Angels

[Julie1983]

How did God's angels end up with such personality flaws? Starting with Lucifer becoming jealous. How was he capable of that? I would have thought that angels were created pure and good. How did evil get created? Why did half the angels in Heaven become evil too? Can God trust angels after that?

 

[faithfulservant]

Remember, God knows the ending from the beginning. He knew Satan would rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him. God does not want robots to serve Him. That's not glorifying. He wants His creation to worship Him of their own freewill.

It appears that God gave the unholy angels over to their own depraved ways as they rebelled. But His word is true, He wins in the end and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

How did God's angels end up with such personality flaws? Starting with Lucifer becoming jealous. How was he capable of that? I would have thought that angels were created pure and good. How did evil get created? Why did half the angels in Heaven become evil too? Can God trust angels after that?

I love it when someone offers me something worth musing over. Thank you so much for the questions.

We know that everything was 'very good' at the end of creation week. But within that creation there was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In Isaiah God claims to create evil Is 45:7. The same Hebrew word is used in both the name of the tree and the evil God said he creates.

I hold to the claim that God set up the creation so that it would end up as it has on purpose so that he could insert his Son into it as Lord over all and rule it for eternity. Evil serves a purpose for God and he uses it regularly to achieve his ends. Ultimately it seems that he is going to do away with it and all that cling to it so I just work to side with being good like God and understanding that Gods ways are past finding out.

This whole thing is about the revelation of God to his creation that was made for his son Jesus.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[Julie1983]

But Gary, how can a good and perfect God create evil? That doesn't fit His character because He cant stand to even look at sin. Does God really use evil to do His work? That sounds scary to me.

 

[gdemoss]

But Gary, how can a good and perfect God create evil? That doesn't fit His character because He cant stand to even look at sin.

I have a hard time with it too but it is his claim not mine. I need to do more research by rereading the whole Old Testament. I have been stuck in the New Testament for months now gaining new information about the coming end of this age and revelation of the person of Jesus Christ and God our Father. Lord permitting I will get to the OT soon.

Does God really use evil to do His work? That sounds scary to me.

Yes, remember how God used evil Nebuchadnezzar to bring his people into captivity? He ended up giving him an attitude adjustment but he used him for his purpose. He also claimed to have raised up Pharaoh so that he could show forth his power by removing his people from captivity in Egypt.

God has threatened to chasten me by the hand of an evil man once. I understood exactly what God was saying to me. People don't understand God at all. He is sovereign over all the affairs of man. The fact that he allowed the World Trade Center to be taken out should be a warning sign to us that Satan has weakened our Nation and God is getting closer to judging us for our ungodliness.

It is very scary. Understanding this part of Gods nature has caused me to depart from more evil than anything else.

Peace in Christ Our Lord,

Gary

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I have to agree with Gary although I may have not been so blunt.
Unfortunately much of what is taught about the word of God is error built on myth that was built on error.

How did God's angels end up with such personality flaws?

The old testament only mentions angels in a few stories.There is no explanation given as to exactly what they are or at what point they were created.In the old testament stories they appear to be very purpose oriented and don't really exhibit personalities.
There is no evidence of Angels being in the garden of Eden.

The Hebrew for angel is malach, a messenger.
The cherub with the flaming sword, that stood to the east of the Garden of Eden, is probably not an angel, since the Hebrews depicted cherubim as sphinx-like beings, with the body of a lion and the head of a man.
The serpent in the garden was a beast of the field created along with all the other beasts on the sixth day so it was not a fallen Angel.
If an Angel is a messenger then only Godly Angels are a carrier of the word of God.The one third of the Angels that rebelled are simply carriers of a message that is not from God.

Satan in the old testament is actually Ha-Satan which literally means "The adversary"or "the accuser".
I personally have doubts that Satan is or ever was an Angel.
The apostle Paul said that a "messenger of Satan" was sent to buffet him in the flesh.That could also be translated as "Angel of accusation"
or "an adversarial message"Satan or Adversary does not seem like a messenger to me at all.It seems more like the message itself,sent through a vehicle or messenger.

When the Jews were captive in Babylon they started adapting concepts from the mythology they were surrounded by.After Alexander conquered Judea 300 years before Jesus the Jewish myths were mixed with Greek mythology and Greek philosophy.
The apostle Paul referred to these things.
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Jesus himself alluded to the error that the Judaic religion had taken.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Jesus is the Truth,the Way,the Light,The Day and in him we live and move and have our being.Jesus reveals the true nature of God,that he is love.

Please don't believe me,research all these things yourself.
Don't trust every messenger, test every message.

 

[gdemoss]

I have to agree with Gary although I may have not been so blunt.
Unfortunately much of what is taught about the word of God is error built on myth that was built on error.
The old testament only mentions angels in a few stories.There is no explanation given as to exactly what they are or at what point they were created.In the old testament stories they appear to be very purpose oriented and don't really exhibit personalities.
There is no evidence of Angels being in the garden of Eden.

The Hebrew for angel is malach, a messenger.
The cherub with the flaming sword, that stood to the east of the Garden of Eden, is probably not an angel, since the Hebrews depicted cherubim as sphinx-like beings, with the body of a lion and the head of a man.
The serpent in the garden was a beast of the field created along with all the other beasts on the sixth day so it was not a fallen Angel.
If an Angel is a messenger then only Godly Angels are a carrier of the word of God.The one third of the Angels that rebelled are simply carriers of a message that is not from God.

Satan in the old testament is actually Ha-Satan which literally means "The adversary"or "the accuser".
I personally have doubts that Satan is or ever was an Angel.
The apostle Paul said that a "messenger of Satan" was sent to buffet him in the flesh.That could also be translated as "Angel of accusation"
or "an adversarial message"Satan or Adversary does not seem like a messenger to me at all.It seems more like the message itself,sent through a vehicle or messenger.

In English translation, the word 'angel' is used from the Book of Genesis onwards. The Hebrew for angel is malach, a messenger.
The cherub with the flaming sword, that stood to the east of the Garden of Eden, should not be considered to be an angel, since the Hebrews depicted cherubim as sphinx-like beings, with the body of a lion and the head of a man.

When the Jews were captive in Babylon they started adapting concepts from the mythology they were surrounded by.After Alexander conquered Judea 300 years before Jesus the Jewish myths were mixed with Greek mythology and Greek philosophy.
The apostle Paul referred to these things.
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Jesus himself alluded to the error that the Judaic religion had taken.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Jesus is the Truth,the Way,the Light,The Day and in him we live and move and have our being.Jesus reveals the true nature of God,that he is love.

Please don't believe me,research all these things yourself.

Have you ever considered the fact that no one has ever seen God according to the bible John 1:18. When he spoke to Moses in the bush it was through an angel Ex 3:2. The law was said to have been given by angels Heb 2:2. Who then did God speak to Adam through? We are not explicitly told but it had to be through something other than a direct manifestation of God himself.

another note. Job says that the morning stars sang as the foundation of the earth was laid. It is written in couplets and the verse along with it is speaking of angels. for what it is worth...no dogma here on either subject.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

But Gary, how can a good and perfect God create evil? That doesn't fit His character because He cant stand to even look at sin. Does God really use evil to do His work? That sounds scary to me.

The alternative is that Satan duped God or that God let things get out of control and let a man kill everyone.That does not fit an all knowing,all powerful God who is Love.
If Satan duped God or God did not foresee the creation of evil then we are all in deep trouble.Now that sounds scary to me.

Can God trust angels after that?

I doubt he ever did.
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:



Keep in mind the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world so it's all good.
The Lambs book of life is already written.

 

[Kit Carson]

This kind of thing is exactly why I read the entire Chapter of the Bible and not one little verse.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and the darkness, I make peace and I make evil.....or in the newer bibles it has been changed to calamity. I the Lord do all these things.

Just before this verse the theme is of war. Subduing nations and opening gates and exacting justice against evil.

The opposite of peace is war. The evil spoken of is the bad that God brings on those who oppose his will, his punishment, consequences if you will , the result and punishment of those who sin.

Evil is not meant as a definition of moral evil or wickedness. God does not create moral evil and or wickedness. He simply exacts justice.

As for the Angels, the bible does not tell us a lot about that, but they had free will also and some just like us chose to sin. Those that remain, somewhere in timothy it indicates are elect and cannot sin. So they were given a spirit that is pure.

As I assume we will be given one day. That is the way sin will be overcome.

God has to show all, the failings of sin and the way things will be as a result of sin, so those who do chose the good way have this example set before them. So it brings Glory to God, when the truth is revealed to all.

It is also a very intelligent way to show us the results of sin. As for me I have seen enough. I fully accept the knowledge of the results of moral wickedness. I see exactly Gods message.

Kit

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Have you ever considered the fact that no one has ever seen God according to the bible John 1:18. When he spoke to Moses in the bush it was through an angel Ex 3:2. The law was said to have been given by angels Heb 2:2. Who then did God speak to Adam through? We are not explicitly told but it had to be through something other than a direct manifestation of God himself.

That is my understanding also and right now my only answer is "something I have not yet considered".

This verse seems to imply a rather complex relationship.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The Hebrew says Yahweh Elohim which is a fairly loose term.
Remember even the earliest writers of the old testament had to use known language to describe unknown things.Some scholars see this Lord as a precarnate Jesus and I have not found a reason to disagree because the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world.

another note. Job says that the morning stars sang as the foundation of the earth was laid. It is written in couplets and the verse along with it is speaking of angels. for what it is worth...no dogma here on either subject.

Morning stars or lucifers have been tied to angels because of the assumption Ezekiel was describing Satan.If that assumption is incorrect so are all theories based on it.
Remember what kind of religion Abraham came out of.They were star worshipers.Abram left his Fathers house when he was called out by something he called "the living God". Until then Abram had probably thought gods sat on a shelf.

 

[faithfulservant]

The old testament only mentions angels in a few stories.There is no explanation given as to exactly what they are or at what point they were created.

This is not true. The name "angel" actually means "messenger." So the name itself gives their purpose.

Additionally, the Bible teaches that there are angels for many purposes: Angels of deliverance, angels of protection, angels of salvation, and warring angels.

 

[Kit Carson]

Adam and Eve, the beginning, before they ate the fruit, were sinless.

So they heard the sound of Gods footsteps in the garden, they hid when God called out to them.

Sounds to me like they walked with God.

Gods word tells us the reason we cannot face God is our sin. No other reason.

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

Morning stars or lucifers have been tied to angels because of the assumption Ezekiel was describing Satan.If that assumption is incorrect so are all theories based on it.
Remember what kind of religion Abraham came out of.They were star worshipers.Abram left his Fathers house when he was called out by something he called "the living God". Until then Abram had probably thought gods sat on a shelf.

I know, you don't agree that Lucifer is Satan and such so we will hit a dead end discussing here.

 

[David777]

Hi everyone.

Does God create evil?

Reading the posts i noticed the following.

Isaiah 45:7 was used to support the idea that God creates evil.

I checked the Hebrew and the English translation.

Here is what i discovered in Strong's Concordance.

ra': adversity
Original Word: רָע
Transliteration: ra'
Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
Short Definition: adversity

Thus, the correct meaning is God creates good and adversity.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. (NASB)

This raises doubt over the translation in the KJV.

You may have to find another scripture folks to
support the idea that God creates evil.

note: calamity and adversity are synonyms.

At this stage God is good and the source of all that is good.
No darkness has been found in Him.

 

[gdemoss]

Does God create evil?

Reading the posts i noticed the following.

Isaiah 45:7 was used to support the idea that God creates evil.

I checked the Hebrew and the English translation.

Here is what i discovered in Strong's Concordance.

ra': adversity
Original Word: רָע
Transliteration: ra'
Phonetic Spelling: (rah)
Short Definition: adversity

Thus, the correct meaning is God creates good and adversity.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. (NASB)

This raises doubt over the translation in the KJV.

You may have to find another scripture folks to
support the idea that God creates evil.

note: calamity and adversity are synonyms.

At this stage God is good and the source of all that is good.
No darkness has been found in Him.

You error not reporting the truth of the word used.

The Hebrew word used in both Genesis for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (וָרָ֔ע) and in Isaiah 45:7 for I create evil (רָ֑ע) both are forms of the same exact word. There are those falsely reporting that strong's has a 7451a and 7451b but the two are merely the male and female forms of the word.

I believe we should differentiate between having no darkness in him and creating evil as two different things. Evil existed on the sixth day of creation or their couldn't be a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. How can you have knowledge of something that doesn't exist? And after God finished his creation he said it was all 'very good'. God uses evil for his purposes and one of those purposes is to chasten his children that they be not destroyed with the world. If you haven't had God bring evil against you for the purpose of chastening then you are a ******* and not a son or you are perfect and not in need of any chastening by the hand of God.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[David777]

Hello Gary.

I am not attempting to undermine the scripture, only to understand
precisely what Isaiah 45:7 is saying. Is the use of " ra' '" automatically translate to "evil" as in the KJV.

I looked up the use of " ra' " and this is what I found.

<dir> 1. the word ra' has a wide range of meanings in the OT/Tanach

2. the most common meaning of it is 'calamity' or 'adversity' (often with judgement connotations)


3. the textual elements in the verse support this common meaning.


4. the LXX does not contradict this understanding.


5. the rabbinical literature recognizes the wide range of meaning for ra'.


6. the rabbinical literature recognizes non-metaphysical interpretations for this word and verse.


7. the rabbinical literature does not contradict this understanding.


8. Modern interpreters, both Jewish and Christian, support this understanding.



Accordingly, I have to conclude that this passage has no bearing on the question of the 'creation of ethical evil'. (And hopefully through this exercise, I have made the point that most words have a range of meaning;, and that we must be sensitive to the elements in the text and context to determine where within that range that particular instance falls.
</dir>
Glenn miller, Feb 13/99

As you can see Gary this issue of translation is not clear cut.

To jump into the translation that implies that God creates evil
I would hesitate to do. A translation using adversity may be a safer
option.

It most certainly is not an error to translate ra' as adversity or calamity.

 

[jiggyfly]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:14-24 (KJV)

 

[gdemoss]

As you can see Gary this issue of translation is not clear cut.

To jump into the translation that implies that God creates evil
I would hesitate to do. A translation using adversity may be a safer
option.

It most certainly is not an error to translate ra' as adversity or calamity.

Yes words have a range of meaning that is true and always something that must be considered when translating a text. The best way to understand that range is to read a range of verses from scripture that use the word. You may not want to believe that God does these things but he does. As Jiggyfly points out in the scripture he quoted, God raised up Pharaoh to be who he was for his purpose. If you get stuck on the idea that God is the God modern Christianity has painted a picture of that Love is God then you miss out on much of who God is. In the end you will just be another vessel of wrath fitted to destruction who fears not God because of a mistaken belief that God accepts everyone through Christ just as they are.

There is no need to mince words or try to find some other interpretation that fits your desired outcome of the text. Evil is necessary to create adversity and calamity, there is neither without it. God creates evil. Why did you ignore that fact I mentioned about evil having already existed when the creation was 'very good'? Creation without evil is 'perfect' not 'very good'. And that is what God is in the process of doing, perfecting his creation.

You bring up Glen's work and all of the others who he sites without considering that it isn't wise to do so. He speaks of ancient Rabbi's and their understanding. I wonder what the Pharisees, Saducees and scribes interpreted it as. They were the wise in scripture in Jesus day who were all wrong and put down by Jesus himself. Looking to outside sources to find the truth is the easiest way to end up in error. Especially 2000 years since Christ has come. He isn't coming back because the church has it all right and is ruling and reigning in righteousness on earth. No, he is coming back because the church has run its course just like Israel did before her. Jesus will rule and reign a thousand years with his bride in the millennial kingdom and man will still end up rising up against him and trying to destroy him. Your only hope to find real truth is to pursue God through humility asking him to teach you himself through his Holy Spirit that he has poured out on all flesh. But don't waste time as he is about to remove his Holy Spirit and let man consume himself in the tribulation period.

God bless you with all spiritual understanding,

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

How did God's angels end up with such personality flaws? Starting with Lucifer becoming jealous. How was he capable of that? I would have thought that angels were created pure and good. How did evil get created? Why did half the angels in Heaven become evil too? Can God trust angels after that?

Angels are intelligent beings capable of thought reason and decision making. The evil one decided wrong. With angels, as with man, everything comes down to 'attitudes and choices'.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

But Gary, how can a good and perfect God create evil? That doesn't fit His character because He cant stand to even look at sin. Does God really use evil to do His work? That sounds scary to me.

Yeah! I still contend that this is a mistranslation. GOD knew it would happen but all HIS creation has free will. Someone, the evil one, chose to go against GOD and sin was the result. The evil one created sin.