deny Himself. That last part means that He will not go against what He has given us in His Word - if you fall away and die in your sin, then you are going to open your eyes in hell, not heaven.

I lined it out very simply in my last post...if Tom is not abiding in Christ at the moment of his death, then he is going to hell, because Christ is the key to everything. There is no "He still abides in former believers" nonsense in Scripture. If you are out, then you are OUT, period. That is what Scripture teaches.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

To with you had replied;

I am not familiar with Calvin butchering of this text, nor am I referring to John Calvin, but if you are saying that Calvin meant that God will not deny the unfaithful person, that is not what is written per the end of verse 12. Christians goes through persecution and sometimes they will deny Him to save their own lives as some of our brothers & sisters have done when persecuted by Hinduists in India as they are forced to convert to Hinduism and eat camel dung. They need our prayers for the Lord to give them the courage and any other fruits of the Spirit they need to renounce Hinduism and reclaim their faith in Jesus Christ to die for Him so the Indian Nationalists that are Hinduists may believe and be saved.

Regardless of what examples you want to come up with, Scripture is clear and written in the Stone. If a person denies Christ because they are afraid to die, then they were not Christians at all. If you are afraid to die, and will deny Him because you are afraid to die, just as Scripture states, then you have denied Christ and He WILL deny you before God on judgment day...

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

A person who chooses to deny Christ because he does not want to die, is a coward. Sons of God are not cowards. Sons of God will rather take torture and whatever else into death rather than deny Jesus. Once they do deny Him, if they die before repenting and coming back to God, then they will end up in hell according to Scripture.

Anyway, saved believers can wind up denying Him under persecution just as former believers that have been led astray by the lie of he evolution theory that do not believe in the Bible & Jesus Christ any more, but Paul shares this truth.

If we believe not in verse 13 is referring to us believers and so the "he" that abideth as being faithful is Jesus Christ. That means Jesus can deny those who deny Him per he end of verse 12 but even if they believe not in Him any more, He is faithful because He still abides.

Negative. I don't know where you get that from, but it is NOT in Scripture, and that is NOT what the text states...at all. You are taking the statement out of context of the whole Bible, and then reinterpreting it to fit your personal theology. And it is in error.

I do not believe you are understanding me and so hopefully, some clarification with the Lord's help is helping you now.

In following the message of truth from 2 Timothy 2:11-13 about how He still abides in former believers even if they do get left behind when He denies them at the rapture event for being in unrepentant iniquity, Paul gives an example of a former believer to wit he says nevertheless as signifying the foundation laid by Jesus Christ and that seal of adoption that can never be removed for why even former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity or else be left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

First, I understand perfectly what you are saying, and I am showing you that your personal interpretation of the text is in error and NOT according to the Spirit's intended meaning of the text.
Second, 2 Tim. 2:11-13 does NOT say what you keep insisting that it says, it does not say that "He still abides in former believers," PERIOD. How do we know this...because of what the rest of the Scripture clearly articulate concerning a person who has fallen away from Christ, which I already gave you...over 30 passages.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Those who depart from iniquity shall be received by Him as vessels unto honor in His House, but because any that are still in iniquity is how that iniquity is denying Him for why He is denying those saints, even though He still abides in those left behind.

You keep saying "left behind" with nothing to support that contention. We are not talking about the rapture here, you are supposed to be proving the false doctrine of eternal security...but you cannot, precisely because it is a false doctrine that Scripture does NOT teach.

I do not believe I have.

After reading what I responded with, and then this from you...I have no idea what you are referring to in my rebuttal...

Sure there are other exhortations, but if anything 2 Timothy 2:24-26 testifies to those who seek to recover those that have gone astray to be patient, in meekness in teaching others in the hope hat God is peradventuring to recover some from the snare of the devil.

I whole-heartedly agree with that, that is what that passage states...but that does NOT mean that a person who has wandered away WILL come back to God...

Matthew 18:12-13
12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?
13 And IF he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.

Far too many people read over the word "IF"...that means that such a person might, or might not, return and be found. Since it is all up to our will, God cannot say yes or no...it is up to the individual.

So those saints & former believers that do not depart from iniquity or still in that snare of the devil, they will be denied by Him because of that iniquity but He still abides in those that gets left behind ad because they are still His, when they die, their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation in being vessels unto dishonor in His House, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him to be saved..

There is no "so..." because what you are stating is not what Scripture states.

I am curious...did you go over and fully examine the 30 passages that I gave you before you came back with this? Or did you ignore them...

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[Shaolin]

But since in context of that chapter, then you should consider that the other scriptures may not be rightly applied but of course, until you show otherwise, what you seem to see as opposition in other scripture, I await your point.

My point was made very succinctly...and I gave you over 30 passages that demonstrate the point.

Well, since you misunderstood me as if I was applying John Calvin use of 2 Timothy 2:13, I'd rather go to what Paul was saying.

As I stated earlier, I do not misunderstand what you are saying...I am saying that according to a complete Biblical hermeneutic applied to your claim, your claim and interpretation is FALSE...

Leviticus 18:5
You shall therefore keep My statutes and My rules; if a person does them, then he shall live: I am the LORD.


Nehemiah 9:29
And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law. Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, by which if a man keeps them, he shall live. And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.

Ezekiel 20:11
I gave them My statutes and made known to them My rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.

Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes but rejected My rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and My Sabbaths they greatly profaned. “Then I said I would pour out My wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them.”

Ezekiel 20:21
But the children rebelled against me. They did not walk in my statutes and were not careful to obey my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; they profaned my Sabbaths. "Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness.

If a person is not abiding in Christ, then Christ is not abiding in Him. The same precedent from the Old goes right into the New...if a person is NOT walking in obedience to God, then God is not abiding in him and he is on his way to eternal fire...
Again...

Acts 5:32*
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God gives to those who are walking in obedience to Him.

Romans 8:9*
But, you are in the flesh and not in the Spirit, unless the Spirit of God is dwelling within you; because if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within him, then he does not belong to Christ.

If Tom is no longer walking in obedience to God, then he no longer has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him, and if he no longer has the Spirit of God and Christ dwelling with him, then he does not belong to Christ...he is on his way to hell unless he comes to himself and gets right with God again before he dies.

Then I posted this;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved for that is how we become the sons of God; not by the will of the flesh nor of the will of men as if making a pledge to God, but by being born of God for believing in Him.

To wit you had posted this reply below.

Yes, you are rehashing the same passages that we have already gone over. And again, NO ONE is saved just because they believe in Christ...

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38*
And Peter said to them, "You all must repent from your sinful practices, and receive water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ into forgiveness of sin, and you will receive God's gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit."

"Forgiveness of sin" is what salvation is, so that is what Peter is saying here...no one...I repeat...no one according to Scripture, get saved JUST because they believe in Christ. Scripture teaches that a person must believe, repent, believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, and receive water baptism into Christ - THAT is how a person gets saved according to a strict reading of Scripture. Of course, we have an example of a person in the thief on the cross who did not have the ability to receive water baptism, and God accepted Him. That is because God is righteous, and He will ALWAYS act in righteousness...He would not be righteous if He did not accept the thief just because he could not come down off of the cross and be baptized.

I am not a Calvinist so I would appreciate you just refer to me in how I am applying the word of truth. Do not assume anything I am writing as if I am campaigning for Calvinism. I can speak against some points of Calvinism too, but this is not about Calvinism but what the scripture says.

Point taken...yet you are espousing a calvinist doctrine.

I understand your reasoning in regards to the sons of God but you are using the English usage to infer that meaning when this is about those whom have received Him as born of God, thus past tense; therefore they have power to live as the sons of God now that they are saved.

I do not use the English usage of ANY text of Scripture, because it was not written in English, it was written in Greek. Since you brought it up, this is what John 1:12 says according to the Greek:

John 1:12
But those who did receive Him, to them He gave the ability to become children of God; those who continually believe in Him:

So, again, it does NOT say what you claim that it says.

That foundation with that seal of adoption is not going anywhere, but the works that deny Him on that foundation will be burned up as that foundation shall remain because Jesus Christ has laid it forever.

Again...the word "seal" there does not mean what you think it means, and I explained it in simple terms...it means "marked" not sealed. You are not sealed in adoption, that is not how Jewish adoption works. Adoption is another covenant relationship, and that covenant relationship makes a person adopted as the child of parents not his own according to the flesh, and he only remains an adopted child of theirs AS LONG AS he continues to abide by the covenant law of that adoption covenant agreement. If he ceases to continue in that covenant of adoption, then he is no longer their adopted child.

You are trying to understand, I think, but you are uneducated in covenant. Everything in Scripture, old and new testament Scripture, are based in covenant, and run according to covenant principles of operation, just as God has designed things to be. Without understanding covenant and how it works, your interpretation of many things goes askew. I would suggest learning about ANE covenants so that you can help yourself understand Scripture. Here...

Ancient Near Eastern Covenanting

2 Timothy 2:Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Ephesians 4;30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Sure...the Timothy text says that God knows those who are His...the key words there are "that are His," and if Tom is no longer abiding in Christ, then Tom is NOT God's child.
The Ephesians verse, again, uses the same word we discussed earlier...sphragizo, meaning marked, NOT sealed...and you are marked as God's possession by the indwelling Holy Spirit. But, if you are no longer abiding in Christ, then you no longer have His Spirit...therefore, you are no longer marked out "unto the day of redemption." You are again taking a calvinist twist upon a word and texts that are unbiblical.

Do you believe that Mormonism contains truth? Do you believe that JW's contain truth? I will go out on a limb here and say that you do not. Why, then, will you adopt as part of your theology, any doctrine that comes out of calvinism? The very fact that it comes out of calvinism means that it is WRONG and NOT Biblical...no matter how you try to convince others that it is.

Furthermore, the fact that the Hebrews verse says that the kingdom cannot be moved, has absolutely NO bearing upon what you are claiming...unless, of course...again...you are taking it out of its context and reading into it what the text does NOT say nor mean. This seems to be what you are doing again.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. KJV

Big difference.

Yes, there is a big difference...I gave you what the Greek actually states. the KJV is one of the WORST versions of Scripture in the world, that is a fact that any person even beginning studying Greek can attest to (if they have the right teacher).

So think about that for a moment. If your version was true, they would never get the Holy Ghost because they still have to walk in obedience to Him, right, in order to the Holy Ghost.

Again, there is no such thing as a holy ghost. Secondly, my translation of the Greek is true...and your claim is correct as long as they refuse to align themselves with God and begin to walk in obedience to them after getting saved.

So we go to my version to find what it is we are to obey to get the Holy Ghost.

There is no holy ghost, there is only a Holy Spirit. Secondly, we don't have to go to your version...obedience to God is obedience to God, period.

Here is the reference in question;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No...there is no reference in question. This has NOTHING to do with retaining the Holy Spirit after receiving salvation, it has everything to do with the Spirit being sent after Christ's glorification. You are again reading into the text what it does not say and what it does not mean.

Now for something like that in verse 15, Jesus had to be telling His disciples the commandments before and to get that promise of the Holy Ghost, right?

Wrong, that is not what I stated, and that is not what Scripture states.

All I see is the repeated commandment over and over again to "believe Me" as God as you would believe God. That is how believers receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation when they are born again of the Spirit.

Negative. Again, obedience to God is obedience to God. Loving on others...doing what the Spirit might tell us to do...and many more examples, like this:

Acts 8:29
And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot."

And Philip did what the Spirit told him to do...that is obeying God.

That is how I see obeying the gospel by believing in Jesus Christ for how we shall be judged by.

Then what you see is in error, because that is not what Scripture teaches. You cherry pick what you want out of Scripture and ignore the passages that your version of things directly contradicts. That is not truth seeking, that is bias defending, and very few bias defenders make it to heaven, my friend.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

We are to keep on believing in Him even as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him for there is no other way to live this reconciled relationship with God except by faith in Jesus Christ to help us to follow Him.

Absolutely true...but faith is NOT the all in all like you keep putting out there. If you believe, but do not act, then your belief becomes useless and can't save a fly (if flies needed saving).

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[Shaolin]

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I have already gone over this with you, your interpretation of this passage is wrong. Not because I say so, but because the facts of the text and context demonstrate it. Read verse 10 again...salvation which is "in Christ." If you are not in Christ, then you don't have salvation, that's how the new covenant works.

Au contraire. Jesus laid the foundation that cannot be removed in every believer, but He will judge what was built on that foundation. If any one defiles the temple of God, He willl destroy with physical death, but they are still saved.

Nope...you keep falling back on the same nonsense that I have already demonstrated is a false interpretation on YOUR part. That text addresses ministers only, NOT the average Christian. And if you reject that fact, then you are rejecting the clear words of Paul in the context.

So those saints that are at the Church at Thyatira in the Book of Revelation, if they do not depart from iniquity, they will be left behind as cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be awarded with death, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

Negative...you are again reading into the text what it does NOT say and what it does NOT mean. When you continue to do that, you pervert the Word of God and teach others your perverted theology. The text does not say what you claim, at all.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So even though left behind to die, they are still saved, as their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as the scripture testify below..

Nope, pure carnal reasoning that the text does NOT say, imply, or insinuate. Again, you are reading into the text what you want it to say, and in doing so, you pervert the meaning of the text.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Nothing in any of these passages supports your contention. I suspect that you are again reading into them what they do not say nor what they mean...

Stopping here for this point of truth.

First, God has nothing to do with what you are saying, because it directly contradicts what Scripture teaches.
Second, this is not a "point of truth" because, again, what you claim is in direct opposition to what the Scriptures teach.

I also notice that you have not addressed the 30 passages that I gave you that demonstrate your entire claim to be unbiblical...still waiting for you to try to explain them away...

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[GodB4Us]

Wrong answer...the blasphemy of the Spirit (BOTS) is NOT unbelief...that is false calvinistic doctrine. Hebrews 10:26-29 lines out what BOTS is. A person who has not been saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot blaspheme Him.

You left out verse 30 for why your application of those words out of context is missing this important truth.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

They are still His people.

Almost every time you post, you come up with unbiblical interpretations of the passages that you give. This passage has NOTHING to do with blasphemy of the Spirit...nothing at all.

Seeing how you were wrong in applying Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context of verse 30, how does that affect your view about eternal security now? And no, you do not have to become a Calvinist for correcting yourself. I am not a Calvinist even though you seem to keep referring to Calvinism when we are discussing scripture.

Wrong again. Not because I say so, but because Scripture says so. No where in Scripture will you find that blasphemy of the Spirit is unbelief - that is pure cockamamie nonsense straight out of calvinism. Practically nothing that comes out of the false religion of calvinism is truth.

Prove that Calvinism says that that unbelief is the blasphemy of the Spirit. Don't want to? Then stop referring to it if you are not going to prove it. Fair is fair, brother. Stop referring to Calvinism unless you are actually going to reference it.

Wrong on multiple accounts. First, the Pharisees blaming Christ's miracles on satan was not blasphemy of the Spirit, Jesus only used that circumstance to bring it up. Again, blasphemy of the Spirit is lined out by Apollos in Heb. 10:26-29.
Secondly, there is no such thing as a "holy ghost." That is nonsense from the first few KJV translations where they butchered the meaning of pnuema. A ghost is supposed to be a disembodied human spirit wandering earth after death - Scripture tells us that human spirits go to heaven or to hell upon death, they do not stick around here on earth. What people mistakenly call "ghosts" are demons disguising themselves as human spirits.

Since Hebrews 10:30 refutes your application of Hebrews 10:26-29, you should reconsider with Him the truth in His words.

In the context of the message given, the Pharisees were attempting to instill fear in the multitude that were starting to believe in Jesus Christ because of the miracles by accusing Jesus by how He was doing it. You cannot say that they were directly blaspheming the Holy Ghost as if He was the devil. They were accusing Jesus by how He was doing those miracles, thus by His words in context, hoping to scatter potential believers away from believing in Him.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

When you read verse 30 in context of verses 31-32, we see what the Pharisees were doing as they were attempting to persuade the people from believing in Him as they did not believe in Him neither. So the sin that the Holy Ghost will convict of is the sin of unbelief as that is the only unforgiveable sin there is.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

There was a girl on a Christian forum that testified before she was saved that she had blasphemied the holy Ghost by insulting the Person of the Holy Ghost, but then she got saved. Why would God save her if that sin is as you understood it to be?

So that is why He led me to the truth that the only sin the Holy Spirit will convict of is the sin of unbelief and by not being in those unbelievers is probably how they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of that unforgiveable sin.

And John Calvin has no part in leading me to that conclusion.

It means nothing of the sort, and utilization of a complete set of Biblical principles of interpretation will tell and show you that.

..

Hopefully, the Lord will reassess your line of thinking in light of Hebrews 10:30.

 

[GodB4Us]

The only people who have true spiritual discernment are those who are saved and walking with God. You are advocating something that does not need to be utilized when addressing Scripture, because Scripture interprets itself. If you think you need discernment in order to understand Scripture, and think that discernment takes the place of codified Biblical principles of interpretation, then you are sadly mistaken.

@Phedup & @God's Truth

We all are at different growth in our walk in the Lord and so to infer that those whom have gone astray or in a fault, cannot receive correction from others, let alone from the Lord is forgetting that it is the Lord that ministers.

That means those who think higher of themselves, should not think that at all.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

We all have our part to serve Him by and sometimes, those who serve Him are subject to pruning also so that they may bear more fruit.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

It is when we stop receiving correction as in that pruning is when we refuse to abide in Him & His words as His disciples.

Negative. 2 Tim. 2:13 says nothing of the sort. Look at it again...

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

If you endure hardships and such and remain faithful to the end of your life, then you will reign with Him.
If you deny Him, He will also deny you...meaning that you will go to hell instead of heaven.
Following on the heels of that statement, Paul continues with the statement that if you are faithless to God, denying His rightful place of Lord of your life, God will remain faithful to what He has lined out for us - He will not deny Himself. That last part means that He will not go against what He has given us in His Word - if you fall away and die in your sin, then you are going to open your eyes in hell, not heaven.

With the KJV, I see this truth, brother since this is about Him abiding in former believers for how and why He is faithful when you look at verse 13 below.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Now when we look at verse 10; I see that the eternal glory that comes with our salvation that we are to seek for all our brothers & sisters to obtain is to be that vessel unto honor in His House as that is that eternal glory spoken of.

This is why in seeking that eternal glory of being that vessel unto honor in His House for all our brothers & sisters is why even former believers are to be called to depart from iniquity so they too can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Now may the Lord grab your attention; If believers depart from iniquity to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House, then WHO are the vessels unto dishonor in His House?

Answer; those that He still abide in, even former believers, that did not depart from iniquity.

I lined it out very simply in my last post...if Tom is not abiding in Christ at the moment of his death, then he is going to hell, because Christ is the key to everything. There is no "He still abides in former believers" nonsense in Scripture. If you are out, then you are OUT, period. That is what Scripture teaches.

Can you show scripture that Tom is going to hell? No. You cannot. In the context of the message given in 2 Timothy 2:10-21, saved believers in iniquity as well as former believers that get left behind are still saved because they are the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House. That is why they are called also the "least" in the kingdom of Heaven for breaking even the least of His commandments & teaches others so.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regardless of what examples you want to come up with, Scripture is clear and written in the Stone. If a person denies Christ because they are afraid to die, then they were not Christians at all. If you are afraid to die, and will deny Him because you are afraid to die, just as Scripture states, then you have denied Christ and He WILL deny you before God on judgment day...

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

A person who chooses to deny Christ because he does not want to die, is a coward. Sons of God are not cowards. Sons of God will rather take torture and whatever else into death rather than deny Jesus. Once they do deny Him, if they die before repenting and coming back to God, then they will end up in hell according to Scripture.

Not surprising how a different Bible version is responsible for your belief.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. KJV

So Revelation 21:8 is for those who had never believed in Him for why He is not abiding in them as that is the sin that the Holy Ghost will convict of.

Let us look at another passage. After addressing each of the 7 churches in Revelation, I have found that when it is written in the end of "He that overcometh", I would say that "He" is Jesus Christ as those gifts are for those saints that did not heed His words in being ready for the Bridegroom; whereas five needed to repent whereas two needed to hold fast, and so if they fail that, then Jesus overcomes that for them because the gifts received are for those resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings from all over the world in that 1000 year reign of Christ. Which is a lengthy topic in and of itself but here is one where He overcomes and the promise for those that get left behind

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Strong's Concordance has the Greek word "ov un" from which we have "will not" in English from is a double negative, meaning He would never do that.

Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary

"i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378."

You can check with your own sources for the definition of that Greek word to compare & mayhap confirm, but still on God to cause the incease..

Coupled with this promise for those resurrected after the great tribulation as seen here where the power of the second death is not over them,

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Negative. I don't know where you get that from, but it is NOT in Scripture, and that is NOT what the text states...at all. You are taking the statement out of context of the whole Bible, and then reinterpreting it to fit your personal theology. And it is in error.

Like you did with Hebrews 10:26-29 by excluding verse 30?

First, I understand perfectly what you are saying, and I am showing you that your personal interpretation of the text is in error and NOT according to the Spirit's intended meaning of the text.
Second, 2 Tim. 2:11-13 does NOT say what you keep insisting that it says, it does not say that "He still abides in former believers," PERIOD. How do we know this...because of what the rest of the Scripture clearly articulate concerning a person who has fallen away from Christ, which I already gave you...over 30 passages.

Well I guess I better go back and finish that long post from before in addressing those 30 passages after this post, but surely you see by now there is just cause to take pause in how you are applying scripture to mean.

You keep saying "left behind" with nothing to support that contention. We are not talking about the rapture here, you are supposed to be proving the false doctrine of eternal security...but you cannot, precisely because it is a false doctrine that Scripture does NOT teach.

I believe the rapture is when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As He will judge what we built on that foundation in that day 1 Corinthians 3:13

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And that having defiled the temple of God which is our physical bodies ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 )

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

For which death is the reward for defiling the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 )

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

For those that get left behind per Revelation 2:18-25 to be judged with death

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

And yet they are saved 1 Corinthians 3:15

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

To be with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 regardless of having been denied by Him and left behind to become resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation which all believers should be afraid of

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I whole-heartedly agree with that, that is what that passage states...but that does NOT mean that a person who has wandered away WILL come back to God...

Matthew 18:12-13
12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?
13 And IF he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.

Far too many people read over the word "IF"...that means that such a person might, or might not, return and be found. Since it is all up to our will, God cannot say yes or no...it is up to the individual.

I do not believe you are reading that right. The "if" in verse 13 is referring to what He will do when He does find it, and that is rejoice.

When you remind yourself what a Good Shepherd He is, the if here is about when a sheep is lost, He will go and find it, including those get get left behind for not being ready as found abiding in Him as His sheep.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Important words as citing the Father's will. So hopefully, He is helping you to see that you are not rightly dividing the word of truth as you thought you were and mayhap restore the joy of your salvation too.

There is no "so..." because what you are stating is not what Scripture states.

I am curious...did you go over and fully examine the 30 passages that I gave you before you came back with this? Or did you ignore them...

..

Well, God be willing, I shall go back to that long post and with His help, address those 30 passages.

 

[GodB4Us]

Absolutely wrong, and in great error. Salvation and eternal life are not the same things. Salvation is the new birth, a work of God alone - but eternal life is maintained by YOU, according to Scripture (even what we just read). If you cease to walk in obedience to God, regardless of whether you got saved in the past or not, then you are on your way to hell...that is what Scripture teaches...

II Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

@Phedup & @God's Truth

That is only addressing the state of the saved believer as being worse than he was before he was saved. There is no reference of him going to hell as a result.

I John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

Hell is not referenced for all who die a physical death that are living in sin.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Physical death is not hell. A lot of saved believers have come and died. Are they in hell because they died a physical death? No.

Matthew 13:18-21
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

only the first one that had the seed snatched away is unsaved but the 3 that had received the seed are saved, but only one bore fruit plentiful whereas the other 2, where one fell away from the faith and yet His seed is still in that soil and the other was caught up in the worries of the world that did not bear fruit either but still the seed is in them and thus those 2 out of 3 that were bad results are still saved because they had still the seed which is Christ.

John 16:1
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.”

John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain abiding in Me, he is rejected, cut off and thrown away like a branch and withers; and they are gathered together, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

I Timothy 5:11
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry

I Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

II Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to continuously renew themselves to the quality of repentance that they had at the first, seeing as they continually crucify to themselves the Son of God, putting Him to continuous public shame.

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Colossians 2:18
Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

I Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

II Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the Faith.

Romans 1:28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up (rejected) to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

II Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you . . . unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (literally: “unless you are rejected”)

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit (worthless, rejected, disqualified) for any good work.

Hebrews 6:8
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless (rejected, disqualified) and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Romans 1:21-32
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


Demas

Colossians 4:14
Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.

Philemon 1:24
and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

II Timothy 4:10
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Hymenaeus

I Timothy 1:19-20
possessing doctrines of the faith and good conscience, concerning some who, after rejecting those articles of faith, they have been shipwrecked, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

II Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

II Peter 2:20-22
Because if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."


ALL of the above passages (32 in all) teach that a saved person can fail to walk with God, fall away from Christ, and end up in hell. Remember, God does not contradict Himself, therefore, you need to re-align your interpretations of the passages you hold to that you think state a saved person cannot end up in hell, because your interpretation directly contradicts what God's Word says. His Word is not in error, it is your interpretation of it that is in error. And remember, this is a calvinist doctrine you are arguing for, while claiming at the same time out of the same mouth that calvinism is a heresy.

None of those passages cites hell as the destination for falling away from the faith. There are warnings for not abiding in Him as His disciples, as they can become castaways, but although "excommunicated" from the marriage Supper as disqualified for being in iniquity, they are not cast out of His kingdom of heaven as they shall become vessel unto dishonor in His House because that is who and where the vessels unto dishonor comes from; those not abiding in Him.

To be fair, I shall address scripture where hell is used that believers will be cast in for but it is not what you think because the Greek word from which that word hell is derived from is geena or "Gehenna: which is a garbage dump in one respect but the Lord calls it the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

Keep in mind that is what the Lord means when referring to Gehenna since those left behind will die a physical death. The references are Matthew 5:29-30 & Matthew 18:9 & Mark 9:45 & Mark 9:47 & Luke 12:4-5

I touch on Luke 12;4-5 for those who deny Him to save their physical lives.

Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

It is an error to apply Gehenna to the after life when Gehenna has always been used in the Old Testament as either that garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem or that valley of slaughter; thus places on earth.

Since a third of the earth will be burned up per Revelation 8:7 and Babylon USA will have dead saints in it as left behind to die; Revelation 18:1-24, that is the valley of slaughter right there,

This is applied to how the rapture is when God will judge His House first since after the fall of Babylon USA, the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone.

Do note how those saints are still called saints?

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

So there is necessity for saved believers and former belevers to look to Him for help to depart from iniquities in these latter days where faith is hard to find because when the Bridegroom comes, that is when He will judge His House first.

 

[GodB4Us]

@Shaolin & @Phedup & @God's Truth

I realize that there may be some lingering contention to all of this conclusion like the soul & body is destroyed as mentioned in this reference about believers being cast into that hell which is on earth when you compare Matthew 10:28 with Luke 12:4

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. KJV

Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The problem here is that one has to consider that this destruction is on earth for where that hell is. So soul does not always refer to the man's spirit.

The English word "soul" was derived from the Greek word "psuche" rather than the Greek word "pneuma' where "spirit" is derived from.

The Greek word "psuche" is defined in Strong's Concordance as "from yucw - psucho 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma - pneuma 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zwh - zoe 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew fagw - phago 5315, 7307 and chay 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you."

I apply the definition of vitality to what that soul is referring to.

There is another Greek word "apollumi" to look at from which the English word "destroy" was translated from. It is defined as "from apo - apo 575 and the base of oleqroV - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish."

So I see the difference between the vessels unto honor in His House and the vessels unto dishonor in His House in this wise.

Below are the vessels unto honor in His House that can never die being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Matthew 10:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

But those resurrected after the great tribulation will only have the power of the second death not over them. Thus inferring that the power of the first death still has over them for why they need to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So imagine the destruction as in the loss of that vitality as God enables, from being that vessel unto honor for why God has to destroy that vitality of being like the angels that never die, to becoming vessels unto dishonor where only the power of the second death is not over them.

Like Esau weeping for giving up his birthright for a meal.

Like the prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance for wild living, and although he can never get it back, he will find that he is still son.

by the grace of God & His help, is how I apply what that soul as in that vitality of what could have been being of the firstfruits of the resurrection and how it was destroyed as in lost and somewhat marred because they are still saved but yet not being like the angels that live forever and cannot die.

Now after the Great White Throne Judgment when death & hell is cast into the lake of fire, then the power of the first death will no longer be over those saints either as added with the power of the second death not being over them.

So once again, easy believism is how we are saved because it pleases God to save those that believe the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God............. 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

Also Easy believism should also be applied to how we follow Jesus by trusting Him to be our Good Shepherd in helping us to follow Him since we can do nothing without Him.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

So if any believer out there that doubts you are saved now, may the Lord restore the joy of your salvation by knowing since you had first believed in Him, you have been saved since.

So if any brother out there that has trouble with habitual sin in your life, may you go before that throne of grace asking Jesus Christ for help in your time of need & trust Him as your Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him; so believe Him.

 

[God's Truth]

@Shaolin & @Phedup & @God's Truth
I realize that there may be some lingering contention to all of this conclusion like the soul & body is destroyed as mentioned in this reference about believers being cast into that hell which is on earth when you compare Matthew 10:28 with Luke 12:4

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. KJV

Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The problem here is that one has to consider that this destruction is on earth for where that hell is. So soul does not always refer to the man's spirit.

A soul is a physical body made alive by its spirit.
When the physical body dies, the spirit likes on in consciousness.
The body because a dead body.

The English word "soul" was derived from the Greek word "psuche" rather than the Greek word "pneuma' where "spirit" is derived from.

The Greek word "psuche" is defined in Strong's Concordance as "from yucw - psucho 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma - pneuma 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zwh - zoe 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew fagw - phago 5315, 7307 and chay 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you."

I apply the definition of vitality to what that soul is referring to.

There is another Greek word "apollumi" to look at from which the English word "destroy" was translated from. It is defined as "from apo - apo 575 and the base of oleqroV - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish."

The word 'destroy' doesn't necessarily mean death. A person can be a drug addict and the drug addiction can be destroying their life while they live. All sin can destroy your life while you live.

So I see the difference between the vessels unto honor in His House and the vessels unto dishonor in His House in this wise.

Below are the vessels unto honor in His House that can never die being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Matthew 10:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

But those resurrected after the great tribulation will only have the power of the second death not over them. Thus inferring that the power of the first death still has over them for why they need to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations.

What?
The first resurrection is when we are saved, we are placed in the heavenly realms with Jesus on the throne.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The second resurrection is when Jesus comes against and raises us all from the dead.

Those who were NOT in the first resurrection (saved before Jesus comes) they will be put in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So imagine the destruction as in the loss of that vitality as God enables, from being that vessel unto honor for why God has to destroy that vitality of being like the angels that never die, to becoming vessels unto dishonor where only the power of the second death is not over them.

Like Esau weeping for giving up his birthright for a meal.

The Bible not only says Esau gave up his birthright, it also says that he is godless. The Bible says God hates Esau.

Hebrews 12:16 And see to it that no one becomes an immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

Like the prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance for wild living, and although he can never get it back, he will find that he is still son.

The prodigal son was a son, he left and came back. So this shows that we have to repent even after being saved.

by the grace of God & His help, is how I apply what that soul as in that vitality of what could have been being of the firstfruits of the resurrection and how it was destroyed as in lost and somewhat marred because they are still saved but yet not being like the angels that live forever and cannot die.

Now after the Great White Throne Judgment when death & hell is cast into the lake of fire, then the power of the first death will no longer be over those saints either as added with the power of the second death not being over them.

So once again, easy believism is how we are saved because it pleases God to save those that believe the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God............. 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

Also Easy believism should also be applied to how we follow Jesus by trusting Him to be our Good Shepherd in helping us to follow Him since we can do nothing without Him.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

So if any believer out there that doubts you are saved now, may the Lord restore the joy of your salvation by knowing since you had first believed in Him, you have been saved since.

So if any brother out there that has trouble with habitual sin in your life, may you go before that throne of grace asking Jesus Christ for help in your time of need & trust Him as your Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him; so believe Him.

When someone wants to be saved, they are to Jesus, confess and repent of their sins to him, believe and have faith that his blood shed on the cross washes them clean, and then call on Jesus to live in you, to give you his Spirit.

If anyone sins after they are saved, they are to repent and can have forgiveness.
We are to work our our salvation and train ourselves to do good.

 

[Shaolin]

You left out verse 30 for why your application of those words out of context is missing this important truth.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

They are still His people.

First, you have the same reading comprehension problem that 'gods truth' has...you don't understand clear English when you read it. Verse 30 has no bearing upon the topic, and the quote at the end of verse 30 does not pertain to those in verses 26-29...but you add them because you THINK they support your nonsense.

Scripture is clear, and I will not debate a clear Scriptural precedent with someone who can't read and understand simple things. No one is a child of God if they are NOT in Christ. In case you can't understand that simple statement, made manifest in the NT Scriptures over and over again...the person Apollos addresses in verses 26-29 ARE NO LONGER IN CHRIST. That should be clear to anyone with a working brain because he says such a person has trodden underfoot the Son of God. On top of that, he says they have "counted the blood of the covenant" as "an unholy thing" and in case you can't understand that simple statement, the blood of the covenant is the blood of Christ...on and on.

Those he addresses in verse 26-29 were saved at one time, the text makes that abundantly clear - just as he also makes abundantly clear that they are NO LONGER in Christ because of what they have done.

We are done. I will not argue with someone whose only goal is to protect their false iedologies and who won't listen to what Scripture clearly states because they are too steeped in defending their bias.

..

 

[God's Truth]

A soul is a physical body made alive by its spirit.
When the physical body dies, the spirit lives on in consciousness.
The body becomes a dead body.

The word 'destroy' doesn't necessarily mean death. A person can be a drug addict and the drug addiction can be destroying their life while they live. All sin can destroy your life while you live.

What?
The first resurrection is when we are saved, we are placed in the heavenly realms with Jesus on the throne.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The second resurrection is when Jesus comes again and raises us all from the dead.

Those who were NOT in the first resurrection (saved before Jesus comes) they will be put in the lake of fire.


The Bible not only says Esau gave up his birthright, it also says that he is godless. The Bible says God hates Esau.

Hebrews 12:16 And see to it that no one becomes an immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.


The prodigal son was a son, he left and came back. So this shows that we have to repent even after being saved.

When someone wants to be saved, they are to come to Jesus, confess and repent of their sins to him, believe and have faith that his blood shed on the cross washes them clean, and then call on Jesus to live in you, to give you his Spirit.

If anyone sins after they are saved, they are to repent and can have forgiveness.
We are to work out our salvation and train ourselves to do good.

A lot of typos in that post. lol Corrections made.

 

[God's Truth]

First, you have the same reading comprehension problem that 'gods truth' has...you don't understand clear English when you read it. Verse 30 has no bearing upon the topic, and the quote at the end of verse 30 does not pertain to those in verses 26-29...but you add them because you THINK they support your nonsense.

What are you talking about? What are you saying I said about what scripture?

 

[GodB4Us]

First, you have the same reading comprehension problem that 'gods truth' has...you don't understand clear English when you read it. Verse 30 has no bearing upon the topic, and the quote at the end of verse 30 does not pertain to those in verses 26-29...but you add them because you THINK they support your nonsense.

Scripture is clear, and I will not debate a clear Scriptural precedent with someone who can't read and understand simple things. No one is a child of God if they are NOT in Christ. In case you can't understand that simple statement, made manifest in the NT Scriptures over and over again...the person Apollos addresses in verses 26-29 ARE NO LONGER IN CHRIST. That should be clear to anyone with a working brain because he says such a person has trodden underfoot the Son of God. On top of that, he says they have "counted the blood of the covenant" as "an unholy thing" and in case you can't understand that simple statement, the blood of the covenant is the blood of Christ...on and on.

Those he addresses in verse 26-29 were saved at one time, the text makes that abundantly clear - just as he also makes abundantly clear that they are NO LONGER in Christ because of what they have done.

We are done. I will not argue with someone whose only goal is to protect their false iedologies and who won't listen to what Scripture clearly states because they are too steeped in defending their bias.

..

@God's Truth @Chad @Christ4Ever @B-A-C @Phedup @Mayflower @NetChaplain @Bethel

Since he is done. I shall continue for all that are reading this;

There is no adding to His words when verse 30 is right after the verses of 26-29.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

My contentions in addressing the issue that in spite of God's wrath falling on those people, He is still calling them His people, thus still saved.

We can look in this same book of Hebrews to see how God will chasten and even scourge every child He receives when they do not look to Him for help in laying aside every weight & sin daily in running that race..

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

See how He is still the Father in dealing with the children of disobedience? Here is the prophesy regarding the New Covenant hidden in the Psalms.

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

See how the scripture still addresses them as His children when they sin without repenting as He will visits them with stripes ? That is God keeping His everlasting New Covenant to all who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name.

Now look at those believers not found abiding in Him as they get left behind with the unbelievers at the pre great tribulation rapture event as they are still called His servants for why they are getting stripes for not being ready to go.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

This is why saved believers and saved former believes left behind will be chastened by the Father for not being ready as found abiding in His Son to be received by Him as vessels unto honor for when the Bridegroom comes, but they are still saved for why they are "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready to go.

So may every saved believer out there right now reading this, go before that throne of grace and asks Jesus Christ in trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you discern the lies & sins to depart from iniquity in following Him today.

1 John 3:33 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[God's Truth]

@God's Truth @Chad @Christ4Ever @B-A-C @Phedup @Mayflower

Since he is done. I shall continue for all that are reading this;

There is no adding to His words when verse 30 is right after the verses of 26-29.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

My contentions in addressing the issue that in spite of God's wrath falling on those people, He is still calling them His people, thus still saved.

Right, and Revelations shows that some will suffer wrath and repent.
God wants those who believe in Him to obey and repent.

He says some will be beaten with some blows and some with more blows.

Revelation 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

See how the scripture still addresses them as His children when they sin without repenting as He will visits them with stripes ? That is God keeping His everlasting New Covenant to all who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name.

Maybe you are arguing with others about it, because I agree. The thing I don't agree with you about is that you say some believers won't be at the wedding supper. Show me scripture to support that.

This is why saved believers and saved former believes left behind will be chastened by the Father for not being ready as found abiding in His Son to be received by Him as vessels unto honor for when the Bridegroom comes, but they are still saved for why they are "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready to go.

So may every saved believer out there right now reading this, go before that throne of grace and asks Jesus Christ in trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you discern the lies & sins to depart from iniquity in following Him today.

You have to check yourself for preaching falseness though, you preach against the way to get saved. That is serious.