An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[DHC]

Hello Daisy May.

Thank you for the reply, though your reply seemed some what limited.

For sure if someone says to themselves, heck I can sin freely now because I am saved, then there is something
perhaps suspicious there.

In absolute agreement with your statement Daisy and I still have never met a Christian who claimed
they could sin freely? Godliness is a doctrine, purity in lifestyle is mandatory for anyone who confesses
the name of Jesus Christ. Though there is a deeper level in Christ at which we move in the spirit, Daisy.
Loving others as Christ has loved us is the penultimate trait of the Christian.

I think people that strongly argue against OSAS, are in fact suggesting that they have lived a life that provides
them with merit outside of what Jesus did on the Cross.

Do not see the connection that you are making here Daisy? Anyone who claimed that they could
some how earn their salvation is seriously deceived. The concept of gaining your own salvation
through works of the law is foreign to the scripture. So too would be the idea that we could
somehow be good enough to gain credit by any other standard is likewise foreign to the scripture.
We stand in Christ only and our boast could never be other than in the 'finished' work of Christ.

I think people that strongly argue against OSAS, are in fact suggesting that they have lived
a life that provides them with merit outside of what Jesus did on the Cross.

Faulty logic here Daisy, to oppose OSAS does not infer that a person is seeking justification
by works. That is the way some folk see the opposition to OSAS but this is not logically true at all.

OSAS is an ideology based on various interpretations of scripture. OSAS maintains that God
does it all and we can do nothing to contribute to salvation. This is a one sided interpretation
of the scripture and is unbalanced.

Justification is wholly by God but there is the mandatory interaction required by any believer.
Sanctification is wrought by God to the WILLING recipient, if you resist the Holy Spirit's conviction.
If you satisfy the desires of the flesh while maintaining a superficial devotion to Jesus Christ, you
will in time fall away. Salvation is a two way street, God loves and you love, God cleanses and
you cleanse yourself. God gives so you give. God forgives and we forgive others. Two fold,
two way, double edged, you must respond to the full life in the Holy Spirit, as Christ did.

Not sure we can experience true freedom until we can accept OSAS.

True liberty is only experienced by those who abide in Christ. Liberty is granted by God
to those who obey His instruction set and walk as He walked. Seek and you will find,
forgive and you will be forgiven, ask and it will be given to you.

God sows and waters and we grow and eventually we bear fruit, but we are required to tick
some boxes along the way.

A spirit filled life is the true Christian life and not a series of intellectual statements that
sound just so good when we consider them. The real flaw in OSAS is evident simply in the
statement of 'once saved' this is not the teaching of the scripture. No person is once saved
in the past tense and this is never stated. We are told repeatedly that we must live in the
Spirit and the continuous abiding in Christ which is the Christian life. We persevere in Christ
throughout our entire life, we crucify the flesh daily and continue to crucify the flesh daily.

The Christian life is an active, dynamic existence and is continuous. It is based on the interplay
of the Holy Spirit within us. We worship God in the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh.
A life lived in Christ is a life that is eternal and free from condemnation. The way you live
is vitally connected to what you believe. What you believe determines how you behave
toward all and sundry. Paul's constant instruction was simply you believe now do it!

Faith without love is bankrupt as faith itself inspires love from a pure heart. Avoid
the theological premises and live the Christian life to it's fullest, for this you have been
called. A two way street of faith and love, not a one way street of theological purity.

 

[Daisy May]

For DHC

You said this.........

Anyone who claimed that they could
some how earn their salvation is seriously deceived. The concept of gaining your own salvation
through works of the law is foreign to the scripture. So too would be the idea that we could
somehow be good enough to gain credit by any other standard is likewise foreign to the scripture.
We stand in Christ only and our boast could never be other than in the 'finished' work of Christ.

I agree with that entire paragraph 150%, where on earth did you get the idea that I believed anything different? I said NOTHING that inferred that I believed other than that

I just shared Spurgeons writing on Once saved always saved, thought it was very good. I guess you did not read it ? If you had you would have known what you said of me was incorrect, because I agreed 150 % with Spurgeon, it would seem you do not agree with Spurgeon


Anybody that believes they can earn their salvation is absolutely deceived, Jesus payed the price on the cross, Salvation is a free gift of God not of works lest any man should boast,

I could not go to sleep until I corrected this .

Thanks

 

[Daisy May]

One last thing before I go to bed DHC, you put words in my mouth that I did not say for starters., I corrected that on previous post above, but then you went on very obnoxiously sounding much like a lecture.

Nowhere did I say that there was a way outside of the cross to earn salvation, that just goes against everything I believe. The Blood of Christ was shed for our sins, salvation is a free gift of god not of works lest any man should boast. There is no other way, none.

If you read what I said I also said it was suspicious if a Christian or someone that claimed to be a Christian, voted for abortion, gay marriage and the removal of God/Christ from the classroom/public square, perhaps you found that offensive, I also said I leave that To God, I just said I had a serious problem with such behavior from a so called Christian

When I see someone doing that, I wonder, yes I wonder if they truly ever received Jesus into their life

 

[farout]

One last thing before I go to bed DHC, you put words in my mouth that I did not say for starters., I corrected that on previous post above, but then you went on very obnoxiously sounding much like a lecture.

Nowhere did I say that there was a way outside of the cross to earn salvation, that just goes against everything I believe. The Blood of Christ was shed for our sins, salvation is a free gift of god not of works lest any man should boast. There is no other way, none.

If you read what I said I also said it was suspicious if a Christian or someone that claimed to be a Christian, voted for abortion, gay marriage and the removal of God/Christ from the classroom/public square, perhaps you found that offensive, I also said I leave that To God, I just said I had a serious problem with such behavior from a so called Christian

When I see someone doing that, I wonder, yes I wonder if they truly ever received Jesus into their life

How can I say how much I agree, beyond saying AMEN!!!!!!!

 

[farout]

Far all who are on this thread. Can anyone read John 10 and explain to me how it is when it clearly say we can not be plucked out of HIS hand, and give me a Scripture that says this is not true.

Please no snarky or haunty attitude. Respond in a kind loving way or I would rather not have a reply at all. I have no desire to get anger or a war going. Thank you very much. I am a beat. worn out, ill old fellow.

 

[DHC]

Far all who are on this thread. Can anyone read John 10 and explain to me how it is when it clearly say we can not be plucked out of HIS hand, and give me a Scripture that says this is not true.

Hello farout.

I will try not to cause you too much grief farout.

You are correct in the claim that you made;

"when it clearly say we can not be plucked out of HIS hand"

This holds true that those who believe in Jesus and tick the boxes will never be 'plucked out'
of God's loving hand. That is the promise that God has given us and no one may contradict
this statement of truth farout.

One needs to be careful not to generalize the statement below;

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them
out of My hand.

To generalize this statement would be to consider say the following concept. That it is
impossible to make choices during the Christian life that would be detrimental to our
faith and salvation. There are clear instructions within the scripture that must be
followed to avoid the possibility of discarding our faith. Emphasis is placed on the
personal decision making process and the warnings listed by God.

Be careful at this point to understand that no force in heaven or earth may dislodge
us from our destiny. Though there is a clause that the scripture repeatedly includes in
parallel to this verse (John 10:28). The clause states specifically, if you resist the conviction
of the Holy Spirit over an indeterminate period of time. You could very well shipwreck
your own faith.

Here is verse where God strictly warns us not to long for wealth.

1 Timothy 6
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have
wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Yes it does say 'wandered away from the faith'. So logically one may walk away from
God's protection by disregarding the warning on longing for wealth. This box needs
to be ticked, longing for wealth can shipwreck faith.

 

[UncleD]

We can never say that we cannot lose our salvation. There aremany references in the bible regarding backslidden Isarael whom Godbrought other nations against in order to get them to repent. We seeSamson who disobeyed God and the Spirit of God departed from Him (theglory of god depoarted from him). In the new testament we are warnedto beware of those who want to mislead the church.2 Cor 11. If Adamand Eve were walking and talking with God what spearated them fromHim … sin … disobedience. That sin … disobedience cost themtheir relationship with God. There is no difference today. Satanstill tries to get the true believer to sin. When we are born againand our Spirits and joined in relationship with Gods Spirit we aresanctified through the Word of God by the Holy Spirit who teaches usJn 14, Jn 16:12, 2 Cor 3, 1 Cor 3, Is 58. Mal 3:3.... (NASB)


In the book of Revelation we see how the seven churches arewarned. Rev 3:16, they thought they were rich in Christ, wealthy inwisdom and that they did not need anything but what did Jesus say tothem …. you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind andnaked. What does blind mean .. it means they could no longer discernspiritual things … what does naked mean … they no longer had onthe garments of salvation. Jesus advises them to buy from Him goldrefined in the fire (Mal 3:3, Ezek 36:22-38 … fire is judgementthey need to be sanctified by the Spirit of God through the Word ofGod Heb 8:10, Heb 4:12, Heb 5:11-14. (NASB).


Finally, Ezek 18 speaks about sin and who is responsible for it,let no one decieve you every man, woman and child (children who candiscern between right and wrong) will be answerable for their ownsin. Ezek 18:24 says it all though … But when a righeous man turnsaway from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according toall the abominations that the wicked man does, will he live? All hisrigheous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for histreachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committedfor them he will die. (NASB).


There is the danger that false teachers can mislead you away fromyou love for Christ for the love of the riches of this world. We areinstructed to keep our eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of ourfaith. If we walk in the Spirit we will not feed the flesh and itsinful deeds. We must remain in the light and have nothing to do thefruitless acts of darkness. The snake in the garden of Eden speaksof religion and Satan uses religion to try and seduce people awayfrom the tree of life to follow after other gods.

 

[RJ]

We can never say that we cannot lose our salvation. There aremany references in the bible regarding backslidden Isarael whom Godbrought other nations against in order to get them to repent. We seeSamson who disobeyed God and the Spirit of God departed from Him (theglory of god depoarted from him). In the new testament we are warnedto beware of those who want to mislead the church.2 Cor 11. If Adamand Eve were walking and talking with God what spearated them fromHim … sin … disobedience. That sin … disobedience cost themtheir relationship with God. There is no difference today. Satanstill tries to get the true believer to sin. When we are born againand our Spirits and joined in relationship with Gods Spirit we aresanctified through the Word of God by the Holy Spirit who teaches usJn 14, Jn 16:12, 2 Cor 3, 1 Cor 3, Is 58. Mal 3:3.... (NASB)


In the book of Revelation we see how the seven churches arewarned. Rev 3:16, they thought they were rich in Christ, wealthy inwisdom and that they did not need anything but what did Jesus say tothem …. you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind andnaked. What does blind mean .. it means they could no longer discernspiritual things … what does naked mean … they no longer had onthe garments of salvation. Jesus advises them to buy from Him goldrefined in the fire (Mal 3:3, Ezek 36:22-38 … fire is judgementthey need to be sanctified by the Spirit of God through the Word ofGod Heb 8:10, Heb 4:12, Heb 5:11-14. (NASB).


Finally, Ezek 18 speaks about sin and who is responsible for it,let no one decieve you every man, woman and child (children who candiscern between right and wrong) will be answerable for their ownsin. Ezek 18:24 says it all though … But when a righeous man turnsaway from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according toall the abominations that the wicked man does, will he live? All hisrigheous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for histreachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committedfor them he will die. (NASB).


There is the danger that false teachers can mislead you away fromyou love for Christ for the love of the riches of this world. We areinstructed to keep our eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of ourfaith. If we walk in the Spirit we will not feed the flesh and itsinful deeds. We must remain in the light and have nothing to do thefruitless acts of darkness. The snake in the garden of Eden speaksof religion and Satan uses religion to try and seduce people awayfrom the tree of life to follow after other gods.

I can appreciate your many quotes of the Old Testament but, I don't think they have much to do with the Christian, as there was none before Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. Think about these points:

• Jeremiah 31:31-34 , Colossians 1:27.... I think this is very important here. This is not like the Old Covenant, now God is in you. You will know him and he will remember your sin no more! If God remembers your sin no more what would make him remove himself. Hebrews 10:16, Hebrews 8:10
• Hebrews 13:5.....God said he would never leave you or forsake you! How in the world do you fall away from that?
• John 3:7..... Let me ask you this: You know that receiving Jesus spirit in you is your second birth, being "Born Again", right? How or show me, where it says, you can become unborn? So, your born...fall away and become unborn and then, if you work real hard...you become born again and on and on and on...I think not! Jesus only died once...how many more times do you think he will die and be shamed on the cross again? None!
• John 10:29.....Not even you can "fall away" out of God's hand...it is too big! Unless perhaps one is not truly "Born Again" or saved.
• I believe your use of Revelation 3:16 is wrong. Those who are "Luke Warm"...were those who where Head Christians, not Heart Christians. They were Christians only in name and not saved. I don't know about you but for me, there are many churches full of people who claim to be Christians but are not! In this case, it is better to be cold because there is still hope for most....luke warm is not good!

 

[james1523]

1 Timothy 6
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have
wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Yes it does say 'wandered away from the faith'. So logically one may walk away from
God's protection by disregarding the warning on longing for wealth. This box needs
to be ticked, longing for wealth can shipwreck faith.

And yet, God says "Heb 13:5 "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

We may give up on God but God never gives up on us. We can never be plucked out of His hand, because His presence is always abiding within us.

To lose salvation we have to lose the Savior, and since the Savior promised to never leave us, we can never lose salvation.

 

[james1523]

John 3:7..... Let me ask you this: You know that receiving Jesus spirit in you is your second birth, being "Born Again", right? How or show me, where it says, you can become unborn? So, your born...fall away and become unborn and then, if you work real hard...you become born again and on and on and on...I think not! Jesus only died once...how many more times do you think he will die and be shamed on the cross again? None!

That is a very good point. Being born again means two things: death to our old creation, and being born in the new creation. Jesus who died, and rose again. It can only happen once and can never be repeated. So we do not become saved then unsaved then saved again and unsaved again.
-We cannot receive the Spirit more than once, and He promised to never leave us.

The idea of the Spirit coming and going based upon our faithfulness, is an Old Testament concept. The New Testament is about the Spirit abiding permanently within the heart of the believer, based on His faithfulness, not our own.

 

[RJ]

That is a very good point. Being born again means two things: death to our old creation, and being born in the new creation. Jesus who died, and rose again. It can only happen once and can never be repeated. So we do not become saved then unsaved then saved again and unsaved again.
-We cannot receive the Spirit more than once, and He promised to never leave us.

The idea of the Spirit coming and going based upon our faithfulness, is an Old Testament concept. The New Testament is about the Spirit abiding permanently within the heart of the believer, based on His faithfulness, not our own.

I must have gone astray, we do believe in the same thing here.

 

[NoHype]

The point really is that our Lord Jesus saves us when He comes. Until then we only have His Promise of Salvation. Even the asleep saints idea is a metaphor to show they have yet to receive the promised rewards, and are in a state of rest and freedom from the trials and tribulations of this world. They're still awaiting Christ's coming and the Kingdom to manifest too.

We are to 'consider' ourselves as dead already to this world, as long as we stay in the walk with Christ (per Romans). Yet there's more going on especially for us in these last days.

What's going to happen to brethren in Christ who fall away to wrongly bow in false worship to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ in the near coming tribulation? Many will actually think that is our Lord Jesus having come, because that's what our Lord's warning in Matt.24:23-26 was really about.

That's really the gist of the times we are facing today with the tribulation very near and to occur in this present generation. Jesus showed He will close the door on the five foolish virgins who failed to have that spare vessel of the Oil. Will they still be saved during His thousand years reign even though they allowed theirselves to be deceived into worshiping the wrong Jesus (i.e., the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11)? Yes, I am almost positive those will be saved by Christ when He returns, yet their place will still be outside the 'door' during that thousand years. And just who else will be outside that door with them in that future time? The wicked and unbelieving, i.e., those of Rev.22:15, those in the "outer darkness" outside the gates of the holy city.

So I admonish brethren here to re-consider what the idea of falling away can mean for our times today, since our Lord Jesus' coming is so close, and because of the test of the tribulation we must go through first. I know some of you have been told you're gonna' be raptured out of here prior to the coming tribulation, but I'd want to be careful about that 1830's idea which the early Church fathers never had, as it can lead directly to thinking the pseudo-Christ that comes first will be our true Lord Jesus.

Thus the real heart of the matter is then, where... do you want to wind up after our Lord Jesus' second coming? Don't think for a minute that He will allow us near Him if we mess up and wrongly worship the pseudo-Christ that comes first playing Him. That's what His and His Apostles metaphors about us remaining as "a chaste virgin" waiting on His return are about. It means His Church here on earth for the tribulation faces a trial that none of God's people ever have had to face yet in this present world, that of the coming pseudo-Christ that will have power to works great signs and wonders to cause the majority of the world to believe he truly is God.

We are going to see close friends and family fall away to that pseudo-Christ, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus. Even some in our very own household will fall to that and wonder why some of us will refuse to accept him as Lord. And because of that, some of us will be delivered up to the pseudo-Christ's councils and synagogues (yes, Churches that will be deceived). The mark will be the universal panacea for the world and many brethren will see it as part of Christ's Salvation. You'll be offered to pay off your debts, anything you want, as long as you agree to bow to that false one and take his mark. That alone will seal the fate of many who just cannot do without their 'things' of this world.

Therefore, the matter for us is about either appearing spiritually naked and ashamed when our Lord Jesus comes, or sitting down to sup with Him in His Kingdom as one of His faithful servants. For brethren not yet aware of this coming event of the pseudo-Christ coming to actually play the role of our Lord Jesus Christ, with a time of "Peace and safety" upon the earth and everyone's problems offered to being solved by that fake Christ with all power to do great signs and lying wonders, you might want to break open your Bible a bit more and study for yourself, as most Churches today are not going to warn you about this coming event.

 

[RJ]

The point really is that our Lord Jesus saves us when He comes. Until then we only have His Promise of Salvation.

• Wow, you really believe that?
• Help me out here: O.K., you are not currently saved, you only have a promise to be saved?
• You are a Christian right now , right?
• If you are a Christian, isn't Christ in you now?
• If Christ is in you, isn't this already true: Ephesians 2:8
• If the above Ephesian verse is not true , will you please explain?

 

[NoHype]

The point really is that our Lord Jesus saves us when He comes. Until then we only have His Promise of Salvation.

• Wow, you really believe that?
• Help me out here: O.K., you are not currently saved, you only have a promise to be saved?
• You are a Christian right now , right?
• If you are a Christian, isn't Christ in you now?
• If Christ is in you, isn't this already true: Ephesians 2:8
• If the above Ephesian verse is not true , will you please explain?

Wow! You believe Christ's Kingdom has already come today on earth?
You mean our Lord Jesus is already HERE and there is no second coming?!?
You mean the wickedness in the world today really is not wickedness? because all wickedness is prophesied to cease when Jesus is here?
You mean you already know who the coming pseudo-Christ is, think he's already been here in the past too?!?

Why don't you just admit that you prefer what the New World Order is up to today with trying to deceive the Churches into thinking that Christ already returned and that's it's up to mankind to bring in His Kingdom today?

 

[RJ]

Wow! You believe Christ's Kingdom has already come today on earth?

• You mean our Lord Jesus is already HERE and there is no second coming?!? Ah..no!?...where did I say that?
• You mean the wickedness in the world today really is not wickedness? because all wickedness is prophesied to cease when Jesus is here? Ah...no!? ...where did I say that?

• You mean you already know who the coming pseudo-Christ is, think he's already been here in the past too?!? Ah...no!?....where did I say that!?

Why don't you just admit that you prefer what the New World Order is up to today with trying to deceive the Churches into thinking that Christ already returned and that's it's up to mankind to bring in His Kingdom today?

I couldn't be further from that kind of non-sense...find were I have said such a thing and where in the world did you come up with that.

• For most Christians your above statement : "The point really is that our Lord Jesus saves us when He comes. Until then we only have His Promise of Salvation." is pretty radical from most common teachings.
• I honestly don't understand why is it every time I ask you a question you never answer but just ask me questions.
• Well, I answered yours, why don't you give the same curtsy and answer mine?
• If you can just please answer this one question: what is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8. That will go a long way to help me know where your coming from, so I can better understand your responses. Right now, I am at a total loss.

 

[farout]

Here is a question I have for either way you believe OSAS or YMLI (you may lose it)

How do you know for sure your saved? Are you saved now? And how do you know it for sure?

 

[RJ]

Here is a question I have for either way you believe OSAS or YMLI (you may lose it)

How do you know for sure your saved? Are you saved now? And how do you know it for sure?

I know.
Don't you know?
Other than what the scripture says to me to confirm it, I just some how know, it is a personal thing, no one has to tell me, I guess it is the Holy Spirit in me.
If your a Christian, don't you just know?

 

[B-A-C]

If your a Christian, don't you just know?

Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

So did these believers "just know"? I'm sure if you asked a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Unitarian Universalist, they would all tell you.
"We just know we are".

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt 25:11; Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’
Matt 25:12; But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

 

[RJ]

Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

So did these believers "just know"? I'm sure if you asked a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Unitarian Universalist, they would all tell you.
"We just know we are".

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

• The potential difference between the two of us that is , I really know; can't say about others. You have no way of knowing that; it is like I said, God knows, not man, and that's all that is important to me.
• Also, another possible contention for disagreement are the two verses you quoted: To me, they are truly about non-believers and Jesus will separate them out at judgement, that is the meaning of the verses!
• There are Head Christians and there are Heart Christians. Head Christians know of Jesus as well as anyone, Satin for one! Heart Christians have Christ in them; that is the separation factor. Add no, there are no verses that point this out directly Per Se...I just know!
• B.T.W., if you don't agree that Satin is a "Head Christian", who do you think the Anti-Christ will be?

 

[DHC]

Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

So did these believers "just know"? I'm sure if you asked a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Unitarian Universalist, they would all tell you.
"We just know we are".

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt 25:11; Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’
Matt 25:12; But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Hello B-A-C.

There are two sets of religious folk that fail on judgement day.

Matthew 7-21:23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he
who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on
that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out
demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 25:41-43
Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the
eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry,
and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me;
sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

What is the common ingredient that is missing in both groups?