Loyal
It is a start in moving in the right direction concerning words.
Anihilationism
Active
I guess if you're not fluent in Hebrew and Greek, you just don't have a clue: is that what you're saying?It is a start in moving in the right direction concerning words.
Loyal
Hello @Butch5,
I agree, for the word 'Hell' has been abused, misused, and made grotesque by so many influences over the centuries. Also the word used by our Lord, 'Gehenna', relating to the fires of end time judgment, and the single use of the word, 'Tartaroo,' relating to the imprisoned 'spirits' (ie., angels) who fell at the time of the flood in Noah's day, have quite a different application than that of Hades and Sheol in Scripture.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Active
I agree Chris. They are three different places. Calling all of them hell confuses some many people.
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings Brother,
regarding your reply [this part]
if i may continue this thought, everyone knows they will croak-it one day, and nobody knows when. For the unbelieving, it is a fact of life that they will die. So, since we are going to die anyway, why get all caught up in religion and why waste too much time doing nothing and why forsake anything. The heros go down fighting. The weak don't live it up while they can. If you're gonna die, you might as well die doing what you love doing.... etc etc
So what is missing?
Could it be that a HUGE portion of the Gospel is being omitted and in some cases replaced with other things?
What us it that 'Christians' get so Christian about?
Hope? or something else?
If all that happens in judgement is that a person dies and knows nothing of it, for all ages, always, then if they don't have any idea about what they will miss with Salvation, there really is no point in worrying about it. And as far as they are concerned, it is as simple as turning off the lights. Agreed that most would rather keep going indefinitely, but to the average (unsaved) person, it is an inevitable thing to die one day.
One could also argue from a 'Christian' standpoint also that when it gets too tough, and it seems like you're too far gone, if all that happens is you snuff it and that's that, then it can be an OK sort of option. Not really all that bad, actually. Some would say it's not bad at all... BECAUSE you know nothing, feel nothing and are nothing, ever and ever for all evers.
As far as judgement goes, if the only judgement is that you end, that is no big deal to get concerned about.
Could there be something i am missing or we are missing?
thank you for replying
and for the other parts of your replies
Bless you ....><>
regarding your reply [this part]
if i may continue this thought, everyone knows they will croak-it one day, and nobody knows when. For the unbelieving, it is a fact of life that they will die. So, since we are going to die anyway, why get all caught up in religion and why waste too much time doing nothing and why forsake anything. The heros go down fighting. The weak don't live it up while they can. If you're gonna die, you might as well die doing what you love doing.... etc etc
So what is missing?
Could it be that a HUGE portion of the Gospel is being omitted and in some cases replaced with other things?
What us it that 'Christians' get so Christian about?
Hope? or something else?
If all that happens in judgement is that a person dies and knows nothing of it, for all ages, always, then if they don't have any idea about what they will miss with Salvation, there really is no point in worrying about it. And as far as they are concerned, it is as simple as turning off the lights. Agreed that most would rather keep going indefinitely, but to the average (unsaved) person, it is an inevitable thing to die one day.
One could also argue from a 'Christian' standpoint also that when it gets too tough, and it seems like you're too far gone, if all that happens is you snuff it and that's that, then it can be an OK sort of option. Not really all that bad, actually. Some would say it's not bad at all... BECAUSE you know nothing, feel nothing and are nothing, ever and ever for all evers.
As far as judgement goes, if the only judgement is that you end, that is no big deal to get concerned about.
Could there be something i am missing or we are missing?
thank you for replying
and for the other parts of your replies
Bless you ....><>
Loyal
Hello Br. Bear,
I realise that your post was not addressed to me, but I would like to comment if I may.
Judgment in itself, before a Holy God is an awesome thought, and not one that I can contemplate without the knowledge that I personally will not come into condemnation, because of the saving grace of God, by which He has attributed His righteousness unto me. For like the blood that was daubed on the door posts and lintels of the houses of the Israelites in Egypt, it was only that which prevented them from suffering the same loss as that of the Egyptians, at the time of God's judgment in that day. The blood of Christ avails for me, but for my unbelieving relatives and fellow human beings there will be judgment, and the prospect of a second death. We can't underestimate the awesomeness of that experience. Before the God Who sent His only Begotten Son into the world to die for the sins of the whole world, and gave ample opportunity for all to hear and believe on Him to the saving of their souls.
Those who have never heard however will be judged according to their works, and the secrets of their hearts, and many will receive life, though never having received a knowledge of God's saving grace through the sacrifice Christ bore on their behalf, but God, knowing their hearts knows how they would have responded had they heard, and that will determine their eternal destiny. God is Just and the justifier.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I realise that I am saying what you already know and are assured of, but please bare with my repeating it.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Active
It's the FERVENT HOPE of lost humanity that "Annihilationism" is TRUE.
Heaven doesn't interest them (who wants to sit on a cloud with a harp singing praises all day ??), and IF there's no Hell / Lake of fire waiting for them, then big deal - let's get it over with.
However if the BIBLE account is factual, then AVOIDING a Physical death in an unregenerate condition (Not Born AGain of the SPirit, and cleansed by Jesus' SIN Offering) is of paramount importance regardless of any "negatives" about it that the human mind can conjure.
Simple as that.
Loyal
I think it is in the "urgency" of The 'PROCLAMATION' of The "Proclaimers", is it a "5 Alarm Fire" or a "dimly burning wick", in the tone of our voices, that the "fire" have burn out! And the 5 said: our lambs has burn out.
But "Jesus"
NASB 1977
“A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Psalm 96:13
before the LORD, for He is coming--He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.
Shalom
But "Jesus"
NASB 1977
“A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Psalm 96:13
before the LORD, for He is coming--He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.
Shalom
Loyal
SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD
Jonathan Edwards’s ‘Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God’, preached on July 8, 1741 in Enfield, Connecticut, is an appeal to ‘sinners’ to recognize that they will be j…
michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com
It depends upon The Messenger who delivers "The Proclamation of Jesus Christ"!
Member
Yes- the unbelieving will cease to exist
Active
God offers eternal life for the repentant faithful and HE offers eternal punishment for the unrepenrant sinner. You choose your eternal destiny. So, please choose life.
Active
HI Br. Bear,
I get the impression that you don't think death is enough of a punishment. From what I read in Scripture people will suffer the wrath of God and be cast into the Lake of Fire. That's called the second death. Some may look at it as an option. As you say, some may say it's not so bad and go on living a life apart from God. But, if one does that, does it change God? God offered eternal life to those who would believe. After Adam sinned death came on all. That means all will die. Unless God intervenes that is the end of everyone. However, we know that God does intervene and will resurrect and judge everyone. Some will be given life and some death. For those who get life they go on, for those who don't, they get burned up.
We find in Scripture that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. If He takes no pleasure in their death, why would He torture them? What would we expect from a God of love, a God, that Scripture says, is love? Would we expect Him to mercifully let people die, or would we expect Him to torture people? We know that God will accept the most vile sinner if he turns to Him. If He is that forgiving, why would we expect Him to torture people?
I can't necessarily answer your question about what Christians get so "Christian" about. I've changed my beliefs so far away from what is considered "Christian" today that I don't really fit into that group anymore. Through study I've come to find that much if not the majority of what is considered Christianity today, simply isn't. That may sound arrogant, but it's not meant to be. It's simply a fact. Anyone who is serious about getting to the roots of Christianity will find that much of today's teaching is out in left field. So, I don't really fit in with that group. And, to be honest, they don't really want me. As I began to learn the teachings of the ancient faith and question today's teachings I was kindly shown the right foot of fellowship. I can take hint. And, that's OK. It's hard to sit in the pew and listen to someone teach the congregation things that are demonstrably false. And, honestly, I got tired of going to church and spending the drive home explaining how what the pastor taught was wrong. Again, that may sound arrogant, but it's not meant to be. It's just years of deep study that have shown me how much error has entered into the teachings that are taught today.
Active
Re: inevitable death. We who are born again believers in the Messiah know that God is real and HIS word is truth because it has been revealed to us by and through his indwelling HOLY SPIRIT. God offers the promises both of etrnal life and eternal puishment to all. The soul is eternal. The weak in Christ are still in Christ and will be saved, but the ones that say "NO" to Christ and outright reject GOD and HIS promises, they will never have the understanding and knowledge that we born again believers have. GOD has given the rejecting unbeliever over to a reprobate mind that will not change. However, they will be on bended knee before a righteous and HOLY GOD on judgment day acknowledging that the punishment that awaits them is just.
Active
How do we know that the wicked don't burn forever? Jesus told His disciple that it was better to cut off their hand than to be cast into Gehenna where the fire isn't quenched. The apostle John said that those not found in the book of life would be cast into the Lake of Fire. How do we reconcile these two destinies of sinners? We conclude that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are one and the same place. Isaiah tells us of this place called Gehenna.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.(Isa. 66:22-1:1 KJV)
The first thing we notice here is that it is dead bodies that are burning. It's not disembodied living beings. It's dead bodies. So, this creates a problem for the ETC doctrine,. How can people be consciously tortured in Gehenna when we see that it is dead bodies that are burning and not living beings?
What does Jeremiah say about this place called Gehenna?
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)
Jeremiah tells us that this area will be rebuilt. It's going to be restored and the valley of dead bodies, Gehenna, will one ay be made Holy to the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.(Isa. 66:22-1:1 KJV)
The first thing we notice here is that it is dead bodies that are burning. It's not disembodied living beings. It's dead bodies. So, this creates a problem for the ETC doctrine,. How can people be consciously tortured in Gehenna when we see that it is dead bodies that are burning and not living beings?
What does Jeremiah say about this place called Gehenna?
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)
Jeremiah tells us that this area will be rebuilt. It's going to be restored and the valley of dead bodies, Gehenna, will one ay be made Holy to the Lord.
Active
No problem. What I was saying is that people won't burn forever. The English concept of hell, as a place of eternal torment, isn't what the Bible teaches. There are three places in the Bible that are referred to as hell. They are, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Hades is the grave. Gehenna is a Valley outside of Jerusalem. And, Tartarus is a place for angels.
Active
Hmmm...I believe that the New Testament mentions Hell over 160 times, of which, Jesus made at least 70 of them...not a place where one wants to be, no matter what it is called or for how long, don't you think?
Active
But that's the problem. Three different places all called hell. How does a person know which one is being spoken of? For instance, when Jesus said,
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mk. 9:43 KJV)
Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which is where the wicked are cast. It's a valley outside of Jerusalem. However, Look what Isaiah said about this place called Gehenna.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:23-24 KJV)
Notice what Isaiah said, they will look on the carcases. This is the place many claim is a place of torment, yet what we see here is dead bodies burning, not living beings. That verse from Jesus is used to claim eternal torment. However, when we look at what was actually said, we see that it's dead bodies that burning, not living beings.
Now look at this passage from Peter.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:25-27 KJV)
Here Peter is quoting David who was prophetically speaking the words of Christ, who said, you will not leave my soul in hell. There are people who see this and teach that Jesus went down to a place of fiery torment and was tormented by the devil because they read this and have the idea of hell as a place of fiery torment. However, in this passage the word hell is actually the word Hades. Hades is the grave. Christ was saying 'you will not leave my soul in the grave'. That's a reference to the Resurrection.
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings Brother,
forgive me if i did not present my thoughts about that. I was, however, presenting the common man's thinking and reasoning, in that if the death you speak of is simply an end, lights out time and that's that, then surely one has to ask what all the fuss is about.
I have been talking outside of the box, discussing the thread and parts thereof. I think you will agree that it is a subject worth discecting and examining as much as possible... a sort of 'leaving no stone unturned'.
Back to the subject,
Yes indeed, and methinks that this is a 'landmark' to travel by, in regards to this topic.
Can we go to that place of really considering that and why it is so and therefore get a slightly better focus that might address my other question recently....
======================
We are nearly touching on what we should but, are we/is our focus too much on the woe and not nearly enough on the hope that fills the people of the Way?
what is the message that resounds from your heart?
Can a man change his ways and look towards the Lord if he is only warned of something not yet proven and that he can not ever get to see?
Or what if that man's eye catches sight of something (SomeOne) so beautiful and he is drawn to that Beauty, away from destruction?
Yes, we read that some needs be saved as if from fire and snatched back from it, but it does read, some, not all.
When we read the Gospels, we see that many followed after Jesus and often because of the wonderful works He did. They all wanted more of His Graciousness and Goodness, the merciful lovingkindness stuff that the Son had come to reveal.
[something to chew on]
===============
yes, Brother. Too much error.
I think this is part of the problem [not you, but generally].
Why do Christians get so 'Christian'?
and alas, all too many get led down perilous paths of erroneous teaching.
==========
there is a sick little demon that wants us to thrive on perverse satisfaction of the concept of damnation with as much horror and misery as possible.
The heart is deceitful and needs reconditioning.
The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the Flesh... let us return to the victory we have in Christ and the Life He Himself truly is.
back to my question,
imagine going into a desert or mountain range and finding a bunch of lost people.
By all means tell them that if they continue going in the wrong direction, they will perish.
By all means tell them you know the way to get 'un-lost'.
Then you find out that they all met, one by one.... so, what makes you {us} any different?
The Lord bless you all ....><>
forgive me if i did not present my thoughts about that. I was, however, presenting the common man's thinking and reasoning, in that if the death you speak of is simply an end, lights out time and that's that, then surely one has to ask what all the fuss is about.
I have been talking outside of the box, discussing the thread and parts thereof. I think you will agree that it is a subject worth discecting and examining as much as possible... a sort of 'leaving no stone unturned'.
Back to the subject,
Yes indeed, and methinks that this is a 'landmark' to travel by, in regards to this topic.
Can we go to that place of really considering that and why it is so and therefore get a slightly better focus that might address my other question recently....
======================
We are nearly touching on what we should but, are we/is our focus too much on the woe and not nearly enough on the hope that fills the people of the Way?
I think it is in the "urgency" of The 'PROCLAMATION' of The "Proclaimers", is it a "5 Alarm Fire" or a "dimly burning wick", in the tone of our voices, that the "fire" have burn out! And the 5 said: our lambs has burn out.
But "Jesus"
NASB 1977
“A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Psalm 96:13
before the LORD, for He is coming--He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.
Shalom
what is the message that resounds from your heart?
Can a man change his ways and look towards the Lord if he is only warned of something not yet proven and that he can not ever get to see?
Or what if that man's eye catches sight of something (SomeOne) so beautiful and he is drawn to that Beauty, away from destruction?
Yes, we read that some needs be saved as if from fire and snatched back from it, but it does read, some, not all.
When we read the Gospels, we see that many followed after Jesus and often because of the wonderful works He did. They all wanted more of His Graciousness and Goodness, the merciful lovingkindness stuff that the Son had come to reveal.
[something to chew on]
===============
yes, Brother. Too much error.
I think this is part of the problem [not you, but generally].
Why do Christians get so 'Christian'?
and alas, all too many get led down perilous paths of erroneous teaching.
==========
there is a sick little demon that wants us to thrive on perverse satisfaction of the concept of damnation with as much horror and misery as possible.
The heart is deceitful and needs reconditioning.
The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the Flesh... let us return to the victory we have in Christ and the Life He Himself truly is.
back to my question,
imagine going into a desert or mountain range and finding a bunch of lost people.
By all means tell them that if they continue going in the wrong direction, they will perish.
By all means tell them you know the way to get 'un-lost'.
Then you find out that they all met, one by one.... so, what makes you {us} any different?
The Lord bless you all ....><>
Active
I personally don't see where Annilatiionism comes from?
The Internet describes it as a Christian doctrine but I haven't seen it discussed in the Bible anywhere!
Just to not exist, seems like a non-Christian thing...am I wrong?
The Internet describes it as a Christian doctrine but I haven't seen it discussed in the Bible anywhere!
Just to not exist, seems like a non-Christian thing...am I wrong?
Active
It comes from the Bible. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Jesus said that God so loved the world that whosoever believes should not perish. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. What we don't find in Scripture is God torturing people.