Angels

[B-A-C]

My own experience and study of scripture has led me to see two kinds of angels: the human messenger and the heavenly messenger. Both have at times been sent to men by God. The word "angel" does mean messenger. John the Baptist was a human messenger sent by God while Gabriel appears to be a heavenly messenger.

I think we need to be careful of circular logic here. The ocean is water, ice cubes are water, therefore all oceans are ice cubes.
Some humans give messages, some angels give messages, therefore all messengers are angels.

Humans are not angels and angels are not humans. Nor does one ever become the other.

 

[believer1952]

Thank you @B-A-C , I read the context, which led me into Cor. as well. I did a little research in Clarke's Commentary, as well as Dave Guziks too.

Because it's always been my understanding, since being saved that is, that men are to be the "head". I gladly accept this understanding I feel grateful I received, because I know there is a lot of argument about it. I think that comes from the world's fallen nature. As well as the misunderstanding, or misuse, of the scripture. I knew the verses that mention women "learn in silence". I wasn't sure exactly what that meant, but I was pretty sure. The following helped a lot to break it down:

Source: 1 Timothy - Chapter 2 - David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible on StudyLight.org
a. Learn in silence: Does this mean that women are forbidden from speaking in the church? No; silence is an unfortunate translation in this verse. Paul uses the same word translated peaceable in 1 Timothy 2:2. The idea is "without contention," not total silence.


i. In other places in the New Testament, even in the writings of Paul, women are specifically mentioned as praying and speaking in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5). To learn in silence has the idea of women receiving the teaching of the men God has chosen to lead in the church, with submission instead of contention.

ii. Submission is the principle; to learn in silence is a way to describe the application of the principle.

iii. Some have said the reason for this is because in these ancient cultures (as well as many today), men and women would sit in separate sections. The thought is that women were interrupting the church service by shouting questions and comments to their husbands during the service.

 

[B-A-C]

ome have said the reason for this is because in these ancient cultures (as well as many today), men and women would sit in separate sections.

I'm not sure about gender segregation, but when you say "ancient cultures" I think this sometimes causes dissension
as well. On one hand we say God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Whenever the subject of Lesbian and Gay
lifestyles come up, some people will say... well that was back in "ancient" Bible times, that doesn't apply to today's
society. But when it comes to gender roles and responsibilities we go back to "that was just for ancient cultures".

I don't think God thinks men are better or more valuable than women. He doesn't place them any higher than
women. But I do think there is a hierarchy that He intended for families.
I don't think God thinks an Army general who is a Christian has any more value than a private who is a Christian.
But I believe God see's the value in a hierarchical structure.

 

[believer1952]

I agree @B-A-C, but I am forever reading things wrong, well, sometimes, don't want to exaggerate, LOL! Where that says "separate sections" a women's biblestudy popped into my mind, I didn't even think about in a separate section of the church. I remember when I was a teen, I was dating a boy in my highschool, and whenever I was at his house for any gathering, the men seemed to float together in the living room (lets say) and the women in the kitchen, or visa versa.

I don't think that had to do with any religious thing though. I think it was more of a "family culture" thing. Just all raised in a small, town in Oregon. I think the mother always attended church, a community one, maybe baptist, I don't remember.

 

[amadeus2]

Sorry my friend...The bible does not say women are to keep quiet in church and there is much precedent for women teaching etc... In the bible

I quite agree that women may be teachers as well as men. You misunderstood my direction and my belief. For you @Bendito and @believer1952, I will open another thread with regard to women and the Church

The bible says the Word is alive and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword! That does not sound dead to me....Where do you get these ideas?

Jesus was dead on the cross. He was quickened by the Holy Spirit of God. This verse simplifies it:

“Who [God] also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” II Cor 3:6

A Bible on a shelf never opened and never read is a dead book. It is filled with potential. It is brought to Life (the Life, which Jesus is) when it is opened and read by someone filled or led by the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is always Alive. The unopened Bible is not.

 

[believer1952]

I quite agree that women may be teachers as well as men. You misunderstood my direction and my belief. For you @Bendito and @believer1952, I will open another thread with regard to women and the Church



Jesus was dead on the cross. He was quickened by the Holy Spirit of God. This verse simplifies it:

“Who [God] also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” II Cor 3:6

A Bible on a shelf never opened and never read is a dead book. It is filled with potential. It is brought to Life (the Life, which Jesus is) when it is opened and read by someone filled or led by the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is always Alive. The unopened Bible is not.

I had another take on your statement @amadeus2 and felt that was what you meant. My thought was that if one is not filled with the Spirit of God, they cannot rightly discern the Word of God. I've always loved this verse, because it describes me trying to read the bible before I was born again:

1 Corinthians 2:14New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So I was thinking the bible could be considered "dead" to anyone reading it that isn't filled with God's Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeus2]

I think we need to be careful of circular logic here. The ocean is water, ice cubes are water, therefore all oceans are ice cubes.
Some humans give messages, some angels give messages, therefore all messengers are angels.

Humans are not angels and angels are not humans. Nor does one ever become the other.

I am not completely against logic for I know that all of us including me use at times, but in the things of God it is NOT the Way to God's Truth:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus made it clear what "truth" was, but for you or me or anyone to accept and believe his statement is not done by logic, but by faith. Someone who does not know the Lord might be able to make a pretty good case against receiving his words based on logic alone, because they may seem to be self-serving.

As to the OT word, angel, (for example as used in Gen 16:7) [4397, Hebrew = mal' ak], itself is translated in the KJV to the English word angel 111 times. The same Hebrew word is translated to the English word, messenger, 98 times, and 4 times it is translated as ambassadors.

In the NT the word, angel, (for example as used in Matt 1:20) [32, Greek = aggelos], itself is translated in the KJV to the English word, angel 179 times. The same Greek word is translated to the English word, messenger, 7 times.

Probably we can agree that it can mean messenger but whether it excludes human messengers would not be so clear, would it, at least not without going through the particular uses in scripture? I am not linguist and have little personal knowledge of the original languages. I used on a Bible computer program to obtain the details listed in this post.

The first example I see in the OT is Gen 32:3, "And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom."

The Hebrew word translated as messenger in Gen 32:3 verse is the same one translated as angel in Gen 16:7, "And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur."

In the Greek of the NT notice for example the two following verses:

"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:20

"For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Matt 11:10

The Greek word translated as angel in Matt 1:20 is the same Greek word translated as messenger in Matt 11:10. [32, Greek = aggelos]

Matt 11:10 is speaking of John the Baptist, who we hopefully agree was a human being of flesh and blood similar in that respect to you and I. The reference to John the Baptist is quotation or paraphrase of Malachi 3:1 which reads:

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The Hebrew word translated as messenger in Mal 3:1 is the same word translated as messengers in Gen 32:3 and as angel in Gen 16:7.

What does all this prove? To me it simply raised some questions. The proof is to be found in accord with where the Holy Spirit leads.

 

[amadeus2]

I had another take on your statement @amadeus2 and felt that was what you meant. My thought was that if one is not filled with the Spirit of God, they cannot rightly discern the Word of God. I've always loved this verse, because it describes me trying to read the bible before I was born again:

1 Corinthians 2:14New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So I was thinking the bible could be considered "dead" to anyone reading it that isn't filled with God's Holy Spirit.

We are in agreement.

A dedicated atheist might through study and human logic be more familiar with the Bible than a good follower of Christ, but unless led to do so by the Holy Spirit the believer should not seek to engage this atheist in debate. That usually is not in line with the purpose that God has for us. Whatever we do should edify someone in the Way of God. Only God always knows when something will edify someone and sometimes [ONLY sometimes] He will share His knowledge with us. If such an engagement is where the Holy Spirit leads, is God not able to say what needs to be said?

Jesus at unusual times remained silent. His physical life was being threatened with terribly painful torture and death, but he didn't open his mouth to deny the accusations made against him. "Not my will but Thine"