Arguments for OSAS

[Butch5]

So you think that no gentile needs to be regenerated? That's odd. Are you a believer in replacement theology?

Gentiles are born of God, Jews are born again. Jews need to be born again because Israel is God's son. Thus being Israelites, they were born of God once already. They thought that was sufficient for them to gain entrance to the Kingdom. Jesus corrects Nicodemus' incorrect assumption telling him he must be born again.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

They were born of God once before.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Gentiles are born of God, Jews are born again. Jews need to be born again because Israel is God's son. Thus being Israelites, they were born of God once already. They thought that was sufficient for them to gain entrance to the Kingdom. Jesus corrects Nicodemus' incorrect assumption telling him he must be born again.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

They were born of God once before.

Jesus speaking to Nicodemus was not only for the Jew; it was witness to the world: "You must be born again." Just like John 3:16 is a witness to the world. Just like John 14:1-4 is a witness to the world. And Matthew, a witness to the world, records Jesus saying: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20.

You wrest scripture to your own destruction. I pray you are not a teacher, for you are blind if you believe John's book or Matthew's book for that matter is to the Jew only.

Your pride is killing you and you don't even know it. Repent and believe or you will be condemned eternally.

I know I'm eternally saved, for God's word says so. You can't say that though, can you. Because you fear you are going to lose the precious God has given you. How sad for you. I pray your eyes are opened and you, too, will know you are eternally saved. Stop doubting.

I dont rely on false teachers like you, or cult leaders like those in AU. I'm born again, saved for eternity to be with my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.

With that, God's blessing to you and yours.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Jesus told Nicodemus, a Jew, he must be born again. If we understand how it all works through the Bible, would see these things. However, when pastors and theologians teach us to hop through the Bible, take sentences from here and there, and string them together to pretend they say what they don't say, we never really see what the Bible is actually saying. That there are millions of Christian who say they are born again, shows how unbelievably widespread this problem is.

You border on heresy. You must be born again. "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[Downunder]

Really? People are born again, have the confident assurance of having received the most precious gift of eternal life, Jesus calls them HIS, the Holy Spirit indwells their lives, and you think they just walk away?

Yes that is correct - believers do this.
Why? I do not know, but I have seen people walking in the Spirit for 20 years get tired? get complacent? get bitter? believe another gospel? who knows - but it happens.
And yes they were truly saved and had miracles and healings in their lives, but somehow for whatever reasons they quench the Spirit and their self-will rises again.

 

[Butch5]

If we look at the Bible and salvation in its truest sense, without people redefining words are adding their theological twists, then we could conclude that no salvation can't be lost. But, what is salvation and what are we saved from? Salvation is receiving eternal life. What are we saved from? We are saved from death. So, in its truest sense salvation isn't receive until the Resurrection. It's at that time that we are saved from death. Until then everyone will die. Once a person is resurrected and receives eternal life, it won't be lost.

But, that's not what people typically mean when they ask if salvation can be lost. They mean can a believer be lost after believing and before death. The answer to that question is a resounding yes, as Jesus has made abundantly clear.

 

[Butch5]

You border on heresy. You must be born again. "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 15:24 KJV)

His ministry was to the Jews. They were born of God once before. That wasn't sufficient. they needed to be born again. Take your Bible software and look up the phrase "born gain". You'll find that of the three times the phrase appears the audience is always Jews

 

[Butch5]

You border on heresy. You must be born again. "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

It's not bordering on heresy. It's understanding the Bible in context. The Bible isn't a bunch of disjointed verses of Scripture that we just pick and choose from when we need to make point. It is a cohesive whole from start to finish

 

[Waggles]

His ministry was to the Jews. They were born of God once before. That wasn't sufficient. they needed to be born again. Take your Bible software and look up the phrase "born gain". You'll find that of the three times the phrase appears the audience is always Jews

Hhhmmm this is new to me - I have not heard this doctrine before.
So how do non-Jews get salvation these days according to your understanding of the gospel?

 

[JerryfromMass]

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 15:24 KJV)

His ministry was to the Jews. They were born of God once before. That wasn't sufficient. they needed to be born again. Take your Bible software and look up the phrase "born gain". You'll find that of the three times the phrase appears the audience is always Jews

Jesus came to the lost children of Israel, but not just for them.

God chose Abram, Isaac, and Israel and God had a purpose for Israel to be a light to all the nations of the world for salvation. God's purpose for Israel was frustrated by a rebellious people who not only killed God's prophets, but outright rejected God time after time. The prophets could not provoke Israel to follow through with God's purpose for them, so God became a man and attempted to reconcile HIMSELF to them in order to get them to follow through with HIS original intended purpose. As a man, God came to provoke Israel into being the light to the nations, which was what God purposed Israel from the beginning. God was rejected again, this time as God in the flesh. Then God gave the light to HIS disciples to go out into all the nations, baptising and teaching them all HE had commanded, including HIS command YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. And here we are 2000 later, and Jews and gentiles are being born again into the Body of Christ.

 

[JerryfromMass]

It's not bordering on heresy. It's understanding the Bible in context. The Bible isn't a bunch of disjointed verses of Scripture that we just pick and choose from when we need to make point. It is a cohesive whole from start to finish

It's false teaching, what you're suggesting. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Butch5]

Hhhmmm this is new to me - I have not heard this doctrine before.
So how do non-Jews get salvation these days according to your understanding of the gospel?

Hi Waggles,

The process is the same, it's just a different name. Jesus also calls it being born from above. It's the same for both Jews and Gentiles. The only difference is that for the Jewish believer it is a second birth of God, for the Gentile it is the first birth of God. Peter writing to Jews speaks of them being born again, while John writing to Gentiles speaks of their being born of God. Same process, different name.

The only reason I even mentioned it was to point out how all of these different terms are just tossed about with no regard to how they are used in the Bible. There is so much "Christian speak" that is simply not Biblical. Half of the problems in these debates is dealing with things that aren't even Biblical concepts.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus came to the lost children of Israel, but not just for them.

God chose Abram, Isaac, and Israel and God had a purpose for Israel to be a light to all the nations of the world for salvation. God's purpose for Israel was frustrated by a rebellious people who not only killed God's prophets, but outright rejected God time after time. The prophets could not provoke Israel to follow through with God's purpose for them, so God became a man and attempted to reconcile HIMSELF to them in order to get them to follow through with HIS original intended purpose. As a man, God came to provoke Israel into being the light to the nations, which was what God purposed Israel from the beginning. God was rejected again, this time as God in the flesh. Then God gave the light to HIS disciples to go out into all the nations, baptising and teaching them all HE had commanded, including HIS command YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. And here we are 2000 later, and Jews and gentiles are being born again into the Body of Christ.

I didn't say He didn't come "for" the Gentiles. I said His ministry was "to" the Jews.

Once again, the phrase "born again" is only used in relation to Israel. Get your Bible software, look up the phrase "born Again" and take notice that Paul never told his converts that they had to be "born again". Why do you suppose Paul never told them that? I mean, if as you say even man must be born again, surely Paul would have mentioned that somewhere along the line.

 

[Butch5]

It's false teaching, what you're suggesting. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

It's called contextual

 

[Waggles]

The process is the same, it's just a different name. Jesus also calls it being born from above. It's the same for both Jews and Gentiles. The only difference is that for the Jewish believer it is a second birth of God, for the Gentile it is the first birth of God. Peter writing to Jews speaks of them being born again, while John writing to Gentiles speaks of their being born of God. Same process, different name.

Paul may have not expressly used the term "born again" or "born from above" but I believe Peter does

1Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of Jesus Christ’s blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1:3 Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1:4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,
1:5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last season.
verse 1:3
(DRB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:
(ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LEB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LITV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LSV) Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness begot us again to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
(Weymouth) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[JerryfromMass]

I didn't say He didn't come "for" the Gentiles. I said His ministry was "to" the Jews.

Once again, the phrase "born again" is only used in relation to Israel. Get your Bible software, look up the phrase "born Again" and take notice that Paul never told his converts that they had to be "born again". Why do you suppose Paul never told them that? I mean, if as you say even man must be born again, surely Paul would have mentioned that somewhere along the line.

You're plain wrong: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Here the Greek "tis" is used, which means one or anyone.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Here the Greek "pas" is used, which means all, every (thing, one), whole.

All of this Jesus said in one conversation and refers to anyone and everyone.

 

[JerryfromMass]

It's called contextual

False teaching.

 

[JerryfromMass]

I didn't say He didn't come "for" the Gentiles. I said His ministry was "to" the Jews.

Once again, the phrase "born again" is only used in relation to Israel. Get your Bible software, look up the phrase "born Again" and take notice that Paul never told his converts that they had to be "born again". Why do you suppose Paul never told them that? I mean, if as you say even man must be born again, surely Paul would have mentioned that somewhere along the line.

We have Jesus plainly saying that ANYONE who is not born again will not see the kingdom, and ALL that are will have eternal life. Follow Jesus on this, sonny, and you won't go astray.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Yes that is correct - believers do this.
Why? I do not know, but I have seen people walking in the Spirit for 20 years get tired? get complacent? get bitter? believe another gospel? who knows - but it happens.
And yes they were truly saved and had miracles and healings in their lives, but somehow for whatever reasons they quench the Spirit and their self-will rises again.

Faux believers, but not true believers. Faux believers can look like the real thing for a while, act like the real thing for a while, they can even produce fruit, but it's bad fruit (faux fruit), and in the end they are revealed for the fakes that they are. The faux are never saved, but they fake being saved for a while, even convincing some into believing they are the real deal. You have fallen for their deception.

True believers look, act, and produce good and true fruit from the beginning and throughout their life. The good and true are once saved always saved. Just as Jesus said: "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. " Matthew 7:17-19.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I am reminded about the sower sowing in good soil and that, because it has been looked at a bit here, on this thread.

Please correct me where applicable, but from what i remember, it is the Lord Who sows?

One thing i notice here on this thread is the apparent focus on the seed, not the soil. Perhaps a quick look at the soil and the how and why and what of it in the picture we want to see clearly, might help?

================>

And while i am here, can i remind everyone, again (if the hat fits, wear it) to please post as Servants and Friends,so that division doesn't get hold of you... or between you.
[TalkJesus is for fellowship, not division and fighting enemies! ]

The thing with division is, that it is somewhat blind. When divided we can think that it is the other person(s) who is divided and not me (us - whoever) but in fact, division means that 'both sides' are divided, against each other and from what i understand, that equates to forfeiting love, one for another.
Judge not, lest you be judged, my brothers.

The Apostles at times referred to the Brethren as Little Children, and even went so far to say, they were only feeding them milk, not meat.

Consider Jesus,

He is Lord


Bless you all ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings [part 2] ,

may i pop this into the pot and see how it stews?

[it might take a little while to be noticed - and, by the way, i am not a very successful cook/chef! ]

And He is the head of the body, the church: Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:


whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.
Colossians 1:18-29



and surely there were one or two 'Praise the Lord's and 'Hallelujah's while reading that rich mixed spice!


Bless you all ....><>

Jesus is Lord