An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[NoHype]

• To edify those following this thread and with respect, the thread that you responded to was for Last things and not you.
• What you say ignores the scriptures and explanation that I gave and say "not quite accurate". What is not accurate about the truths" wide is the path and narrow the gate" or "those who find it are few". This is for the Jew or the Gentile.
• God has made the old covenent obselete Hebrews 8:13. When he did that, He made it obselete for the Jew also. If a Jew dies in unbeleif of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Saviour, they will not go to heaven. That would be the "unpardonable sin"!
• Yes Jesus did say : Matthew 5:17 but what he meant was that he fulfilled the law and that was according to fulfilling by the standards Jewish Eschatology for which the Orthodox Jew rejects him as Messiah/Savior.

The part you've missed is about your statement regarding those cast out of the banquet. At that particular time... of that, those are not saved. Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign, and that's the part you're obviously missing from God's Word. Romans 11 by Paul reveals how that is so, which is why I referenced it.

The reason why this point is often missed in many Churches is because of the lack of line upon line Bible teaching in both the Old Testament and New Testament Books together. So you are definitely not alone in that brother.

 

[RJ]

The part you've missed is about your statement regarding those cast out of the banquet. At that particular time... of that, those are not saved. Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign, and that's the part you're obviously missing from God's Word. Romans 11 by Paul reveals how that is so, which is why I referenced it.

The reason why this point is often missed in many Churches is because of the lack of line upon line Bible teaching in both the Old Testament and New Testament Books together. So you are definitely not alone in that brother.

• I have tried many times to get you to answer a simple yes or no question. Let me try 2 this time:
• Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign. We are not in the mileneum right now, so dead in your sins is dead in your sins....If someone dies right now and is a non-believer do they go to heaven?
• So you are definitely not alone in that brother. So let me get this straight, you are right and everyone else are wrong?

 

[RJ]

The part you've missed is about your statement regarding those cast out of the banquet. At that particular time... of that, those are not saved. Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign, and that's the part you're obviously missing from God's Word. Romans 11 by Paul reveals how that is so, which is why I referenced it.
The reason why this point is often missed in many Churches is because of the lack of line upon line Bible teaching in both the Old Testament and New Testament Books together. So you are definitely not alone in that brother.

I have tried many times to get you to answer a simple yes or no question. Let me try 2 this time:Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign. We are not in the mileneum right now, so dead in your sins is dead in your sins....If someone dies right now and is a non-believer do they go to heaven?
So you are definitely not alone in that brother. So let me get this straight, you are right and everyone else are wrong?

• If you don't want to answer these with a yes or no answer would you please explain your interpretation of the following verses:

1. Hebrews 8:13
2. Matthew 5:17
3. Hebrews 8:6
4. Galatians 5:14

 

[Seeker Of Jesus]

I don't mean to sway a little bit from the topic but could someone please explain the 1000 year reign (millennium) of Christ to me? Thats been a mystery to me. Who will enter into the Millennium reign? Will unbelievers take part in it? Will Jesus Himself be physically present with humanity? What is the purpose of the coming millennium reign?

 

[farout]

I don't mean to sway a little bit from the topic but could someone please explain the 1000 year reign (millennium) of Christ to me? Thats been a mystery to me. Who will enter into the Millennium reign? Will unbelievers take part in it? Will Jesus Himself be physically present with humanity? What is the purpose of the coming millennium reign?

Seeker: Yes, this is a side track issue that really you need to start a new thread on. The Once Saved Always Saved, is a very contentious thread, and has brought out some very strong emotions

So my opinion is start a new thread, maybe more kindness will come out in the 1000 year reign

 

[Seeker Of Jesus]

Seeker: Yes, this is a side track issue that really you need to start a new thread on. The Once Saved Always Saved, is a very contentious thread, and has brought out some very strong emotions

So my opinion is start a new thread, maybe more kindness will come out in the 1000 year reign

I fully understand, I'll start a new thread now. For everyone else please disregard my post here and if you wish to answer my questions, post in the thread I'm about to start

 

[NoHype]

• I have tried many times to get you to answer a simple yes or no question. Let me try 2 this time:
• Doesn't mean they will not be saved in final though during Christ's "thousand years" reign. We are not in the mileneum right now, so dead in your sins is dead in your sins....If someone dies right now and is a non-believer do they go to heaven?
• So you are definitely not alone in that brother. So let me get this straight, you are right and everyone else are wrong?

Like I said, many brethren are ignorant of how God blinded Israel in part per Paul in Rom.11 so that The Gospel would go to the Gentiles also, and thus many think unbelieving Jews are all lost. Not understanding that is mainly because of the lack of Old Testament study in the prophets.

 

[RJ]

Like I said, many brethren are ignorant of how God blinded Israel in part per Paul in Rom.11 so that The Gospel would go to the Gentiles also, and thus many think unbelieving Jews are all lost. Not understanding that is mainly because of the lack of Old Testament study in the prophets.

• NoHype, I will say this for you and brakelite, you both sure know how to not answer a direct question!
• God bless both of you and your theology.

 

[farout]

• NoHype, I will say this for you and brakelite, you both sure know how to not answer a direct question!
• God bless both of you and your theology.

Opinions mean NOTHING! Quoting the Bible has power, and it requires more effort. Wen I repeat something I heard in a sermon or radio program that may or may not be correct, but it's so much easier. Maybe if I said "somewhere in the Bible it says" could be better?

By not using scripture that's how these false teachers / preachers get away with some of the outlandish lies they do. Benny Hinn saying there 9 things in the God Head, what a nut case! How about asking people to send money for seed faith, they say the Bible says to make people rich, send in seed faith money so they too an be rich. Sound like TBN?

Unless we KNOW what the BIBLE really says we are open to believe most anything, just because a preacher says so. There is nothing more truthful and trustworthy than the BIBLE.

 

[Last Things]

• Well, I always start with the premise that there is a difference between understanding (knowing) and ultimately unbelief (or denying). Satan probably knows the truth better than we do but he remains in denial and will not accept Jesus Christ.
• A common definition of a Parable would be a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
• The parables that we are discussing here are stories of a Jewish bride and groom of old and there wedding feast and now, Jesus as the groom and man as the bride and the ultimate banquet in heaven.
• The verses including parallel are a bit different, but for me, have the same out come, there were those who did not believe: Luke 14:7-14, Luke 14:15-24 and Matthew 22:1-14
• The key is in the above Matthew 22 verse 14: "For many are called but few are chosen".
• This is a common thread through out the scriptures, that God seperates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff or the believers from the non-believers...here is another one: Matthew 7:13-14 "Those who find it are few"!
• These people that were excluded from the banquet were non-believers and not saved.

You seemed to have avoided what I asked?

But they did believe they were saved- so how are you sure?

 

[RJ]

You seemed to have avoided what I asked?

But they did believe they were saved- so how are you sure?

• Sorry, so what did you ask?
• I just stated why I believe they were not saved, you have the right to believe otherwise.
• How am I sure? I will state it again:

1. "This is a common thread through out the scriptures, that God seperates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the chaff or the believers from the non-believers...here is another one: Matthew 7:13-14 "Those who find it are few"! These people that were excluded from the banquet were non-believers and not saved".
2. Also, the point of the Parable of the Wedding Feast, God sent His Son into the world, and the very people who should have celebrated His coming rejected Him, bringing judgment upon themselves. As a result, the kingdom of heaven was opened up to anyone who will set aside his own righteousness and by faith accept the righteousness God provides in Christ. Those who spurn the gift of salvation and cling instead to their own “good” works will spend eternity in hell.
3. Again, the self-righteous Pharisees who heard this parable did not miss Jesus’ point. In the following verse, “the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words” (Matthew 22:15). The Parable of the Wedding Feast is also a warning to us, to make sure we are relying on God’s provision of salvation, not on our own good works or religious service.

 

[NoHype]

Opinions mean NOTHING! Quoting the Bible has power, and it requires more effort. Wen I repeat something I heard in a sermon or radio program that may or may not be correct, but it's so much easier. Maybe if I said "somewhere in the Bible it says" could be better?

By not using scripture that's how these false teachers / preachers get away with some of the outlandish lies they do. Benny Hinn saying there 9 things in the God Head, what a nut case! How about asking people to send money for seed faith, they say the Bible says to make people rich, send in seed faith money so they too an be rich. Sound like TBN?

Unless we KNOW what the BIBLE really says we are open to believe most anything, just because a preacher says so. There is nothing more truthful and trustworthy than the BIBLE.

And some have real short attention spans, because they don't want to read a post that includes many Scripture quotes that prove the message of posters like myself.

 

[farout]

And some have real short attention spans, because they don't want to read a post that includes many Scripture quotes that prove the message of posters like myself.

Some only read short post's. they only want quick answers. Your make great effort to give a solid foundation foor youuur post's Thanks, I do read them!

 

[Daisy May]

<tt>CHARLES SPURGEON ON ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED From Morning and evening daily readings FEB 13 EVENING just happened upon it in my devotions recently, a very good Christian man, that had few if any enemies I would guess

"There is therefore now no condemnation."—Romans 8:1.OME, my soul, think thou of this. Believing in Jesus, thou art actually and effectually cleared from guilt; thou art led out of thy prison. Thou art no more in fetters as a bond-slave; thou art delivered now from the bondage of the law; thou art freed from sin, and canst walk at large as a freeman, thy Saviour's blood has procured thy full discharge. Thou hast a right now to approach thy Father's throne. No flames of vengeance are there to scare thee now; no fiery sword; justice cannot smite the innocent. Thy disabilities are taken away: thou wast once unable to see thy Father's face: thou canst see it now. Thou couldst not speak with Him: but now thou hast access with boldness. Once there was a fear of hell upon thee; but thou hast no fear of it now, for how can there be punishment for the guiltless? He who believeth is not condemned, and cannot be punished. And more than all, the privileges thou mightst have enjoyed, if thou hadst never sinned, are thine now thou art justified. All the blessings which thou wouldst have had if thou hadst kept the law, and more, are thine, because Christ has kept it for thee. All the love and the acceptance which perfect obedience could have obtained of God, belong to thee, because Christ was perfectly obedient on thy behalf, and hath imputed all His merits to thy account, that thou mightst be exceeding rich through Him, who for thy sake became exceeding poor. Oh! how great the debt of love and gratitude thou owest to thy Saviour!"A debtor to mercy alone,Of covenant mercy I sing;Nor fear with Thy righteousness on,My person and offerings to bring:The terrors of law and of God,With me can have nothing to do;My Saviour's obedience and bloodHide all my transgressions from view."</tt>

 

[DHC]

<tt>CHARLES SPURGEON ON ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED From Morning and evening daily readings FEB 13 EVENING just happened upon it in my devotions recently, a very good Christian man, that had few if any enemies I would guess

"There is therefore now no condemnation."—Romans 8:1.OME, my soul, think thou of this. Believing in Jesus, thou art actually and effectually cleared from guilt; thou art led out of thy prison. Thou art no more in fetters as a bond-slave; thou art delivered now from the bondage of the law; thou art freed from sin, and canst walk at large as a freeman, thy Saviour's blood has procured thy full discharge. Thou hast a right now to approach thy Father's throne. No flames of vengeance are there to scare thee now; no fiery sword; justice cannot smite the innocent. Thy disabilities are taken away: thou wast once unable to see thy Father's face: thou canst see it now. Thou couldst not speak with Him: but now thou hast access with boldness. Once there was a fear of hell upon thee; but thou hast no fear of it now, for how can there be punishment for the guiltless? He who believeth is not condemned, and cannot be punished. And more than all, the privileges thou mightst have enjoyed, if thou hadst never sinned, are thine now thou art justified. All the blessings which thou wouldst have had if thou hadst kept the law, and more, are thine, because Christ has kept it for thee. All the love and the acceptance which perfect obedience could have obtained of God, belong to thee, because Christ was perfectly obedient on thy behalf, and hath imputed all His merits to thy account, that thou mightst be exceeding rich through Him, who for thy sake became exceeding poor. Oh! how great the debt of love and gratitude thou owest to thy Saviour!"A debtor to mercy alone,Of covenant mercy I sing;Nor fear with Thy righteousness on,My person and offerings to bring:The terrors of law and of God,With me can have nothing to do;My Saviour's obedience and bloodHide all my transgressions from view."</tt>

Hello Daisy May.

Spurgeon has a nice way with words, very colorful.

The following line illustrates that Spurgeon understood the reality of the Gospel.

because Christ was perfectly obedient on thy behalf, and hath imputed all His merits to thy account

Well done Daisy May.

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

I am always amazed at how excited people become when the topic of 'OSAS' is raised for debate.

Pistols at ten paces.

There are very strong arguments on both sides and this has always been the case.

I would choose the middle ground and stay undecided, why commit either way and risk error.

Osas is not an essential doctrine of the scripture, it is not necessary for salvation. As this doctrine
does not form the essential teaching of the scripture. We are taught to love one another as Christ
has loved us. Love is the fruit of the Spirit within and the direct reflection of Christ.

You will never 'fall away' by abiding in Christ and you cannot fall because God would never let you go.

An each way bet is the safer option.

 

[Daisy May]

For sure if someone says to themselves, heck I can sin freely now because I am saved, then there is something perhaps suspicious there. I think the response is supposed to be more like this....WOW I am forever free, I have nothing now to ever fear again, and out of that realization comes a desire all the more to not want to sin against the Lord. Thank You Jesus for dying on the cross for me, I am so so grateful. Like you say DHC lets not test the theory.

Then on the other hand, to suggest its not the case OSAS, is troubling. People that argue that it`s not, are somehow saying that what Jesus did was not enough, that they need to somehow earn their salvation. We know that no human being that has ever lived can be saved by their own merits, so sometimes I think people that strongly argue against OSAS, are in fact suggesting that they have lived a life that provides them with merit outside of what Jesus did on the Cross.

I have difficulty with people that say they have accepted Christ yet vote for abortion, gay marriage and the removal of Christ from the public square, I have a real serious problem with that, I have to leave that with The Lord, but very suspicious to me these folks are,

So we need to be very very sure that we did actually receive Jesus into our lives in the first place, But yes I believe in OSAS, to believe the opposite is much more unscriptural, and yes I do believe in OSAS.

Not sure we can experience true freedom until we can accept that, but for sure we are to turn from our sin nevertheless BTW God be merciful to me a sinner Help me not to grieve the Precious Holy Spirit that dwells in me

 

[RJ]

For sure if someone says to themselves, heck I can sin freely now because I am saved, then there is something perhaps suspicious there. I think the response is supposed to be more like this....WOW I am forever free, I have nothing now to ever fear again, and out of that realization comes a desire all the more to not want to sin against the Lord. Thank You Jesus for dying on the cross for me, I am so so grateful. Like you say DHC lets not test the theory.

Then on the other hand, to suggest its not the case OSAS, is troubling. People that argue that it`s not, are somehow saying that what Jesus did was not enough, that they need to somehow earn their salvation. We know that no human being that has ever lived can be saved by their own merits, so sometimes I think people that strongly argue against OSAS, are in fact suggesting that they have lived a life that provides them with merit outside of what Jesus did on the Cross.

I have difficulty with people that say they have accepted Christ yet vote for abortion, gay marriage and the removal of Christ from the public square, I have a real serious problem with that, I have to leave that with The Lord, but very suspicious to me these folks are,

So we need to be very very sure that we did actually receive Jesus into our lives in the first place, But yes I believe in OSAS, to believe the opposite is much more unscriptural, and yes I do believe in OSAS.

Not sure we can experience true freedom until we can accept that, but for sure we are to turn from our sin nevertheless BTW God be merciful to me a sinner Help me not to grieve the Precious Holy Spirit that dwells in me

• There are several here that just can't accept that God, in his infinite wisdom and perfection has created a plan that is fool-proof because it eliminates any kind of works from man to secure their salvation.
• Well said Daisy!

 

[Last Things]

• There are several here that just can't accept that God, in his infinite wisdom and perfection has created a plan that is fool-proof because it eliminates any kind of works from man to secure their salvation.
• Well said Daisy!

I don't think you quite get the non-OSAS view. This is what it is:
God gives us free will and we are free to choose Him or reject Him (to small or large degrees at every moment).
The more we sin, the further we are removed from Him in our own hearts. He is constantly calling us to Himself and all we need to do is turn.

It is a relationship, and like all relationships, it needs work. We need to spend time together. We need our relationship to bring joy and love to others (all human relationships should be positive towards otherwise). In time, we can lose contact with others and the relationship dies. OSAS is seen as problematic because it says that a person does not need to do anything. There is always going to be a relationship. It also teaches that we have no free will to reject God.

In this view, it is not about works. People stress works because they think it is about earning it. In our view we never earn it. We have a loving Father that just wants us to nurture our relationship with Him. We have a loving Father that gives us gifts of grace so that we can stay focused on Him despite all the temptations of the world. We do not believe salvation is earned. We are simply accepting a gift at every moment of our lives that others do not.

 

[RJ]

I don't think you quite get the non-OSAS view. This is what it is:
God gives us free will and we are free to choose Him or reject Him (to small or large degrees at every moment).
The more we sin, the further we are removed from Him in our own hearts. He is constantly calling us to Himself and all we need to do is turn.

It is a relationship, and like all relationships, it needs work. We need to spend time together. We need our relationship to bring joy and love to others (all human relationships should be positive towards otherwise). In time, we can lose contact with others and the relationship dies. OSAS is seen as problematic because it says that a person does not need to do anything. There is always going to be a relationship. It also teaches that we have no free will to reject God.

In this view, it is not about works. People stress works because they think it is about earning it. In our view we never earn it. We have a loving Father that just wants us to nurture our relationship with Him. We have a loving Father that gives us gifts of grace so that we can stay focused on Him despite all the temptations of the world. We do not believe salvation is earned. We are simply accepting a gift at every moment of our lives that others do not.

I think the opposite is true... You do not quite get OSAS.

• OSAS is seen as problematic because it says that a person does not need to do anything ....Please show me where it says that, it is not true.
• I started this thread 6 years ago, please go back and read that initial post please.
• Also, you deny your kinship to works when you say " that a person does not need to do anything"...you are intimating that a person continually has to do something, which is works !
• Jesus died once for all. His salvation is a gift, how many times in your life must you ask for or receive this one gift? Ephesians 2:8 .....what if you forget to do it one time, then what? What if you sinned but didn't realize it...what then?
• And no, a OSAS believer doesn't not think he can wilfully sin and there is no condemnation, that is no Christian. But when I do sin and realize it, I have a repentant heart and thank Jesus for what he has provided. And if I don't remember( 24/7), that is already taken care of. Why should I ask him to forgive me or do something he has already done? Romans 8:1