Angels

[lilyR]

Good argument lilyR.

I thought this was a good question:

Was that really God's master plan? To knowingly cause all this pain and destruction so we can learn to trust and accept him?

Yes I do believe it was God's plan.
Isaiah 14:26-27
" This is the plan devised against the whole earth and this is the hand that is stretched out against all nations. For the lord your hosts hath planned and who can frustrate it? And for his stretched out hand can we turn it back?"

Epheshians 1:4
"Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,that we should be holy and blameless before him"

2 Timothy 1:9,
"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was granted to us in Christ from all eternity"

Epheshians 1:11
" In him also we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose who works all things after the counsel of his will"
God's plan was formed before creation, just as an architect structures his building before his foundation.God's plan for his people according to these verses goes way back even before the universe...indeed "To all eternally". God's plan is everlasting,its unchangeable. He knew the days of noah were coming, he knew you and I would be born, even before our parents.

The first verse I gave, he says" This is the plan devised against the who earth", He has planned it all. it's unchangeable. In man's point view it might seem as though the world is changing everyday, but every single thing that happens, he knew it would. He knew who would crucify Jesus and Jesus, he himself said to his disciples that one of them would betray him, even though non of them, including Judas knew who was to betray him. But God himself knew. He planned and asked Noah before hand to build an ark to secure himself while he destroyed sin with flood.

Why did he let bad things happen? God had Angels, and he Knew Lucifer would betray him. He was one of his trusted loyal Angels at one point so he knew his character. The rebellion,greed and pride brought all this sin, which he gave Adam & Evil. Yes that too, seeing Lucifer wanting to overthrow planned everything so that through him people might be saved. Through his righteousness and loving ways.God knew this too.

His plan is to give people a chance to repent and be with him eternally where is love, joy peace and happiness. You have to understand God is a loving God which ever way you see. Look at the old testament, you see alot of people did bad things bad God forgave,because he's loving. Anything evil, bad,sin had to do with Satan. He's plan was to separate the two.He planned that Jesus, the man without sin should sacrifice his own life for the whole world, then rise again.

Again note: God did not create sin,Man created sin in his heart through his behaviour.

 

[Brother Mike]

God's Master Plan.

Good argument lilyR.

I thought this was a good question:

Was that really God's master plan? To knowingly cause all this pain and destruction so we can learn to trust and accept him?

It's a loaded question, and I already gave the main ones used to prove God planed all this death, falling, and destruction. I also know there is no scripture supporting God knowing ahead of time that His man Adam would fall. People just use the, "God knows everything" as that is engrained in their head with Doctrine, though many scriptures support that he.

A) Does not know what man is going to choose, being created in the same class as him.

B) Chooses to not know.

C) Is really the God that is love and full of faith, and just by his nature unable to think someone is going to fail.

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Think God would have known ahead of time so he would not have repented that he made that choice, or was God believing the best for him, and gave it to him, Saul being qualified at the time???

God's Judgement:
2Sa 24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

Jerusalem itself next in line:
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

same translations say God changed his mind, God reversed his judgement. It seems watching those Seventy Thousand die was a little much for God. Did God make a bad choice to begin with? Or did he make the right choice, but had compassion just like we might have and changes his mind?

Why would God not have known how he would have felt to start with? He is a all knowing God when dealing with men, right?

Pharaoh.

Was Pharaoh picked for destruction?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Or.................

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Did God give Pharaoh chance after chance, being one place in scripture that says Pharaoh hardened his own Heart toward God??
Or did Pharaoh get the short end of the straw from the start?

The Lord dealing with Eli.

1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Why did God tell Eli that his house would walk forever before him, but now God changed his mind?

Surely God, being God would have known before hand what was going to happen, right? I mean if God said something he could have FORCED them to do what was right, being God and all.

Or, could it be that it is man that messes up What God had planed, and Man changes things?

Is God confused? Or full of faith, and hope, and is kind and loving?

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Once again, God seems to be confused on the outcome here. He leaves his options open, (JUST IN CASE) they mess up, and He can't do good to them.

Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Looks like they messed up, but God still does not seem to want to bring the pain.

Who can tell if God is going to repent, and not layeth the smack down?

Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

After looking at all the scriptures, God certainly can not tell. It is very apparent that God is responding to man's actions, uncertain what those actions may be. Doctrine may not like that, but scripture is scripture.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Once again, we see God change his mind.......................


Now back to our original questions............

Did God know Adam was going to fall ahead of time?

Did God know Satan was going to rebel against him?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

Mike, I read the arguments and am unconvinced. God does change the way he deals with us based upon whether we choose to do evil or good. The option being laid out on the table is for us to see, not because he hasn't a clue what we will choose. By laying it out in his word he has effectively caused all who believe to repent that they might see life. And just because it says that God repents doesn't mean that he is somehow admitting having made a mistake. No his plan for perfecting a 'very good' creation has and always will be intact. He also knows who all will be there to worship him in spirit and truth in the end. We don't.

Yes, God knew.

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

The Same Arguement, but still needs examined.

Thank you gdemoss. You bring the same argument to the table that has been laid on the table here at Talk Jesus for a few years.

However, we can not just bypass scripture after scripture and ignore what is really there, refusing to see through our doctrine what God is showing us in His word. His Word is sent to correct, and give light into things, changing our way of thinking.

There is nothing in scripture that indicates God makes mistakes. His wisdom, and who he is certainly indicates that it would be impossible for God to ever choose the wrong choice, or make any mistakes.

The option being laid out on the table is for us to see, not because he hasn't a clue what we will choose.

If God fully knew what man was going to do, then none of these scriptures would be here. God judges Heart conditions, not always actions. If the heart being the spirit of man, created in God's image and God's Class, it is very possible that being of the same kind as God, that God would not know what choice Man was always going to make. Designing man in this way, gives God true Children, and someone to fellowship with on his level, and people that truly love him.

If it is the way many say it is, then God made some to love him knowing ahead of time they would and some that would not. At this point, nobody in his class really loves him on their own, he knew and created them to do so.

This brings man down to the creation of Angels who where created to serve, but God did not want servants, he wanted Children.

King Saul:

It repented the Lord that he made Saul King. Repented means God wishes he would have chosen someone else. God said this himself. He is telling us exaclty how he thinks and responds.

It is also a clear indication that King Saul was the best choice at the time, and God fully expected King Saul to be a awesome king, and God believed in King Saul.

could it be possible that if God is a faith God, a God of love then God would not even consider King Saul turning out to be a bad king?


We are very much like God. He made us like Him. God gets Angry.

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

God wants to be left alone so he can come to a place in anger to just wipe everyone out, He then told Moses, I'll just take you and you can be my mighty nation. Had Moses said, "Sounds like a plan to me God." then it would have changed all the written word from this point on.
We see God very much as emotional as we can be, he knew if Moses bugged him, Moses would end up changing his mind.

This is why Moses was chosen to be in the place he is, God already knows how he thinks, God says it, and expects it to be followed, God needed a mediator between himself and man, a faithful priest that could mediate between man and God, otherwise, nobody would have made it.

Once again, we see God make provisions to offset his his thinking, and continue with man. If God knew, planed, and set in stone everything, then no need for Moses to even be around, as God's plan could have never changed.

God has sorrow.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

To say God already knew what Choice Adam would make, to say God already knew what choice Man would make, would be to say God causes himself great pain, and grief. It also shows God openly admits he made the wrong choices on purpose, making him evil, and imperfect.

Saying God knows the beginning from the end (No scripture to support that, as it states God SPOKE the end FROM what the beginning was) of every choice man is going to make, is to have a very cold attitude of how God feels about things he has had to do.

God had to destroy mankind, something he created, and it started out as good. This grieved God immensely and was not a easy choice. He only wanted the best for these people, he loved them, yet it came to a place he had to watch them all die by his hand. There was no other option at this point.

With all the other scripture as evidence, I can say this. Our Father never wanted to do this, and never planed for this. He had to kill the people he made, to say he planed this and knew ahead of time is not the God I serve and who loves us.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

1Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? 2When thou art departed from me to day, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? 3Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: 4And they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. 5After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: 6And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. 8And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

According to your view of God, Samuel is more powerful than God as he knows exactly what men are going to do in the untold future. Your view of God is not the God I worship. My God knows all that every man will ever do both good and bad. Even as Jesus spoke saying that his disciples would find a man carrying a pitcher of water. My God knows all that is, was and will ever be as well as what might have been.

I shall follow him,

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

untold future.

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Joh 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ***, sat thereon; as it is written,

Speaking something with the anointing and power backed by God, speaking the Word over something, Speaking what God would have you speak, speaking what you believe.

Brings things to pass.

Samuel spoke the Word as the Holy Spirit Gave it unto him. It has to come to pass. If God speaks it, it happens.

To know the future of mans thoughts and intentions is far different than causes things to happen.

You did not address why God repented of making man, and why God Grieved his heart in doing so. I am curious to that explanation.

Your the blessed!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

You did not address why God repented of making man, and why God Grieved his heart in doing so. I am curious to that explanation.

Mike your not seeking answers here, lets be honest. Your seeking to prove what you 'know' to be true. God never truly repented of making man as he kept Noah and his family alive to continue his plan for mankind. Before ever having children, I knew that I would at some point be grieved by their behavior. The difference is that God knew what that behavior would be and still chose to do it. But your not interested in what I say. Your turn...tell me why my understanding of God is all wrong.


BTW what do you mean when you say "Your the Blessed!"?

In Christ,

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you.

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-glossary/?do=showentry&item=God

God never truly repented of making man as he kept Noah and his family alive to continue his plan for mankind.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

So the Lord "Falsely repented?" (If it's not true, then it has to be false, or was this some sort of in between, lukewarm sort of repentence?)

Was the fact he told us it Grieved his heart, vex,cause pain, sorrow, only to make us think he cared?

All the other examples I posted fit and testify of this scripture also. If the Lord says he was sorry, to be sorry, console oneself, change mind of doing something, I just accept his word on that.

Noah FOUND grace............... does finding a man and his family out of the many that where here make it less hard on God to destroy his creation? Does it indicate he was not really and truly grieved? Does it indicate he did not say he wishes he did not create man? Really?

Or is he a faith God full of wisdom and found a way, even though he had to wipe the Earth and start over?

I also knew ahead of time my Children where not going to be just perfect angels. I knew I faced challenges, but at no time did I wish they where never born, or wanted to kill them and try again.

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.

The Word judges the thoughts and intents of the Heart. (Heb 4:12)

KJV 765 verses the Heart is mentioned.
KJV 15 verses perfect heart mentioned.

2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Would not God already have planed and known who's heart was right?

Apparently not.

Not one place in scripture is it mentioned God has planed, every person's life, and knew how everyone would respond, and what those outcomes would be. I posted many scriptures that say the opposite of that.

Not one place in scripture it mentions God knew ahead of time the outcome of everything, we only see him Speak things through prophets and it happen. We see him declare the out come of the earth as a whole, and it will happen.

Not one scripture he knew his man Adam would betray him, not one scripture he knew Satan would betray him. Not one.

God knew us before the womb, he planed everything for us, every person has a place. But no scripture to indicate that place is forced on anyone, or God knew the outcome.

God tells us specifically how he knows what man is doing. He knows with perfect certainty what a man may choose. How the man arrived there is not up to God however.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The Lord himself tells us he responds to AFTER the fruit of his doings, After he has searched the heart. Not a before plan, not what he ALREADY knew ahead of time, but According to what man does.

My hope is that your conscience does not allow you to ignore all this scriptural evidence, but to seek out why those scriptures are there, and why God said things the way he said them.

Doctrine is made after being corrected by the Word, it's our foundation, Doctrine does not correct what the Word does say.

You are the blessed in Christ Jesus, we are the blessed. That is what I meant.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Mike your not seeking answers here, lets be honest. Your seeking to prove what you 'know' to be true. God never truly repented of making man as he kept Noah and his family alive to continue his plan for mankind. Before ever having children, I knew that I would at some point be grieved by their behavior. The difference is that God knew what that behavior would be and still chose to do it. But your not interested in what I say. Your turn...tell me why my understanding of God is all wrong.


BTW what do you mean when you say "Your the Blessed!"?

In Christ,

Gary

Gary Apparently Noah was the only one who was actually seeking GOD. God was about to destroy man off the face of the Earth but HE was not going to do it completely. HE kept Noah and his family as 'seed' stock to replenish the human race. grin It worked too.

 

[gdemoss]

What I was saying before you twisted my words to try and make it seem that I was calling God a liar is that if what your reading into the scriptures is true and God truly wished he had not created man then he would not keep Noah alive. The fact that it repented God in his heart and grieved him was that he knew as he did before ever founding the earth that time had come to destroy 99.9% of the world. As I said, your ideas of what scripture is saying with all of the scripture you have provided are seen through the lens of someone who presupposes that God is a 'faith God' or however you reason it to be. You claim that I ignore what the scriptures are saying. Therefore thou art inexcusable O man whosoever thou art who judgest and doest the same. God reveals himself to the righteous but lets the unrighteous wander around in the vanity of their own minds painting pictures of who they believe him to be. You believe God to be someone who created everything without knowledge of what would come of it or what people would do but merely forces himself into the picture when necessary to guide it to his intended end. I believe God to be omniscient, including all things that man will ever think or act upon. It is possible that one is the true God and the other false or that both views are false. But to ask me, the one you believe in sounds like Satan as it is he who is the one who manipulates things to happen his way by using the knowledge of Gods character to move Gods hand against his own people without cause (Job). God, however, need not fear as he knows everything Satan will do before he does it. You worship your version of God, I will worship mine. I will give God praise, honor and glory for what he has done even in creating Satan that all the hearts of men might be tried and those that overcome be given life. There is nothing that God does not know nor will ever surprise him. What he has written about what has transpired is for our benefit of understanding a God that words alone fail to be able. Knowing something is going to happen versus acting upon something when it happens are two totally different things.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Gary Apparently Noah was the only one who was actually seeking GOD. God was about to destroy man off the face of the Earth but HE was not going to do it completely. HE kept Noah and his family as 'seed' stock to replenish the human race. grin It worked too.

Amen to that.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you.

Thank you for your response.

gdemoss

The fact that it repented God in his heart and grieved him was that he knew as he did before ever founding the earth that time had come to destroy 99.9% of the world.

So, God did something Ahead of time that caused him to Grieve and have sorrow. Planed grief and sorrow. Interesting.

If you could supply the scripture for that, so I can add it to my notes I would be very thankful.

This argument is not new. God knew everything before hand, planed everything before hand, and nobody had a choice but to follow that plan.

This is called a Election doctrine. Your version is a very extreme version of it.

I gave plenty of scripture that shows God made everything good, and that good he meant turned on him. I gave scripture where God himself said he acts according to man's doings, and what is in man's heart, Not what he has forced anyone to do, not what he knew ahead of time about man. God told us how he deals with us, and is very evident in all the scripture I gave.

I know you love God, and want to do things pleasing to him, I have no question about that.

Outside of that scripture(s) I asked for, I feel it's time to hear others give input as this has turned into another "Election" doctrine debate, and was not my intention.

Thank you for taking your time, and thought into posting these things. It's not a big issue, as these things have been posted many times before.

God bless!!

Jesus is lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Brother Mike said:

Doctrine is made after being corrected by the Word, it's our foundation, Doctrine does not correct what the Word does say.

Brother Mike,help me fit these verses in.

Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Not one scripture he knew his man Adam would betray him, not one scripture he knew Satan would betray him. Not one.

Well Romans 8:20 seems to imply it was not the creations choice.
It seems to me that it is saying it was the plan all along and it will be so glorious that we won't be mad at God,because it's going to be so worth the all the trouble.Just like childbirth.
This is the third time I posted these verses and I await in eager expectation for an answer to be revealed.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

The Blessed

Gary What was the very first thing GOD ever said to man?

It was Blessing. HE authorized us to take dominion in the Earth. HE authorized us to prosper in all we do. HE authorized us to replenish the Earth. HE authorized us to be suppliers/distributors in the Earth. Feeding and ruling in all the Earth.
Genesis 1:27-28 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-27">27</sup>So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28">28</sup>And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



We are the Blessed.
Isaiah 65:22-24 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-18920">22</sup>They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-18921">23</sup>They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-18922">24</sup>And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

 

[gdemoss]

Gary What was the very first thing GOD ever said to man?

You do err in this, the first thing God said to man was actually found in chapter 2
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


This was said to Adam before Eve was created. The verse you quoted was after he had made both male and female. But I understand your point about being blessed by God.

Have a good day

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

You do err in this, the first thing God said to man was actually found in chapter 2
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


This was said to Adam before Eve was created. The verse you quoted was after he had made both male and female. But I understand your point about being blessed by God.

Have a good day

Gary

Reread Genesis 1:27-28

 

[gdemoss]

So, God did something Ahead of time that caused him to Grieve and have sorrow. Planed grief and sorrow. Interesting.

If you could supply the scripture for that, so I can add it to my notes I would be very thankful.

Jesus would experience grief and sorrow in the Garden of Gethsemane which was planned before the world ever was showing also that God knew that man would fall after he made them. The concept of the enduring the vessels fitted for destruction, which obviously cause him grief and sorrow, is another. He created us in his image and there is mounting evidence that man knowingly does things that will cause him grief and sorrow but also have in the end a reward. As far as debating election goes, I haven't even begun to touch the subject but have merely been discussing the full extent of Gods omniscience.

Praise be to the all knowing God who knew that I would suffer such things and end up in glory!

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Reread Genesis 1:27-28

I did, it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the first thing he said to man.

peace,

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I did, it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the first thing he said to man.

peace,

Gary

1:27 God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them

 

[gdemoss]

1:27 God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them

What is your point? I already acknowledged that God gave them a blessing. Somehow you think I am missing something?

Gary