An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[faithfulservant]

I am against people teaching "once saved always saved," but I have to interject something.

Even though the truth is...

1. people can fall from grace by falling into condemnation and feeling like they can't be forgiven
2. people can fall from grace by becoming ensnared in legalism
3. people can become bound by their sin again after coming to a saving knowledge of Christ

We have a responsibility to temper these truths with the fact that God is longsuffering, wishing no one should perish.

We are far less patient with our brethren. These truths must be shared with a great deal of love, and not with a rod when we are dealing with brothers and sisters, especially newborns in Christ.

 

[faithfulservant]

You can stop sinning and you had better for your eternal destiny is in question if you don't. Sin or disobedience is unbelief which is the opposite of faith. You are saved by grace through faith not sinful disobedience.

Again, you have created a very dangerous doctrine. So allow me to ask you again, when was the last time you sinned? Were you destined to hell at that moment if Jesus returned right then or you died at that moment?

You suggest these things because you chose to neglect the merciful, forgiving, and just nature of our LORD.

For the sake of anyone who wants to know the truth about sin and our walk, I will point out only one scripture which says it all:

Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This scripture says it all. When follow the simple teachings of God, we will get deeper and deeper into His Spirit. His Spirit will manifest more and more, and we won't even consider sinning.

However, if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father! (emphasis mine):

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we keep our head straight with sin, knowing it's not good for our walk with the Lord, He will supernaturally clear our sinful urges out of us as He sanctifies us with His word and His Spirit:

Romans 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

The whole point of this passage is not, as some suggest, to simply accept sin in our lives. And it is not, as it seems some others on the other extreme may suggest, that if we are not walking in His Spirit to the utmost that we are lost and hopeless.

Rather, it is simply the perspective we must maintain as Christians so we are workable for the Holy Spirit and the word of God, that They may work in our hearts and sanctify us as we grow and mature in Him.


May I suggest something in humility? We will not be perfect in these fleshly vessels, but we have access to perfection in Christ Jesus' Spirit. Additionally, we are not obligated to walk perfectly in His Spirit at all times to maintain our salvation.

Rather, we are extended grace as we grow and mature in Christ.

 

[David777]

What an interesting theology.

Does God determine an individual's election?

Is this God's Sovereign Will?

Or, are there other possibilities within the scripture?

Here is a famous quote that is used to support an individual's election.

Romans 8:29-30

King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


I view these passages as referring to the Jews as a group and not an individual. Why? Because of context and word choice.

Note: "them" in "them He also called". Them is plural not singular.

Also, the context, "them" seems strongly to refer to the Jews.

Does this mean that God does not predetermine, definitely not.

It simply in context and word choice does not provide scriptural support for determinism at the level of an individual.

Happy to hear other opinions on a very difficult subject.

 

[Miss Elly]

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation. Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence. Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour.
Please, someone please provide scripture where we would no longer be in God's graceful presence.


I believe in OSAS and I never use it for and excuse for sinful behavior! Why is it that we are always accused of that? That we can just sin all we want?

I say this with all due love and respect, I grow tired of this kind of labeling.

I have never, not once in any thread here at TJ have I seen a person who beleives in Eternal Security, that states that they now have an excuse to sin. That is an insult! What kind of Christian would we be if we felt that way about sin, we would not be one...that's what!

Btw, unless you can point it out, I see no scripture that says that, once God is in you as promised by the New Covenant, that he will leave for any reason. If you do, please provide!

I see Jesus telling Nicodemus, that "You must be Born Again"! I see no scripture that states that there is any such thing as being "un-born"! Again, if you do, please provide.

So please, all of you who are anti- OSAS, either show threads where a OSAS beleiver supports this type of behavior or stop the labeling and gossep!!

Thank You!

I grew up in a Pentecostal church where everything seemed to be a sin and God would spit you into hell if you blinked cross-eyed. I tried to be a christian because I thought I would go to hell, I would go to the altar and cry and go back out the door unchanged. When I finally found Jesus, it was so wonderful. I felt He loved me, no matter what and that the Spirit of God was leading me, not the god of this world.

I didn't go to church for a while, because I had been all my short life and it didn't do me any good. A baptist friend called me and asked me to go to church with her. I did and I felt the spirit of the Lord in the believers there. I felt secure, I felt I could serve Jesus. Naturally the pastor of the Pentecostal church was very unhappy with me and he started making remarks against my new pastor because of OSAS. All I knew was that he was attacking a man of God, I don't claim to understand who is right or wrong in this "doctrine". So I said, well pastor, maybe Bro. xxxxxxx plans to live for God all of his life so he is eternally secure. That shut him up for a while. While I love my old pastor, these people need to be able to discern the spirit of God in other christians and quit attacking them because they have different beliefs than they do. Discern christians, discern in the spirit of the Lord. Looking back when I turned my life over to Jesus, I unconditionally surrendered and I know I am secure in my salvation. A few times in my journey, I was afar from God and I knew I was sinning. But the Lord did not let go of me so quickly. Thankfully his mercy brought me back to repentance and restored me. However, I never felt like I did before I found Jesus, just lost with no hope. So glad that God doesn't give up on us when people do. God made the supreme sacrifice when He sent Jesus. Doesn't it make sense then, that once you are truly made a son into God's kingdom, that the Lord will do everything He can to make sure you make it into heaven. He never gives up on us. All that said, I know there was a Judas and I know that he must have made some type of committment to God. I don't believe he went to heaven. But I also don't believe he was a wicked rank sinner when he started following Jesus. So glad that God knows how to sort all of this out.

 

[faithfulservant]

I would also like to add one more thing:

In the Parable of the Sower, Jesus makes it very clear that some people will yield more of a harvest than others:

The seeds that were "good" seeds, or those whom were saved by the Lord, did not yield the same harvest of grain:

Matthew 13:8
8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

 

[faithfulservant]

So glad that God knows how to sort all of this out.

amen!

Your testimony is difficult to hear, churches forget the most important thing: Love. Without love, we are nothing but a noisy gong to the LORD.

 

[David777]

Dear Miss Elly

You said,

I grew up in a Pentecostal church where everything seemed to be a sin and God would spit you into hell if you blinked cross-eyed. I tried to be a christian because I thought I would go to hell, I would go to the altar and cry and go back out the door unchanged. When I finally found Jesus, it was so wonderful. I felt He loved me, no matter what and that the Spirit of God was leading me, not the god of this world.

Did you find Jesus while attending the Pentecostal Church?

 

[gdemoss]

Again, you have created a very dangerous doctrine. So allow me to ask you again, when was the last time you sinned? Were you destined to hell at that moment if Jesus returned right then or you died at that moment?

You have missed most of the things that I have said concerning this. You have not understood much of anything that I have shared as you always come back and say that I am saying something that I am not. There are many places that I have spoken previously about the possibility of sin being in a believers life and you disregard them because I state that you need to stop sinning.

Once more, just for you. There is a judgement coming. You will be judged by your works. You must have a proper testimony of Christ and your works must match that testimony in order to receive eternal life. We will all be judged by the Word of God. Those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, honor and immortality, eternal life. Those who are contentious and obey not the truth, indignation and wrath. There will be those who receive eternal life who have had difficulty with sin in their lives as believers but their will also be those who are exposed for their licentiousness who should have heeded the warning about stopping their sin. There are those too who are deceived about what sin is exactly and think they are doing it everyday when in fact they are not. These are the worst kind of all as they push diligently for the doctrine of grace without true faith that is established by works.

Jesus isn't coming back because everything is getting better in the church. He is coming back because the church has run its course and has become nearly useless with false doctrine causing people to believe that there is no rush to become righteous. Telling them they can't become like Jesus in this life. That is more than dangerous doctrine, it is doctrine that will send you to hell. You can and should walk like Jesus walked every day of your life. And as John said, in his hypothetical situation, IF any sin we have an advocate. Not WHEN. Please don't lure people down the path to the pit by telling them they can't stop sinning. Why do you miss the point that even Cain was told he could rule over sin and he didn't even have the Holy Spirit to help?

I can plead all day long and it will still fall upon deaf ears.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

I would also like to add one more thing:

The Parable of the Sower, Jesus makes it very clear that some people will yield more of a harvest than others:

The seeds that were "good" seeds, or those whom were saved by the Lord, did not yield the same harvest of grain:

Matthew 13:8
8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

Seriously? Good seeds? The seeds were all good as they were the word of god. The soils were different.

 

[faithfulservant]

Seriously? Good seeds? The seeds were all good as they were the word of god. The soils were different.

For the sake of truth:


Matthew 13
24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,

27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

 

[David777]

Yo.

1 Corinthians 1:30

New King James Version (NKJV)

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

Interesting line is it not, notice righteousness and sanctification.

 

[faithfulservant]

1 Corinthians 1:30

New King James Version (NKJV)

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

Interesting line is it not, notice righteousness and sanctification.

Yes, there are two very clear doctrines within the New Testament:

• Justification: This is a gift of God, it's the very righteousness of our Lord Jesus, we wear His righteousness like a robe.
• Sanctification: The supernatural transformation of God's children though the washing of His Word and the working of the Holy Spirit in our heart.

 

[David777]

Hello.

Now that sounds more like it.

The emphasis back on to Jesus Christ.

 

[faithfulservant]

Amen, David.

You have to know, I did not come to the truth about falling away lightly. I prayed for over a year and studied His Word diligently. He is always faithful when our heart is trained upon Him and open to His truth.

The LORD led my wife and I to start a street ministry a few years back not long after I was born again and baptized with His Holy Spirit.

We feed homeless people, give out Bibles, pray with people, and witness to God's saving power through His Son Jesus Christ.

You don't know how many souls I've come across since then that have obviously fallen away. It's not something that happens easily, God chastens those He loves in order to keep them on the right path.

However, make no mistake, I've met many, many lost souls who formerly loved the LORD and now have absolutely nothing to do with Him. Some actively hate His ways, choosing their own ways. Others know they're off track, but are simply apathetic to the whole thing.

Still others, like the coin fallen behind the table, are drawn back out by the Holy Spirit as He uses me as a broom to whisk them back to God. It's beautiful, it's where God's heart is. He doesn't want any to wander away from Him. But the warnings are there for a reason, and we cannot ignore them.

 

[gdemoss]

For the sake of truth:


Matthew 13
24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,

27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

For the sake of rightly dividing the word of truth:

You quote from the parable of the sower, where the seed is the word of God sewn into different soil conditions and the soils are the hearts of men, and you call them people good seeds and bad seeds. Then when I ask about it, you turn around and quote a completely different parable, one of the tares and the wheat, to talk about good and bad seed. When you first posted your "for the sake of the truth" post, I genuinely thought I might have misspoke and remembered it incorrectly and prepared myself to repent.


Justification: The act of God imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ, his own righteousness, upon those who believe and obey the gospel.

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[David777]

All is not what it seems.

Pentecostal churches get a serve from time to time.

In some cases the criticism is justified.

I have been to three different Pentecostal Churches.

All packed to the rafters with riff raff.

Ex alcoholics, ex drug addicts, ex prisoners , etc, etc.

Where are these people going to go to church?

I would like to know the answer?

Certainly not to a Presbyterian church, are they now.

Be very careful in your appraisal of the Pentecostal churches.

They are as varied as the colors in a rainbow.

Nor, do they all follow the dictates of the denomination they exist within.

It is impossible to pigeon hole the whole movement.

 

[David777]

1 Corinthians 1:30

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

By GraceAlone,

Sanctification: The supernatural transformation of God's children though the washing of His Word and the working of the Holy Spirit in our heart.

gdemoss offered,

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

Can anyone spot the difference between these two different versions of the process of sanctification?

Please collate your answer to 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[faithfulservant]

For the sake of rightly dividing the word of truth:

You quote from the parable of the sower, where the seed is the word of God sewn into different soil conditions and the soils are the hearts of men, and you call them people good seeds and bad seeds. Then when I ask about it, you turn around and quote a completely different parable, one of the tares and the wheat, to talk about good and bad seed. When you first posted your "for the sake of the truth" post, I genuinely thought I might have misspoke and remembered it incorrectly and prepared myself to repent.


Justification: The act of God imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ, his own righteousness, upon those who believe and obey the gospel.

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Gary, you scoffed at my reference to seeds being people as if that was no such thing. You were wrong.

If I have been fallible, it is only because I'm just a moron in Christ. His Spirit guides me and empowers me to do a number of ministries which touch the hearts of many, many people. It isn't me, I'm less than nothing. The proof is in the power, and not in what I know or what I say.

In fact, from what I can discern in the scriptures, God would rather someone erred in doctrine than to wield wisdom without love, humility, and mercy.

That does not mean I feel you have a lot of wisdom. I feel you have a lot of warped doctrines you have created by not listening in to the Holy Spirit of God, but listening to your flesh or some other deceitful spirit.

You reference God as a "destroyer" and not as a "saver." That's a fundamental misconception of God. And you know I'm someone who readily recognize the truth about falling away! So perhaps you might listen to me? Perhaps God sent me to this forum to show you something? God will not force His way into anyone's radar screen if they are bent on pursuing their own doctrine.

When we pursue doctrine without acknowledging the "weightier" things such as mercy, love, and humility, and faithfulness, we end up puffed up with pride, ready to judge unrighteously, in grave error.

If you don't receive these messages, so be it. I won't bother anymore. It's not on my head.

 

[gdemoss]

1 Corinthians 1:30

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

By GraceAlone,

Sanctification: The supernatural transformation of God's children though the washing of His Word and the working of the Holy Spirit in our heart.

gdemoss offered,

Sanctification: A cleansing process of the soul of a man through the power of God offering his word and his spirit through faith operation where a man surrenders himself to the process by dying to self, wholly bringing the man into fellowship with the Father as his son.

Can anyone spot the difference between these two different versions of the process of sanctification?

Please collate your answer to 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Jesus became all these things for us that the law did not provide. We are responsible for putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. While God has his part in all things, he has always given man his own duty to follow instruction even if it was completely by using the things God has provided for him to use. God gave Jesus to us as a King and for all those who receive him as such he gave power to become the sons of God. The word of God does a work of sanctification within us if we put it in front of ourselves and obey what we read. There is work involved on our part in the process of sanctification.

Sanctification is spoken of at length in the New Testament in many various verses and cannot simply be seen or understood in light of 1 single verse.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[David777]

Hello gdemoss.

What does this scripture mean?

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—