Apostles and Prophets?

[Fire Mountain]

As part of the five fold ministry of Christ, do these 2 offices still exist? And if so, why do we not hear of them?

 

[jiggyfly]

As part of the five fold ministry of Christ, do these 2 offices still exist? And if so, why do we not hear of them?

I believe that they are existing and are working in our midst but not in the way that these gifts are portryed by the Christian religious institution. The ministery gifts manifest in those who are spiritually mature/maturing within the body of Christ and these leaders (not to be confused with the leaders of the CRI) do not draw attention to themselves but rather point to Christ and will correct any misplaced attention given to them. They generally do not go around announcing to everyone, "hey I'm an apostle or I'm a prophet" nor do they use it as a title affixed to their name.

They are in every community but I would suggest not looking in the religious liturgical meetings. Not that some wont be there but there amongst them will also be many false ones, "wolves in sheep's clothing"

It is much easier to identify these gifts away from the religious gathering,try the piggly wiggly, wal-mart and applebee's possibly even on your job.

 

[abigya]

Completely in agreement with you Brother jiggyfly, the gifts are given to edify the body of Christ .........not to be commercialized.




.

 

[Coconut]

I encounter self proclaimed 'Prophets' and 'Apostles' daily, on facebook they are rampant, every other man and his dog' ...well thank God I have`nt seen anyone proclaiming his pet to be one........yet

I consider all who 'magnify themselves' to be false to Christ, I dont care how spot on they are. If they do it in ignorance they need to be learn the fear of God, before they can ever be His messenger.

As was said and the Scripture agrees, these are gifts given to edify the body of CHRIST, not to glorify a body part.....but theres a lot of little heads and swollen body parts bobbing around out there...

 

[stephen]

As part of the five fold ministry of Christ, do these 2 offices still exist? And if so, why do we not hear of them?

They still operate worldwide. Folks are unaware of the 'title' but those who follow them are blessed.

 

[Nigel]

As part of the five fold ministry of Christ, do these 2 offices still exist? And if so, why do we not hear of them?

yes they still exist.but they have been for many years the main focus of attack

 

[Katzie]

I believe that they are existing and are working in our midst but not in the way that these gifts are portryed by the Christian religious institution. The ministery gifts manifest in those who are spiritually mature/maturing within the body of Christ and these leaders (not to be confused with the leaders of the CRI) do not draw attention to themselves but rather point to Christ and will correct any misplaced attention given to them. They generally do not go around announcing to everyone, "hey I'm an apostle or I'm a prophet" nor do they use it as a title affixed to their name.

They are in every community but I would suggest not looking in the religious liturgical meetings. Not that some wont be there but there amongst them will also be many false ones, "wolves in sheep's clothing"

It is much easier to identify these gifts away from the religious gathering,try the piggly wiggly, wal-mart and applebee's possibly even on your job.

AMEN Jiggyfly!!! I couldn't agree with you more. Beware of all those Tele-Evangelists who proclaim to be casting out demons, healing the sick and prophesying!!!! We don't have to go to huge gatherings of thousands of people to see the gifts of the Spirit at work and those who do....do not know how to test the spirits or discern the spirits and have no idea of just what spirits they are putting their trust in.

God is not out there trying to put on a magic show, it is not signs and wonders we need to seek. His gifts are at work and will reveal themselves when we least expect it!!!! All Glory to God!!!

 

[The Kings Daug]

I BELIEVE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS R STILL HERE TODAY, NOT THE ONES ON T.V...NOT THE ONES IN THE MEGA-CHURCH AND NOT THE ONES THAT CHARGE U MONEY TO HERE THEM SPEAK.:disagree:ray:

 

[Nigel]

apostles
I have been more fortunate than most in that for many years I have
lived an itinerant lifestyle.if you want to find a Apostles to have a look in the right place. In places where a new church is starting off. You may find a minister, who is not "a full-time Minister." You might also find someone in his congregation, who is extremely eccentric. I believe in this situation, you have just found an apostle and a prophet. As this is the work of apostles and prophets.

Within most church is the place to look is out the back during a coffee break. Who is washing the dishes? The Lord revealed to me that this is also a place where you may find apostles

 

[mikemattice]

The manifestations of God the Holy Ghost are for the Scriptural purpose of empowering the faithful to witness. If someone is not witnessing, why would God give them any of the "gifts"?

I've been in a church for the last 3 years (until about 1 month ago), where the head of the church was an Apostle (which literally means "one who is sent away" We get "postal" from the same word.). Within that church all "five folds of the ministry" operated all the time. Remember that the so-called "five-fold ministry" is specifically called "gifts" to the church. Why would God stop giving gifts to His faithful children?

 

[Nigel]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CNIGELC%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> ***************
The manifestations of God the Holy Ghost are for the Scriptural purpose of empowering the faithful to witness. If someone is not witnessing, why would God give them any of the "gifts"?
<o> </o>
I've been in a church for the last 3 years (until about 1 month ago), where the head of the church was an Apostle (which literally means "one who is sent away" We get "postal" from the same word.). Within that church all "five folds of the ministry" operated all the time. Remember that the so-called "five-fold ministry" is specifically called "gifts" to the church. Why would God stop giving gifts to His faithful children?
***************
I don't recall saying in any of my posts have that the five-fold ministries were done away with, I do recall saying that if you wanted to see them, you had to look in the right place.
The next point that I would like make is I have not been in one church I have been in hundreds. And I know what I saw.
I also have a problem with your statement that the head of your church is an apostle. Is he a full-time Minister if so, he is not an apostle. The Bible clearly says what an apostle looks like. They work with their own hands (to support the church) they go hungry that others are well fed etc.
Many people seem to think the five fold ministries are like a ladder with the apostles at the top. The five fold ministries are like a hand. With five digits. Where they worked together remarkable things can be done.
"Whatever is bound on the earth, is bound in heaven. Whatever is loosed on the earth is loosed in heaven."
Michael, you also pose the question. I would God stop giving gifts to the faithful? He didn't! And who said they were faithful! This situation comes about when Pastor wants to be the whole show. In many of the churches I've seen four of the five ministries aren't welcome. And this is perfectly all right with God.
<o> </o>
On a hand the wedding ring is only on one finger. Whatever he says goes.
<o> </o>
People also assume that because a person is in a pulpit and preaching that they have been sent by God. This would be nice but in many cases the leader of a church receives their authority from the executive council of the church. In pretty much the same way as the Pope received his authority from the College of Cardinals.
<o> </o>
Of the hundreds of pastors that I have met there is only one that I was sure was not interested in his own glory. He gave everyone a chance. Even if a person was disabled. And I saw some amazingly powerful ministry in his church as a result.
<o> </o>
Lots of love
<o> </o>
Nigel

 

[farouk]

Ms K:

Yes, best to stick to the Scriptures, than get involved with the antics of some of the TV evangelists, so called.

Take care.

AMEN Jiggyfly!!! I couldn't agree with you more. Beware of all those Tele-Evangelists who proclaim to be casting out demons, healing the sick and prophesying!!!! We don't have to go to huge gatherings of thousands of people to see the gifts of the Spirit at work and those who do....do not know how to test the spirits or discern the spirits and have no idea of just what spirits they are putting their trust in.

God is not out there trying to put on a magic show, it is not signs and wonders we need to seek. His gifts are at work and will reveal themselves when we least expect it!!!! All Glory to God!!!

 

[farouk]

PS: The Bible is now complete; in Apostolic times it wasn't yet, which is why there were Apostles and prophecies.

Now we have God's full revelation.

 

[Nigel]

PS: The Bible is now complete; in Apostolic times it wasn't yet, which is why there were Apostles and prophecies.

Now we have God's full revelation.

none the less there are 5 ministries

 

[Boanerges]

PS: The Bible is now complete; in Apostolic times it wasn't yet, which is why there were Apostles and prophecies.

Now we have God's full revelation.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Despite some denominational teaching to the contrary the 5 fold is still active. Verse 11 above tells of the offices
Verse 12 above tells of their purpose as a whole
Verse 13 tells us how long we will have them.
The conditions of verse 13 have clearly not been met so there is no biblical basis for trying to eliminate them.

Have an awesome day,
your brother in Christ, Larry.

 

[jiggyfly]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Despite some denominational teaching to the contrary the 5 fold is still active. Verse 11 above tells of the offices
Verse 12 above tells of their purpose as a whole
Verse 13 tells us how long we will have them.
The conditions of verse 13 have clearly not been met so there is no biblical basis for trying to eliminate them.

Have an awesome day,
your brother in Christ, Larry.

Good post Larry.:wink:

 

[Boanerges]

Thank you my friend.

 

[rojoloco]

Wow! I can't believe this has already gone 2 full pages without ANY Scriptural references. The only exception is Boanerges posting 5 ministries and assuming the Bible is saying they will all remain when all it is saying is that gifts will continue to be given. This is the problem will the Church today. Too many people focus on their own opinions, teaching of man, and what their heart tells them instead of focusing on the one thing that really matters; God's Holy Writ! How about we start a new trend in this thread and reply with Scripture.

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

What does this say exactly? Does it say there are no apostles? Does it say there are no prophets? Does it say there are both?

There are no apostles in this day. Every person in the Bible with the title of apostle was given it by Jesus himself. What do we know of apostles?

Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

1) They were called by Jesus Christ and God the Father

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

2) They had seen Jesus personally

If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

3) The fruits of apostleship would be shown

The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

4) They performed signs, wonders, and miracles

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

5) Existed to teach the elect

(for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),

6) Ministered to both Jews and Gentiles

I don’t know about you but I am doubtful Christ has returned. If that were the case, the Bible would be a lie since I am still here writing this. Rest assured, the Second Coming has not yet occurred. To claim the title of apostle, one must also be able to claim every one of the items in the list above including having physically sen Jesus with their own eyes.

The Bible tells us to be fishers of men (Mt 4:19). We are to go out and witness. We are to help train people up in Christ. Regardless how much we do this, we cannot appoint somebody to the position of apostle. Only Jesus can do this and he has not done it since he spoke to Saul & renamed him Paul (Acts 9).

Let’s go back to the verses mentioned earlier in Ephesians. The whole reason for apostles (and prophets for that matter) was to lay the foundation of the Church. The Church was still in its infant stages. God called certain individuals, as He saw fit, to fill these offices. We already know the purpose of an apostle was to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and minister to the Jews and Gentiles. A prophet was called to relay a message from God. While teachers have a special ability to interpret the existing Word of God and teach others, a prophet had the special ability to proclaim a new Word from God. This Word would have been previously unknown. Again, these “miracle gifts” existed for the purpose of the advancement of the early Church. Through these signs, wonders, and miracles, apostles and prophets were able to show the people the power of God and the wondrous Truth of the Gospel.

We know Jesus founded the Church. In Matthew he says he will build it. Jesus is also the head of the Church. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The use of apostles & prophets were to lay the foundation. They were used to get the Church started.

Basic construction knowledge will teach us that a foundation is what a building rests on. Without a solid foundation, a building will crumble (Luke 6:49). A solid foundation is vital to the survival of the building in times of trouble (Luke 6:48). It is very clear that apostles & prophets were used to lay the foundation. It should be noted that the apostles and prophets alone are not the foundation. It was through their signs, wonders, and miracles, granted by God Himself, that the foundation was laid. All of this was done with Christ in mind. Christ is the true foundation. He is the chief cornerstone. A cornerstone is the stone that sets the foundation. The entire building, including the foundation, rests upon the cornerstone. Therefore, Ephesians tells us that the apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the Church on Christ himself. Without Christ, the foundation is weak. It is as the man who built his house with no foundation at all. Jesus is the Rock in which our foundation is built.

Want to hear another interesting tidbit of information regarding construction? A building can only have one foundation. Once the foundation is laid, construction of the building commences. If the foundation is strong, it will never be laid again. Paul says the foundation has already been laid. He wrote it in the past tense. The Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets but Christ is the foundation (cornerstone) that holds everything together for all eternity. Jesus has not come back and appointed anybody to lay a brand new foundation. To believe otherwise is unbiblical.

Teaching and preaching are examples of gifts that are used today to further build and advance the church and the Word of God. Now that the foundation has been laid, we are called to be pillars and support of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15). Just as you would build the pillars and walls of a building to help support it once the foundation has been laid, we are called to support the Truth of the Gospel built upon the solid Rock of Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

Wow! I can't believe this has already gone 2 full pages without ANY Scriptural references. The only exception is Boanerges posting 5 ministries and assuming the Bible is saying they will all remain when all it is saying is that gifts will continue to be given. This is the problem will the Church today. Too many people focus on their own opinions, teaching of man, and what their heart tells them instead of focusing on the one thing that really matters; God's Holy Writ! How about we start a new trend in this thread and reply with Scripture.



What does this say exactly? Does it say there are no apostles? Does it say there are no prophets? Does it say there are both?

There are no apostles in this day. Every person in the Bible with the title of apostle was given it by Jesus himself. What do we know of apostles?



1) They were called by Jesus Christ and God the Father



2) They had seen Jesus personally



3) The fruits of apostleship would be shown



4) They performed signs, wonders, and miracles



5) Existed to teach the elect



6) Ministered to both Jews and Gentiles

I don’t know about you but I am doubtful Christ has returned. If that were the case, the Bible would be a lie since I am still here writing this. Rest assured, the Second Coming has not yet occurred. To claim the title of apostle, one must also be able to claim every one of the items in the list above including having physically sen Jesus with their own eyes.

The Bible tells us to be fishers of men (Mt 4:19). We are to go out and witness. We are to help train people up in Christ. Regardless how much we do this, we cannot appoint somebody to the position of apostle. Only Jesus can do this and he has not done it since he spoke to Saul & renamed him Paul (Acts 9).

Let’s go back to the verses mentioned earlier in Ephesians. The whole reason for apostles (and prophets for that matter) was to lay the foundation of the Church. The Church was still in its infant stages. God called certain individuals, as He saw fit, to fill these offices. We already know the purpose of an apostle was to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and minister to the Jews and Gentiles. A prophet was called to relay a message from God. While teachers have a special ability to interpret the existing Word of God and teach others, a prophet had the special ability to proclaim a new Word from God. This Word would have been previously unknown. Again, these “miracle gifts” existed for the purpose of the advancement of the early Church. Through these signs, wonders, and miracles, apostles and prophets were able to show the people the power of God and the wondrous Truth of the Gospel.

We know Jesus founded the Church. In Matthew he says he will build it. Jesus is also the head of the Church. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The use of apostles & prophets were to lay the foundation. They were used to get the Church started.

Basic construction knowledge will teach us that a foundation is what a building rests on. Without a solid foundation, a building will crumble (Luke 6:49). A solid foundation is vital to the survival of the building in times of trouble (Luke 6:48). It is very clear that apostles & prophets were used to lay the foundation. It should be noted that the apostles and prophets alone are not the foundation. It was through their signs, wonders, and miracles, granted by God Himself, that the foundation was laid. All of this was done with Christ in mind. Christ is the true foundation. He is the chief cornerstone. A cornerstone is the stone that sets the foundation. The entire building, including the foundation, rests upon the cornerstone. Therefore, Ephesians tells us that the apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the Church on Christ himself. Without Christ, the foundation is weak. It is as the man who built his house with no foundation at all. Jesus is the Rock in which our foundation is built.

Want to hear another interesting tidbit of information regarding construction? A building can only have one foundation. Once the foundation is laid, construction of the building commences. If the foundation is strong, it will never be laid again. Paul says the foundation has already been laid. He wrote it in the past tense. The Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets but Christ is the foundation (cornerstone) that holds everything together for all eternity. Jesus has not come back and appointed anybody to lay a brand new foundation. To believe otherwise is unbiblical.

Teaching and preaching are examples of gifts that are used today to further build and advance the church and the Word of God. Now that the foundation has been laid, we are called to be pillars and support of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15). Just as you would build the pillars and walls of a building to help support it once the foundation has been laid, we are called to support the Truth of the Gospel built upon the solid Rock of Christ.

I know several who have had these things fulfilled in and through them by Christ.

 

[Boanerges]

I offered the scriptures now I offer my testimony:
It is no surprise to me that the churches I visit who lack these gifts are the ones who deny them.
I have met a Prophet of God and his giftings were simply amazing.
I have met an Apostle of God thought he would be far to humble to title himself as such he fulfilled every biblical criteria posted here.
I have met the Evangelists, the Pastors and the Teachers.
I have seen the signs and wonders.
I am a witness to the power and truth in the Word of God. It is still very much a reality today.