Apostles and Prophets?

[rojoloco]

I'd say the one passage you offered was a far cry from sound hermeneutics. No offense but it was snippet theology at its finest. I see "experience" that forces a meaning into one set of verses instead of Scripture as a whole judging the validity of the "experience."

You say it is no surprise that the ones lacking these gifts are the ones who deny them. I hate to break it to you but nobody has to seek out the gifts. They are given by God as He sees fit. This means there is just as strong a chance of them being given to somebody in one church as there is another regardless if one believes it exists or not. If God chooses to give it to that person, that person will receive it. However, I already gave a plethora of Scripture which I exegetically broke down to show exactly why those offices have fulfilled their purpose and therefore have ceased to exist. Just because I see somebody who loves God claiming to have this office doesn't mean it is so. If they are practicing it, there is a very strong chance it is being counterfeited by Satan. Don't believe that believers can be driven and empowered by Satan with counterfeit gifts? Read 1 Corinthians where Paul rebukes people for speaking in counterfeit tongues and cursing Jesus at the same time.

 

[Boanerges]

I am to simple a guy for herma-whatcama-call-its :shock:. If it is in the Bible I simply believe it, my other choice would be to keep a pair of scissors handy.
BTW, the gifts I was talking about were the gifts of the 5 fold ministry which God set to govern the body. The other gifts are certainly freely given but never moved in without the faith to do so.
Other than that, I really do not mind if you do not agree with me and I love you in the Lord.
Have a blessed day,
your brother Larry.

 

[His_will_i_am]

There are still authentic apostles and prophets walking the world. The problem is that the enemy has muddied the waters so that it is difficult to recognize them. The prophets which I've met within the institutionalized system are generally immature and corrupted due to unclean influences which they have been exposed to and grew up in. It really seems that apostles are a much rarer thing and I've only come across 3 in my life.

I'd also like to say that the meaning of apostle as being a sent one is a very shallow definition. It'd be more accurate to say that an apostle is 'one who is sent with a mission'.

 

[rojoloco]

I am to simple a guy for herma-whatcama-call-its :shock:. If it is in the Bible I simply believe it, my other choice would be to keep a pair of scissors handy.
BTW, the gifts I was talking about were the gifts of the 5 fold ministry which God set to govern the body. The other gifts are certainly freely given but never moved in without the faith to do so.
Other than that, I really do not mind if you do not agree with me and I love you in the Lord.
Have a blessed day,
your brother Larry.

Hermeneutics is not something that should only be used by scholars. It is the science of the study of the Bible. It is the method to soundly practice exegesis so that a proper extraction can lead to a proper interpretation. Hermeneutics is something that I believe EVERY Christian should learn more of and put into practice.

 

[rojoloco]

There are still authentic apostles and prophets walking the world. The problem is that the enemy has muddied the waters so that it is difficult to recognize them. The prophets which I've met within the institutionalized system are generally immature and corrupted due to unclean influences which they have been exposed to and grew up in. It really seems that apostles are a much rarer thing and I've only come across 3 in my life.

If those 3 people did not meet the criteria set forth in the first post I made, they were not apostles. Man has no authority to create new standards so that they can figure out a way to keep apostleship going. If a man cannot meet every single on of those traits, he is not an apostle. Thus, there are no apostles in this day.

I'd also like to say that the meaning of apostle as being a sent one is a very shallow definition. It'd be more accurate to say that an apostle is 'one who is sent with a mission'.

This is just a modern day bending of an actual meaning in order to fit new age theology and doctrine. Like I said, there are certain traits in order to qualify as an apostle. Nobody today can fully mark off that check list.

 

[jiggyfly]

If a man cannot meet every single on of those traits, he is not an apostle. Thus, there are no apostles in this day.

Well no man has ever and can ever meet those requirements except one Jesus the Christ. But there have been many that Jesus has manifested through fulfilling your list and He still does. Just because you have not witnessed it does discredit it. In the same way the pharisees didn't recognize Jesus as the Son of God. It is possible that you are blinded by your religious teachings and paradigms.

This is just a modern day bending of an actual meaning in order to fit new age theology and doctrine. Like I said, there are certain traits in order to qualify as an apostle. Nobody today can fully mark off that check list.

Jesus can and does fulfill your little check list in many today. I understand your limited view but also understand it's discrepancies with scripture.

Eph 4:11-13 He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ, until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ.

As long as there is spiritual immaturity until Christ's return these gifts will be manifested. Thankfully the body doesn't rule over the Head, the Head, Jesus the Christ rules the body, ( not to be mistaken with the man-made religious institution) the Kingdom.

When one becomes spiritually mature one no longer needs to be ministered to by these gifts but these gifts may manifest in and through them by Christ and minister to others. This is becoming an elder in the body of Christ.

 

[rojoloco]

Well no man has ever and can ever meet those requirements except one Jesus the Christ. But there have been many that Jesus has manifested through fulfilling your list and He still does. Just because you have not witnessed it does discredit it. In the same way the pharisees didn't recognize Jesus as the Son of God. It is possible that you are blinded by your religious teachings and paradigms.

You are incorrect in saying no man has ever met those requirements. Every single one of the Biblical apostles fulfilled that entire checklist. However, you are correct in saying no man can ever meet them nowadays. This is because the office has ceased.

Eph 4:11-13 He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ, until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ.

As long as there is spiritual immaturity until Christ's return these gifts will be manifested. Thankfully the body doesn't rule over the Head, the Head, Jesus the Christ rules the body, ( not to be mistaken with the man-made religious institution) the Kingdom.

Except for the fact that this is not what it says. This is what Charismatics read into it. All it says is that God will continue to give gifts until we reach a unity of faith. It does not say all of those gifts will continue as you claim. If you tell me I am wrong and that you are right, you must concede if one comes to you and says the word of knowledge has ceased because it is not included in your list in Ephesians. However, I have a strong feeling you would object and say all the gifts are still valid. Of course, if we take your approach, you say Paul is being all inclusive in his list in Ephesians. You are compelled to admit you believe those are the only gifts we can be certain are still around and that any others not listed there have the possibility to have ceased since Paul did not feel they were important enough (or even valid enough) to list with the other five. This is a poor way to interpret Scripture.

The proper interpretation would be to admit his list is not all inclusive. Paul is not saying those will be the only 5 to survive any more than he is saying they will all survive. He only says God will continue to give gifts until we all reach a unity of faith and then he goes on to list a small portion of the gifts He has created. If we look in 1 Corinthians, we see God gives the gifts as He sees fit. Thus, gifts will continue until we reach a unity of faith but it says nothing of individual gifts, only gifts as a whole.

When one becomes spiritually mature one no longer needs to be ministered to by these gifts but these gifts may manifest in and through them by Christ and minister to others. This is becoming an elder in the body of Christ.

And this is based on the unbiblical view of a subsequent baptism of the Spirit which is not found anywhere in Scripture. We get our gifts as God sees fit at the moment of salvation. Do not pray for other gifts as it won't happen. Pray that we can see what God has already given us so that we can edify the church.

 

[jiggyfly]

You are incorrect in saying no man has ever met those requirements. Every single one of the Biblical apostles fulfilled that entire checklist. However, you are correct in saying no man can ever meet them nowadays. This is because the office has ceased.



Except for the fact that this is not what it says. This is what Charismatics read into it. All it says is that God will continue to give gifts until we reach a unity of faith. It does not say all of those gifts will continue as you claim. If you tell me I am wrong and that you are right, you must concede if one comes to you and says the word of knowledge has ceased because it is not included in your list in Ephesians. However, I have a strong feeling you would object and say all the gifts are still valid. Of course, if we take your approach, you say Paul is being all inclusive in his list in Ephesians. You are compelled to admit you believe those are the only gifts we can be certain are still around and that any others not listed there have the possibility to have ceased since Paul did not feel they were important enough (or even valid enough) to list with the other five. This is a poor way to interpret Scripture.

The proper interpretation would be to admit his list is not all inclusive. Paul is not saying those will be the only 5 to survive any more than he is saying they will all survive. He only says God will continue to give gifts until we all reach a unity of faith and then he goes on to list a small portion of the gifts He has created. If we look in 1 Corinthians, we see God gives the gifts as He sees fit. Thus, gifts will continue until we reach a unity of faith but it says nothing of individual gifts, only gifts as a whole.



And this is based on the unbiblical view of a subsequent baptism of the Spirit which is not found anywhere in Scripture. We get our gifts as God sees fit at the moment of salvation. Do not pray for other gifts as it won't happen. Pray that we can see what God has already given us so that we can edify the church.

Well here's some advice be careful trying to give instruction. I know your young and have accredited that with your religious zeal to your demeanor. You are entitled to express your opinion at TJ but it must be done in accordance with the rules here at TJ. I pray that you experience God more fully each day.