An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[gdemoss]

Gary, you scoffed at my reference to seeds being people as if that was no such thing. You were wrong.

Your perception of what I was saying was and still is skewed. Maybe you think that I am only interested in mocking you?

If I have been fallible, it is only because I'm just a moron in Christ. His Spirit guides me and empowers me to do a number of ministries which touch the hearts of many, many people. It isn't me, I'm less than nothing. The proof is in the power, and not in what I know or what I say

.

As I have said before, God is not unrighteous to forget your work of love to others.

In fact, from what I can discern in the scriptures, God would rather someone erred in doctrine than to wield wisdom without love, humility, and mercy.

That does not mean I feel you have a lot of wisdom. I feel you have a lot of warped doctrines you have created by not listening in to the Holy Spirit of God, but listening to your flesh or some other deceitful spirit.

I know what you believe I am being subject to and as I have stated before, I used to believe as you do but God has seen fit to show me that those doctrines are false and need to be rejected.

You reference God as a "destroyer" and not as a "saver." That's a fundamental misconception of God. And you know I'm someone who readily recognize the truth about falling away! So perhaps you might listen to me? Perhaps God sent me to this forum to show you something? God will not force His way into anyone's radar screen if they are bent on pursuing their own doctrine.

I may overemphasize the "destroyer" side of God over the "Savior" side but that is due to the overwhelming error of others who see him only as a "Savior". Perhaps God is using me to show you something? The same God who destroyed those who he brought out of Egypt that were disobedient and unbelieving will also destroy Christians who are the same. And it is as you say "God will not force himself upon you if you are bent on pursuing your own doctrine."

When we pursue doctrine without acknowledging the "weightier" things such as mercy, love, and humility, and faithfulness, we end up puffed up with pride, ready to judge unrighteously, in grave error.

Mercy is not condemning those who I have the righteous right to condemn and I do not do that. Love is not allowing someone to sit and rot in their sin thinking they are seen by God as Jesus Christ but instead being honest with them that they need to repent. Humility is me before God always praying that he guide and direct me in all things as I am nothing without him directing my steps. In your distorted picture of me all you see is someone who is full of pride that is on a witch hunt to pull out the whip and whack the backs of fools. That is your perception and vision. It isn't who I am at all. Maybe you'd like to talk on the phone sometime so that you can hear me when I speak? I read the bible for a long time before I truly understood that most of Paul's letters were stained with tears of love. Especially 1 Corinthians where he was doing nothing more than pointing out their every flaw and error, commanding them to repent and obey or else face judgment by Christ in that day. Jesus loved many people who didn't love him. Paul found a lot of the same. So do we, if we do it right.

If you don't receive these messages, so be it. I won't bother anymore. It's not on my head.

You have tried. I have refused. If you are right then my blood is upon my own head, tis true. It is God who is the potter. He has seen fit to continue to allow me to believe the doctrine I do that is based solely on scripture kept within its own context.

I have tried to help you see the truth that you do not and I fail. I fail because I am blind to what it is that stands in your way of accepting it as truth. God loves you as deeply as you say he does. You understand that there is a commitment on our parts of being faithful to him in order to receive eternal life. You stop short of saying that it is something that we as followers of Christ must push to do with all our might everyday in order to be chosen. This is where you and I part ways as I believe that I must give my all or suffer rejection. I must live up to the standard that is in Jesus Christ and present my body as a living sacrifice for God the Father who uses it to reconcile the world unto himself just as he did Christ. I believe that he was busy doing that for Peter when he spoke through Jesus and said "get thee behind me Satan" as well as through Paul when he withstood Peter to the face. Yes, we need to love one another by openly sharing all of our possessions and giving to the poor and needy. We need to be a shoulder to cry on and someone to cry with when necessary. But more than anything we need to be righteous before a Holy God seeking to save that which is lost. Unfortunately it is the church who is lost at this point in our present age. Just as Israel was lost when Jesus came.

I only wish you could understand but I don't think you will,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

What does this scripture mean?

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

It means that it is not of ourselves but only through Jesus that we may have these things.

 

[David777]

Hello again.

This is your reply gdemoss,

It means that it is not of ourselves but only through Jesus that we may have these things.

Now can you explain your definition of sanctification for me.

This is your definition,

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

In particular this process of dying to oneself?

I assumed this was only possible under the power of the Holy Spirit.
I cannot see where man initiates one dot in the process?

 

[gdemoss]

This is your reply gdemoss,

It means that it is not of ourselves but only through Jesus that we may have these things.

Now can you explain your definition of sanctification for me.

This is your definition,

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

In particular this process of dying to oneself?

I assumed this was only possible under the power of the Holy Spirit.
I cannot see where man initiates one dot in the process?

You don't think that you possess the ability to die to yourself? As Paul said, "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." I suffer death everyday. It is my part of the process. Jesus told his followers that they must do this and they didn't have the Holy Spirit. He doesn't expect someone to do something they cannot. What we cannot do is atone for our own sin. We must be made accepted in the beloved through his blood. The Holy Spirit isn't required to abstain from sin either. We can, through the power of our own spirit, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul. Before I ever knew God, I understood this was possible. I didn't always choose to commit sin every time I had an opportunity. I had a very weak spirit but not completely without strength to resist the power of darkness. Once I received the Holy Spirit that would quicken my mortal flesh things became a lot easier though. We, like John the Baptist, need to wax strong in spirit as we are taught by God through the faith that comes by hearing what he has said is true.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[jari]

why does bible talk of salvation if you aren't really saved according to some of you..?

Romans 10:10-11

 

[David777]

What does this mean?

This problem is escalating?

You replied,

"I didn't always choose to commit sin every time I had an opportunity. I had a very weak spirit but not completely without strength to resist the power of darkness. Once I received the Holy Spirit that would quicken my mortal flesh things became a lot easier though"

Whether you committed sin at every opportunity or not is irrevelant gdemoss. You were already dead in your sin.

Without the Holy Spirit you resisted the power of darkness?
How would you possibly know what the power of darkness was without the Holy Spirit gdemoss. You would have been totally under its control.

Read the following please,

Ephesians 2:1 (NKJV)

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

I agree with you 100%.

Romans 10:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[gdemoss]

Was Jesus a sarcastic man?

This problem is escalating?

You replied,

"I didn't always choose to commit sin every time I had an opportunity. I had a very weak spirit but not completely without strength to resist the power of darkness. Once I received the Holy Spirit that would quicken my mortal flesh things became a lot easier though"

Whether you committed sin at every opportunity or not is irrevelant gdemoss. You were already dead in your sin.

irrelevant only to the fact that I couldn't save myself. Dead in trespass and sin, yes.

Without the Holy Spirit you resisted the power of darkness?
How would you possibly know what the power of darkness was without the Holy Spirit gdemoss. You would have been totally under its control.

Not true. Now that I have the Holy Spirit I can, in hindsight, discern where I fought against the power of darkness prior to knowing God. Anyone can do it. Israel didn't have the Holy Spirit and there were those who walked righteously before God such as John the Baptists parents.

Read the following please,

Ephesians 2:1 (NKJV)

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Yes, I know the scripture as well as the difference between when I was dead in sin and trespass and now that I have been made alive. That doesn't change anything about what I have said. My testimony is still the same.

Good day,

Gary

 

[jari]

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[David777]

Yes Jari.

Salvation is a gift from God. Yes.

The Bible, His Revelation is also a gift.

Faith is a gift from God.

Sanctification is a gift from God.

It is all from above, handed down to those in the darkness, us.

Love is from God, all is from God, even our existence.

Lest the flesh should boast.

gdemoss you cannot die to self unless you are enabled to do so.

 

[gdemoss]

gdemoss you cannot die to self unless you are enabled to do so.

Scripture please.

 

[jari]

we were dead in our sins if God now quickens us through Holy spirit we are no longer dead in sins.

thefore even we sin we are still alive in Christ.

 

[David777]

Yo gdemoss.

Here are two passages that may shed more light:

Romans 8:12-13 ESV

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death
the deeds of the body, you will live.


Romans 12:1-2 ESV

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies
as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,
that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

The renewal above is explained in the following:

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy,
by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

 

[brakelite]

Nailed!!!

Again, you have created a very dangerous doctrine. So allow me to ask you again, when was the last time you sinned? Were you destined to hell at that moment if Jesus returned right then or you died at that moment?

You suggest these things because you chose to neglect the merciful, forgiving, and just nature of our LORD.

For the sake of anyone who wants to know the truth about sin and our walk, I will point out only one scripture which says it all:

Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This scripture says it all. When follow the simple teachings of God, we will get deeper and deeper into His Spirit. His Spirit will manifest more and more, and we won't even consider sinning.

However, if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father! (emphasis mine):

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we keep our head straight with sin, knowing it's not good for our walk with the Lord, He will supernaturally clear our sinful urges out of us as He sanctifies us with His word and His Spirit:

Romans 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

The whole point of this passage is not, as some suggest, to simply accept sin in our lives. And it is not, as it seems some others on the other extreme may suggest, that if we are not walking in His Spirit to the utmost that we are lost and hopeless.

Rather, it is simply the perspective we must maintain as Christians so we are workable for the Holy Spirit and the word of God, that They may work in our hearts and sanctify us as we grow and mature in Him.


May I suggest something in humility? We will not be perfect in these fleshly vessels, but we have access to perfection in Christ Jesus' Spirit. Additionally, we are not obligated to walk perfectly in His Spirit at all times to maintain our salvation.

Rather, we are extended grace as we grow and mature in Christ.

You have nailed it my friend. Well said. How difficult it is for us human beings to accept that there is nothing we can contribute to our salvation. Human pride is at odds with such a concept.
Yet the more we surrender to our Saviour, the more we contemplate and meditate upon the wondrous works of God through Jesus at Calvary, the more we come to a greater appreciation of His love. His love is power.
We are saved by grace through faith. Faith however must be exercised. As we choose to believe God responds by granting us His power to overcome sin. And as we draw nearer to Him and our love grows sin becomes more and more obnoxious. In our understandable reaction against 'cheap grace' and 'once saved always saved' extreme on the one hand we can so easily drift too far to the other extreme of legalism. The third option however is the Biblical one.
Option #1....Good works or obedience cannot save us, nor do they sustain our salvation.
Option #2....Being saved however doesn't mean obedience is negated or relegated to irrelevancy.
Option #3....Being truly saved; being born again by the Spirit of God; having hearts radically changed from the selfishness of this sinful world and imbued with the loving nature of our Redeemer and Creator, means good works and obedience is inevitable.

 

[jari]

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith however must be exercised.

if we only need to believe in Jesus then how come you say we need to exercise our faith?

 

[eldon]

it is our free will to live in Christ or live in sin.

I don't know at what point Christ will leave you (Christ in you convicting you of your sin)
the Bible says "I will never leave you nor forsake you"
but if it isn't Christ, but rather God/The Holy Spirit/The repentance angel Uriel that opens your mind to real conviction/repentance/turning away from sin.. then, well, you might be SOL.


But if you fall into sin the Holy Spirit will leave you, He will also tell you He will leave you if you continue.
Oh, and you're now unsealed, which means evil spirits are able to insert thoughts into your mind.
If you entertain them then that gives them legal right to enter.

Once saved always saved is heresy IMO.
I don't think there's any way to know for sure if you don't have the Holy Spirit, which side of eternity you're going to end up on.
It is probably a natural thing to ask if you have done enough for Christ, but you should be able to get positive confirmation of where you're going.
I mean, this is something you want to be 100% sure about...

one of the ways to know for sure might be to ask God what to do.. if it starts with clean up your life you might want to get on that ASAP!
but if instead God asks you to do something for Him, then you can probably rest assured you're on the right side of eternity.


naturally, anyone reading anything on the internet needs to take it to the Lord.

 

[jari]

hi eldon. let me make couple remarks on your post...

but if it isn't Christ, but rather God/The Holy Spirit/The repentance angel Uriel that opens your mind to real conviction/repentance/turning away from sin.. then, well, you might be SOL.

repentance angel Uriel? that's not biblical at all....

where you read/heard about that?

But if you fall into sin the Holy Spirit will leave you, He will also tell you He will leave you if you continue.

where does it say that in bible?

Oh, and you're now unsealed, which means evil spirits are able to insert thoughts into your mind.

i think you may not know what seal actually means. a seal was used in letters so that the receiver of the letter knew that the letter was not opened by anyone else except the receiver of that letter. it's not a lock.. it's something that is supposed to be never be broken and if is, it's indication of mischief. once the seal is broken it cannot be made seal again.

so if you seal something the reason for that is you don't want that something ever to be opened.


God bless

 

[David777]

You have nailed it my friend. Well said. How difficult it is for us human beings to accept that there is nothing we can contribute to our salvation. Human pride is at odds with such a concept.

That is a bull's eye brakelite, it is impossible for us to accept
the free gift unless God performs the heart surgery.

Your one line above explains the existence of a thousand
religions based on personal performance to achieve the
outcome of salvation. Mankind has an incurable condition
called self justification, one observable symptom of this
fatal illness is religion.

Christianity is all about Jesus Christ and reconciliation as
a consequence of His work on the cross. Grace is never
cheap, Grace is the absolute free gift of redemption
granted to mankind. This salvation does not have
its origin in us, it is the opposite of self justification.

That is why the Gospel and the understanding of the
Gospel is so crucial to understanding God's will.

 

[Chad]

it is our free will to live in Christ or live in sin.

I don't know at what point Christ will leave you (Christ in you convicting you of your sin)
the Bible says "I will never leave you nor forsake you"
but if it isn't Christ, but rather God/The Holy Spirit/The repentance angel Uriel that opens your mind to real conviction/repentance/turning away from sin.. then, well, you might be SOL.


But if you fall into sin the Holy Spirit will leave you, He will also tell you He will leave you if you continue.
Oh, and you're now unsealed, which means evil spirits are able to insert thoughts into your mind.
If you entertain them then that gives them legal right to enter.

Once saved always saved is heresy IMO.
I don't think there's any way to know for sure if you don't have the Holy Spirit, which side of eternity you're going to end up on.
It is probably a natural thing to ask if you have done enough for Christ, but you should be able to get positive confirmation of where you're going.
I mean, this is something you want to be 100% sure about...

one of the ways to know for sure might be to ask God what to do.. if it starts with clean up your life you might want to get on that ASAP!
but if instead God asks you to do something for Him, then you can probably rest assured you're on the right side of eternity.


naturally, anyone reading anything on the internet needs to take it to the Lord.

Everything you said, you need to back it up with proper Scripture.

Who is Uriel?

But if you fall into sin the Holy Spirit will leave you, He will also tell you He will leave you if you continue.

Provide Scripture please.

 

[B-A-C]

Eldon,
Are you Anglican? It sounds like perhaps you read the Apocryphal books that are not canonized in the Bible.
I have read the books of Enoch and Tobit, but they aren't really considered books of the Bible.