Anihilationism

[complete]

Ah...Soul sleep...That old horse....Ok

Hello @Admon Mika'el.

You are obviously a seasoned campaigner on the forums and have seen it all before, but please receive my responses in the spirit they were given, and not succumb to dismissiveness. For we are all God's workmanship in Christ Jesus, and are all learners of Him, yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hello @Admon Mika'el.

You are obviously a seasoned campaigner on the forums and have seen it all before, but please receive my responses in the spirit they were given, and not succumb to dismissiveness. For we are all God's workmanship in Christ Jesus, and are all learners of Him, yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes I know the spirit in which they are given. You are a gentle, sensitive type. The type of person I love to share a conversation with. We disageee but we get along. You are a friend and a brother and we have no problem between us. We just disagree on this is all. But friends can and often do disagree? Right?

 

[Butch5]

'We are confident, I say,
and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.'
(2 Corinthians 5:8)

Hello @Butch5,

You refer to the verse above in response to @Admon Mikha'el's use of it, and it is very often used as a proof text by those who maintain that when the believer dies, he merely exits this present life to continue living in the presence of the Lord. However, this is not what this verse is saying at all.

Paul was willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, yes: but for that to happen would require the Lord's return, for only then will the believer exchange what is mortal for that which is immortal, corruption for in-corruption (1 Corinthians 15:53-54) only then will death be swallowed up in victory. Only the power of the resurrection can bring about that change in the bodies of those that are alive and remain at His coming, and raise incorruptible those who are 'asleep in Christ' (1 Corinthians 15:52).

At the time that Paul wrote those words, the expectation among believers was that Christ's return was imminent. It only awaited Israel's repentance as a nation (Acts 3:19-21). That was the hope all the way through the approx. 40 yrs of the Acts period. However, as we now know, Israel did not repent, and was laid aside (temporarily) in blindness and unbelief. So the resurrection still awaits those who are 'asleep in Christ' (1 Corinthians 15:18), There is no life apart from resurrection.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree. Also, when Paul speaks of the body here he's not speaking of his flesh. He's speaking of the body of Chrisf, the Church. The Greek words that are translated absent and present mean to be away from and with one's people. However, the context is the Ressurection. Also, before this Paul says he doesn't want to be found naked. He's referring to the Greek belief that when a person dies the soul continues apart from the body. Paul is saying he doesn't want to be found that way. His own words show that this passage is not speaking of a disembodied state.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I agree. Also, when Paul speaks of the body here he's not speaking of his flesh. He's speaking of the body of Chrisf, the Church. The Greek words that are translated absent and present mean to be away from and with one's people. However, the context is the Ressurection. Also, before this Paul says he doesn't want to be found naked. He's referring to the Greek belief that when a person dies the soul continues apart from the body. Paul is saying he doesn't want to be found that way. His own words show that this passage is not speaking of a disembodied state.

Look at that verse again...Paul was simply saying...paraphrased....I would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body. He was not talking about the body of Christ. He was talking about his body....Butch I'm at a place in my life where I too would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body I wear.

 

[Butch5]

Ah...Soul sleep...That old horse....Ok

What do you mean by Soul Sleep?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

What do you mean by Soul Sleep?

This thing that Complete said above is like.... The doctrine of soul sleep teaches that, upon death, the soul of each person, believer and unbeliever alike, "sleeps" until the general resurrection and judgment. Though all people will be raised from the dead, the condition of humans between death and the resurrection is one of unconsciousness. The soul is alive but unconscious, awaiting the time of the end. According to this teaching, when the person dies they totally cease to exist. Eventually each soul will be awakened to resurrection, then to judgment. The arguments given for soul sleep are as follows.

That teaching does not line up with the Word

 

[complete]

Look at that verse again...Paul was simply saying...paraphrased....I would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body. He was not talking about the body of Christ. He was talking about his body....Butch I'm at a place in my life where I too would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body I wear.

Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

Yes, but to be present with the Lord would require that Christ return, for only the power of the resurrection would enable Paul to go to Him. The reference Butch5 made to 'nakedness' is found in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, in which Paul states that his desire was to be clothed upon by life, he did not want to be in the unclothed state, which is death, in which he would have no longer either the earthly 'house' he was born with, or the building of God which would be his at resurrection. He wanted Christ to return so that he could be present with Him.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

This thing that Complete said above is like.... The doctrine of soul sleep teaches that, upon death, the soul of each person, believer and unbeliever alike, "sleeps" until the general resurrection and judgment. Though all people will be raised from the dead, the condition of humans between death and the resurrection is one of unconsciousness. The soul is alive but unconscious, awaiting the time of the end. According to this teaching, when the person dies they totally cease to exist. Eventually each soul will be awakened to resurrection, then to judgment. The arguments given for soul sleep are as follows.

That teaching does not line up with the Word

Hello again, @Admon Mikh'a'el,

No, the unbelieving dead are never spoken of as 'asleep in Christ' for they do not have the promise of life in Christ Jesus that the believer has. They will be raised to judgement and not to life.

The soul is the body energized by the breath of life or 'spirit'. When the breath of life leaves the body the soul dies, and only the power of the resurrection can quicken it into life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Look at that verse again...Paul was simply saying...paraphrased....I would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body. He was not talking about the body of Christ. He was talking about his body....Butch I'm at a place in my life where I too would rather be with the Lord than to be in this body I wear.

I have, many times my friend. The context of the whole passage is the Resurrection. Paul is comparing two states of being, corruptible and incorruptible,

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Notice he speaks of an earthly house and one from God. He says in this one we groan desiring to be clothed with the one from heaven. Then, if being clothed we shall not be found naked. The Greeks believed that the body was the prison of the soul. Their goal was to escape the body. This is why Paul said the Gospel is foolishness to the Greek. It was because the Gospel is all about the Resurrection. To the Greek mind the body is a prison, why would someone want to be put back in it? But Paul doesn't want that, he doesn't want to be found naked. In verse 4 he says not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon. He's saying he doesn't want to shed his body, but rather that the one from heaven would be put on over it. The Greek word translated clothed upon, means to put on over, like one would put a coat over their clothes. Then at the end of the verse he explains plainly what he means, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. In other words that immortality might swallow up this mortal state.

Having said this surely he's not contradicting this in verse 8 and saying he wants to do as the Greeks hope and leave his body.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

Yes, but to be present with the Lord would require that Christ return, for only the power of the resurrection would enable Paul to go to Him. The reference Butch5 made to 'nakedness' is found in 2 Corinthians 5:1-4, in which Paul states that his desire was to be clothed upon by life, he did not want to be in the unclothed state, which is death, in which he would have no longer either the earthly 'house' he was born with, or the building of God which would be his at resurrection. He wanted Christ to return so that he could be present with Him.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
ChrisJ

Where does the Word say that? You know that the soul cannot survive outside of the body...It has to go into a new one....fortunately Jesus did rise from the dead so yes, we do have somewhere to Go. Jesus rose from the dead and we arise with Him..Into a spirit body being with him from life to life.

 

[Butch5]

This thing that Complete said above is like.... The doctrine of soul sleep teaches that, upon death, the soul of each person, believer and unbeliever alike, "sleeps" until the general resurrection and judgment. Though all people will be raised from the dead, the condition of humans between death and the resurrection is one of unconsciousness. The soul is alive but unconscious, awaiting the time of the end. According to this teaching, when the person dies they totally cease to exist. Eventually each soul will be awakened to resurrection, then to judgment. The arguments given for soul sleep are as follows.

That teaching does not line up with the Word

I'm a little confused. You said, the soul is unconscious, but you also said that when the person dies they totally cease to exist. How can it be both?

 

[Butch5]

Where does the Word say that? You know that the soul cannot survive outside of the body...It has to go into a new one....fortunately Jesus did rise from the dead so yes, we do have somewhere to Go. Jesus rose from the dead and we arise with Him..Into a spirit body being with him from life to life.

A spirit body? Wouldn't that be reincarnation instead of resurrection? Jesus rose in the same body, he showed Thomas the scars.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hello again, @Admon Mikh'a'el,

No, the unbelieving dead are never spoken of as 'asleep in Christ' for they do not have the promise of life in Christ Jesus that the believer has. They will be raised to judgement and not to life.

The soul is the body energized by the breath of life or 'spirit'. When the breath of life leaves the body the soul dies, and only the power of the resurrection can quicken it into life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Dear friend Here is an article that will explain more clearly than I'm capable of, the thing of sould sleep and why its not correct... Are People Unconscious at Death? (Soul Sleep) I hope its all right for me to paste a url If not Forgive an old man

 

[complete]

Where does the Word say that? You know that the soul cannot survive outside of the body...It has to go into a new one....fortunately Jesus did rise from the dead so yes, we do have somewhere to Go. Jesus rose from the dead and we arise with Him..Into a spirit body being with him from life to life.

Hi @Admon Mikha'el,

When God made man out of the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, - and man became a living soul. The soul is the whole person. When the breath of life goes back to God Who gave it, the person, or living soul, becomes a dead soul. For the soul that sinneth it shall die, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, so all die. Only the resurrection can quicken the soul to life once more.

God, who identifies the believer with his Lord, sees him, though dead, as being 'asleep in Christ', awaiting the sure hope of the resurrection of the dead. For God is faithful that promised.

As a member of the body of Christ, I believe that when the risen Christ 'appears' in glory then I, along with the rest of the members of the body of Christ will appear with Him there (Colossians 3:4), having been raised from the dead.

Thank you brother in Christ.
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Where does the Word say that? You know that the soul cannot survive outside of the body...It has to go into a new one....fortunately Jesus did rise from the dead so yes, we do have somewhere to Go. Jesus rose from the dead and we arise with Him..Into a spirit body being with him from life to life.

Dear friend Here is an article that will explain more clearly than I'm capable of, the thing of sould sleep and why its not correct... Are People Unconscious at Death? (Soul Sleep) I hope its all right for me to paste a url If not Forgive an old man

That article is not very well researched. He's misunderstood quite a few of those passages. I can see his presuppositions in his statements.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I'm a little confused. You said, the soul is unconscious, but you also said that when the person dies they totally cease to exist. How can it be both?

LOL Not quite...Ok My body dies, its buried, it turns to dust. Right? My soul however is not unconsious ever...It cannot survive without a body...So at the instant my body dies it flies, flees? to the Lord and is given a spirit body....I can't prove this, but I think its not the body we have throughout eternity. The Word says we shall be like the angels. They have a body that can be felt. Remember the angel that came into the cell and toes Peter in the ribs to wake him. Peter felt that. The person never ceases to exist although his body does

 

[complete]

Dear friend Here is an article that will explain more clearly than I'm capable of, the thing of sould sleep and why its not correct... Are People Unconscious at Death? (Soul Sleep) I hope its all right for me to paste a url If not Forgive an old man

Hello again,@Admon Mikha'el,

The soul is not unconscious, but without life: for the breath of life has departed.

I will close now, for I can say no more, but I thank you for your patience.

Good night and God bless.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Why do we suppose that the Bible refers to death as sleep? What happens when one is finished with sleep? They wake up. What is going to the dead when Jesus returns? The be make alive again. It's just like they woke up. It's a picture of the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

LOL Not quite...Ok My body dies, its buried, it turns to dust. Right? My soul however is not unconsious ever...It cannot survive without a body...So at the instant my body dies it flies, flees? to the Lord and is given a spirit body....I can't prove this, but I think its not the body we have throughout eternity. The Word says we shall be like the angels. They have a body that can be felt. Remember the angel that came into the cell and toes Peter in the ribs to wake him. Peter felt that. The person never ceases to exist although his body does

I have to disagree here. From what I see in the Scriptures a soul is a living being, a person. In the Bible fish are called souls as are other animals. According to Gen 2:7 God created the man from the dust of the earth. Thus man is dust. Then God breathed into the man something from Himself, the breath or spirit (same word) of life. When these two came together there was a transformation and the man became a living soul. From this it seems that a soul requires a body. A body and the breath of life together are a living soul. We're told that when a man dies, the breath or spirit of God returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. Since to the two have separated it seems the logical conclusion is that the soul no longer exists. It didn't exist before the two came together how can it exist when the separate.

Also I would disagree that the person never ceases to exist. Souls can die. Jesus' soul died.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

God also said the soul that sins shall die. There are other passages also.

 

[complete]

Why do we suppose that the Bible refers to death as sleep? What happens when one is finished with sleep? They wake up. What is going to the dead when Jesus returns? The be make alive again. It's just like they woke up. It's a picture of the Resurrection.

Hi @Butch5,

The Bible does refer to death as sleep, time and again. (eg., 1 Kings 11:43, 1Kings 14:20 etc., 1 Kings 15:18 )

I agree that we like David will 'awake with His likeness' (Psalm 17:15).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris