A lack of choice?

[B-A-C]

The first incidence of your dishonesty resides in your saying "So just because Jesus chooses you, is no guarantee you won't betray Him. You still have the ability and choice to do so." flat out calls Jesus a liar because Christ promises me "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). I, a sheep owned by the Good Shepherd (John 10:27 and (John 10:14), reject your saying, @B-A-C!

Fair enough.. you are coming in very late to the game. I reject OSAS, and several threads over the last 2 decades have been about this.
I'm not ready to get into all of that right now. But perhaps another time. Curtis and KingJ and it seems just about everyone else has been a part of these discussions. The good news is.. that while they may not agree with you on free-will, they do agree with you on OSAS.

I never intended for a free will thread to turn into an OSAS thread.. - but perhaps its inevitable. In any case.. have a good evening.

For some "light" reading - here is about 17 pages of a thread on this...

Thread 'The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief'

Jun 4, 2025

One can go down two paths with a non-OSAS belief. One is fine, the other is not.

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

I am an OSAS believer. The church I attend teaches non-OSAS. But they preach it in a way that does not incriminate God. After much debate and discussion with church elders, studying of scripture and meditating on the topic. The following are my thoughts. For discussion purposes I am going to try to keep it as simple and as clear as possible.

The right path - You do not attempt to 'play God'.

If someone asks you if person A or B are saved and going to heaven, you...

• KingJ
• Replies: 352
• Forum: Bible Study

If that's not enough.. here is more.

Thread 'OSAS - debate # 2,134,567'

Oct 4, 2011

Part 1
Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today.
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that...

• B-A-C
• Replies: 126
• Forum: Bible Study

• 

 

[KingJ]

In effect, you excluded yourself from being a part of the whole world in the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John's "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19); therefore, you agree that the word "world" in Holy Scripture does not mean all people everywhere on the whole Earth in all instances.

The whole world exclusively includes future believers in Christ as used by John the Apostle in "He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

This is Calvinism. They and you I guess do not care to even bastardise John 3:16 into 'Jesus only dying for specially selected Christians'.

This is both an EXTREME reading blunder and a GROSS misrepresentation of scripture.

Judgement day with God will NOT GO WELL for such people and you all need to take swimming lessons in my honest opinion.

Matt 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Partiality by a Creator is PURE evil. But for some reason clear working minds do just not care. It seems either ears are not working or you and them do not care that you misrepresent God.

 

[KingJ]

Hello KingJ,

God caused me to provide you with a description of my belief in post #53. If you do not understand post #53, then that is between you and God.

If you teach us about an EVIL God, then it is not my God talking to you. It is either yourself or the devil.

I am a Christian because I believe in Christ.

Well clearly not. If you do not know love you do not know God as God is love 1 John 4:8. God would never be partial.

-----------

I am not going to reply to the rest of your drivel. I just can't be bothered talking to an elusive and intellectually dishonest person who will not state that partiality is evil and not possible by a good God.

It is bad enough trying discuss with a Calvinist and now you present yourself as one but do not want to be known as one.

 

[Kermos]

*EDIT



You are making contradictory statements here. Surely you can see that?

You state that God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice.

How can you love justice if you are partial?

Hello KingJ,

You ask "How can you love justice if you are partial?"

Your question is based upon your presupposition instead of the Word of God for God is the impartial judge who metes out justice - "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

God's choice is impartial and just for God knows beforehand who among men are justified according to God (Romans 8:28-30), after all, Almighty God is the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11 who loves justice (Isaiah 61:8)!

Only a person who disbelieves Romans 8:28-30 and Psalm 7:11 and Isaiah 61:8 would believe God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice are making contradictory statements.

You seem to have a problem with God being the omniscient good impartial judge.

You continue, up to your post quoted above, to fail to address your error in your words "Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe" without any supporting documentation; in fact, your definition is false because foreknowledge means "to know beforehand, i.e. foresee" (Strong's 4268 on BibleHub.com from Strong's Greek: 4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) on BibleHub.com) also relevant is the definition "Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence" (The Free Dictionary foreknowledge definition). You added a non-existent definition appendage to foreknowledge of "who would freely choose to believe", so your definition is not honest (proof post #62).

You publicly issued your "Like" of @B-A-C's opening statement for his opening post to this thread of "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), yet both of you have been dishonest (proof post #62).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER! PRAISE THE SON! PRAISE THE SPIRIT! PRAISE THE ONE TRUE HOLY HOLY HOLY GOD!!!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Garee]

This is Calvinism. They and you I guess do not care to even bastardise John 3:16 into 'Jesus only dying for specially selected Christians'.

This is both an EXTREME reading blunder and a GROSS misrepresentation of scripture.

The key to understanding that we are not saved by self-righteousness electing oneself to salvation Like Aarons two sons when they added what is called strange fire (adding to sola scriptura) as in we did it. . . it proves it . They were consumed out of sight out of mind, their ceremonial clothing as a sign to the unbelieving world. Not a hint of smoke

The key is the phrase used in parables "as many as"

"As many as" used many times old as well as new

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Exodus 35:22 And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the Lord

Pickles . . As many as in the first barrel not all the barrels100. he leaves the 99 in search of the elect

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

 

[KingJ]

Hello KingJ,

You ask "How can you love justice if you are partial?"

Your question is based upon your presupposition instead of the Word of God for God is the impartial judge who metes out justice - "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

God's choice is impartial and just for God knows beforehand who among men are justified according to God (Romans 8:28-30), after all, Almighty God is the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11 who loves justice (Isaiah 61:8)!

You are teaching that God is both exceptionally EVIL and exceptional JUST at the same time. Surely you can step back and grasp the insanity?

God is ONLY good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Only a person who disbelieves Romans 8:28-30 and Psalm 7:11 and Isaiah 61:8 would believe God knows beforehand and then state that He loves justice are making contradictory statements.

You seem to have a problem with God being the omniscient good impartial judge.

You continue, up to your post quoted above, to fail to address your error in your words "Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe" without any supporting documentation; in fact, your definition is false because foreknowledge means "to know beforehand, i.e. foresee"

This made me laugh.

YOU ARE WRONG!!! KINGJ - you wrote '''Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance'' but it actually means ''to know beforehand, i.e. foresee''.



I will clarify. Please read carefully and try not to trip yourself up.

It is possible for God to both foreknow and predestine without being evil. Only if both are arbitrary. IE Foreknowing who would freely choose Him. Predestining the 'whomsoever' would choose Him to be reconciled with Him in Christ

Grasping this perspective blows our little minds though. It is easier to believe and teach that God limits His omniscience in order to uphold being good. But, either belief is fine. It is just very important to insert 'true free will' statements and explain that God is as good as He is great, when going with the first.

What is clear error and false is your Calvinistic perspective that suggest both words, foreknowledge and predestination are non arbitrary. You twist the words ''all'' and ''world'' to mean only specially selected Christians and accuse those who don't of dishonesty.

Now for the last time. Explain either how:

A. Non arbitrary predestination is not partiality or
B. How partiality is not evil.

I will grab some popcorn, as you have dodged this for a while now.

 

[Kermos]

Do you think it's interestiing that God hardened Pharaoh's heart over and over again...

Exod 3:20 "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.

...but in the end...Pharaoh still let them go.

Before Exod 7:3, we see verses like...

Exod 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

First, I would say this is a future tense verse.. not "I already have hardened".. but rather "in the future, I will harden"...
But we have a conflict between 3:20 and 4:21... one says "he will let you go" the other says "so that he will not let you go".
So then which is it? If God kept hardening Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let the Jews go... why did he eventually let them go?

Exod 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Let My people go that they may celebrate a feast to Me in the wilderness.'"
Exod 5:2 But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go."

No mention of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in this conversation. But yet Pharaoh already had his mind made up before God hardened his heart. But we eventually get to..

Exod 7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

But this certainly after Pharaoh refused to let the Jews go.. back in chapter 5, so which happened first?
Even so.. "I will" (at sometime in the future).. is the not the same things as "I already have".

Exod 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is stubborn; he refuses to let the people go.

We could possibly take Exod 7:3 and apply it to Exod 7:13... but the problem is... It doesn't specifically say God hardened Pharaoh's heart in 7:13. That would we adding speculation to scripture.. extrapolation.

Exod 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

We are back to Pharaoh hardened his own heart here. Not God.. in fact we have no verse that specifically says God hardened Pharaoh's heart yet.

Exod 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exod 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

Once again.. Pharaoh did it.. not God.

Exod 9:7 Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Again.. no mention that God did this. But finally...

Exod 9:12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

This is the first scripture that specifically says God hardened Pharaohs heart in chronological context.

Hello B-A-C,

You wrote "but in the end...Pharaoh still let them go" which is a prophecy by YHWH who knows beforehand for it is written "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go" (Exodus 3:20). Hey, you quoted Exodus 3:20 in your post! After 10 plagues, Pharaoh let the people go (Exodus 12:30-32), but, even after letting the people go, Pharaoh attempted to not let the people go (Exodus 14:5-9) which leads to a second prophecy issued by the Lord God Almighty as recorded in Exodus 4:21, but this is for the next paragraph.

After Exodus 3:20 chronologically comes Exodus 4:21, which you quoted, and here is the passage about which you wrote "First, I would say this is a future tense verse":

​

The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.​

(Exodus 4:21)​

​

and the God Who knows all things, even beforehand things which will unavoidably come to pass, reveals about the future of Pharaoh's attempt to not let the people go (Exodus 14:5-9); therefore, when you wrote of that which you think of as a conflict between 3:20 and 4:21... one says "he will let you go" the other says "so that he will not let you go", then you show dishonesty because both are true with the earlier verse Exodus 3:20 being in line with the final state of Exodus 14:5-9 which includes the decimation of Pharaoh's army which God used to deliver Israel recorded in (Exodus 14:28), so Pharaoh did not let the people go in the end because Pharaoh attempted to not let the people go.

After Exodus 3:20 and later after Exodus 4:21 chronologically comes:

​

And afterward Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Let My people go that they may celebrate a feast to Me in the wilderness.’” But Pharaoh said, “Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go.”​

(Exodus 5:1-2)[/​

​

That is another passage you quoted about which you scribed "No mention of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in this conversation" which is less than honest because Moses and Aaron are following God's commands (see Exodus 4:21 and around) which are a part of this conversation.

Continuing, your dishonest writing of

​

We could possibly take Exod 7:3 and apply it to Exod 7:13... but the problem is... It doesn't specifically say God hardened Pharaoh's heart in 7:13. That would we adding speculation to scripture.. extrapolation.​

​

is proven to be dishonest because of

​

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7:3 (NASB1995))​

​

Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

(Exodus 7:13 (NASB1995))​

​

See, the interpolation of the Word of God "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart" (Exodus 7:3) with "Pharaoh’s heart was hardened"
(Exodus 7:13) which ties right back to "as the LORD had said
(Exodus 7:13) as recorded with the Word of God "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart" (Exodus 7:3); therefore, you are not honest.

Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 7:3 record the only Word of God mentioning that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened prior to the record in Exodus 7:13, and both Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 7:3 record exclusive attribution to God for hardening Pharaoh's heart, and no Word of God recorded chronologically prior to Exodus 7:13 attributes the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart to Pharaoh.

Your declaration "Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" (proof post #27) in reference to Exodus 8:15 is not honest because the historical record shows God initially hardened Pharaoh’s heart (see
Exodus 7:3 with Exodus 7:13 quoted above).

Your concluding paragraph "This is the first scripture that specifically says God hardened Pharaohs heart in chronological context" respecting Exodus 9:12 dishonestly omitted Exodus 7:3 with Exodus 7:13 (quoted above).

You opened this thread by indicating that you want to have "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), but you show yourself to be repeatedly dishonest.

No Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, so free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Garee]

Hello B-A-C,

You wrote "but in the end...Pharaoh still let them go" which is a prophecy by YHWH who knows beforehand for it is written "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go" (Exodus 3:20). Hey, you quoted Exodus 3:20 in your post! After 10 plagues, Pharaoh let the people go (Exodus 12:30-32), but, even after letting the people go, Pharaoh attempted to not let the people go (Exodus 14:5-9) which leads to a second prophecy issued by the Lord God Almighty as recorded in Exodus 4:21, but this is for the next paragraph.

After Exodus 3:20 chronologically comes Exodus 4:21, which you quoted, and here is the passage about which you wrote "First, I would say this is a future tense verse":

​

The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.​

(Exodus 4:21)​

​

and the God Who knows all things, even beforehand things which will unavoidably come to pass, reveals about the future of Pharaoh's attempt to not let the people go (Exodus 14:5-9); therefore, when you wrote of that which you think of as a conflict between 3:20 and 4:21... one says "he will let you go" the other says "so that he will not let you go", then you show dishonesty because both are true with the earlier verse Exodus 3:20 being in line with the final state of Exodus 14:5-9 which includes the decimation of Pharaoh's army which God used to deliver Israel recorded in (Exodus 14:28), so Pharaoh did not let the people go in the end because Pharaoh attempted to not let the people go.

After Exodus 3:20 and later after Exodus 4:21 chronologically comes:

​

And afterward Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Let My people go that they may celebrate a feast to Me in the wilderness.’” But Pharaoh said, “Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go.”​

(Exodus 5:1-2)[/​

​

That is another passage you quoted about which you scribed "No mention of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in this conversation" which is less than honest because Moses and Aaron are following God's commands (see Exodus 4:21 and around) which are a part of this conversation.

Continuing, your dishonest writing of

​

We could possibly take Exod 7:3 and apply it to Exod 7:13... but the problem is... It doesn't specifically say God hardened Pharaoh's heart in 7:13. That would we adding speculation to scripture.. extrapolation.​

​

is proven to be dishonest because of

​

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7:3 (NASB1995))​

​

Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

(Exodus 7:13 (NASB1995))​

​

See, the interpolation of the Word of God "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart" (Exodus 7:3) with "Pharaoh’s heart was hardened"
(Exodus 7:13) which ties right back to "as the LORD had said
(Exodus 7:13) as recorded with the Word of God "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart" (Exodus 7:3); therefore, you are not honest.

Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 7:3 record the only Word of God mentioning that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened prior to the record in Exodus 7:13, and both Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 7:3 record exclusive attribution to God for hardening Pharaoh's heart, and no Word of God recorded chronologically prior to Exodus 7:13 attributes the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart to Pharaoh.

Your declaration "Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" (proof post #27) in reference to Exodus 8:15 is not honest because the historical record shows God initially hardened Pharaoh’s heart (see
Exodus 7:3 with Exodus 7:13 quoted above).

Your concluding paragraph "This is the first scripture that specifically says God hardened Pharaohs heart in chronological context" respecting Exodus 9:12 dishonestly omitted Exodus 7:3 with Exodus 7:13 (quoted above).

You opened this thread by indicating that you want to have "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27), but you show yourself to be repeatedly dishonest.

No Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, so free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Love,
Kermos

Yes, the hardening of the heart is a continuation.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Hello Kermos. Welcome to the UFC, TàlķJesus style? Being ìñ àtteñdance with Baptists some here still think mè to be a Hýpèr‐Çàĺvinist. Christian bigotry can be ďeep rooted.

 

[Kermos]

The matter of predestination is is easily discerned. Choice is çhò is a product of of both sides, Befoŕè Goď creàteď, He looked ďown through time àñď xàw mè tákè the Ruàh anď chose tò honor mý choice. We both exeŕcised free will in the màttèr.

Hello Bill Taylor,

As previously proclaimed in this thread (proof post #53), we Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

We confess our Deliverer Jesus who delivers us from the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:1-6) and we contribute nothing to this delivery (Ephesians 2:8-10) and this confession is fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Since no Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, then that only leaves free-will philosophy to be a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Curtis]

Since no Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, then that only leaves free-will philosophy to be a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Man has free will to choose, but God provides man with the choices.

 

[Kermos]

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

I guess the demons are saved?

Hello B-A-C,

Only a fool would believe the demons are saved from the wrath of God, @B-A-C. You free-willians tend to embed your beliefs in your questions. I do not believe demons are saved.

Look at you, @B-A-C, how you just deleted the Word of God from the post to which you replied as shown in the following that Lord Jesus Christ lovingly caused me to post:

​

I believe, as detailed in post #53, man's salvation is conditional solely based upon God's choice. The Truth (John 14:6) is “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).​

​

You free-willians have a terrible time maintaining context.

Love,
Kermos

 

[Garee]

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Man has free will to choose, but God provides man with the choices.

I would offer.

God designs and creates wills. The "Let there be" willer of wills.

Dying mankind in bondage to the will of (nether shall you touch) . . .false prophecy

Men dead as a door nail in trespass and sin. They have no power as faith of their own. therefore, in need the invisible food of the Spirit to both (the key both) #1 hear and understand the will and (#2) given the power of another to do it the good pleasure of the invisible Holy Father.

The unseen food of Christ's Faithful, Creative. . "let there be" will strength that the other apostles knew not of.

John 4:33-34;Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?;Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Philippians 2:13For it is (a living) God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.;Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus the Son of man yoked with Christ did the will of the Holy Father to the good pleasure of Jehovah with delight .

Others like racist Jonah was dragged all the way wanted to die because of the sin of racism. Revealing God is not served by dead wills of dying mankind.

Gives believers a better promise of grace powerful things that are included in salvation. miraculously born-again believers can offer our good works. Yoked with Jehovah .

The unconverted have no power coming from the "let there be" will of the Holy Father.

Hebrew 6:9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.;For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[B-A-C]

So then.. when you sin... does God "make" you sin? Does He force you to sin?
I mean.. if we have no choice.. no say in the matter... then we are effectively forced to sin.

You say that God chooses some people to be saved. That in effect is also saying He chooses
some people to go to the Lake of Fire. They had no choice.. they had no say in the matter.
Nothing they did (or didn't do) had any effect on the outcome.

 

[Curtis]

God is in total control over man’s choices in which he can make. Man is in control of what he chooses of which God has provided him.

Man can not choose what is outside of Gods choices he hath provided man.

 

[KingJ]

God is in total control over man’s choices in which he can make. Man is in control of what he chooses of which God has provided him.

Man can not choose what is outside of Gods choices he hath provided man.

I have heard this wording of 'free choice' before. I am just waiting for you to stop the build and give your conclusion.

The others that push 'free choice' concede to 'true free will' being an illusion. You and them cloud this truth with the word 'free choice'.

It is deceitful wording. Do you believe we have true free will? Yes or No?

 

[Garee]

So then.. when you sin... does God "make" you sin? Does He force you to sin?
I mean.. if we have no choice.. no say in the matter... then we are effectively forced to sin.

You say that God chooses some people to be saved. That in effect is also saying He chooses
some people to go to the Lake of Fire. They had no choice.. they had no say in the matter.
Nothing they did (or didn't do) had any effect on the outcome.

God does not. According to the letter of the law death if you do you are deader than a door nail. He chose to do the will of another spirit Lucifer the father of lies

 

[Kermos]

And here I thought posts #72 and #73 were in response to #27 all along.



Matt 26:49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him.
Matt 26:50 And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.

Matt 22:11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
Matt 22:12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.
Matt 22:13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Hello, again, @B-A-C,

Look, you bring forth some honesty! In reply to the question, "Do you think that Jesus Christ calls you friend" with the loving Word of God directly adjacent of "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16), you answered with the Word of God recorded in Matthew 26:50 and Matthew 22:12 (both using the same Greek word Strong's Greek: 2083. ἑταῖρος (hetairos) -- Companion, friend, comrade) which references a word for imposter friend or wolf in sheep's clothing as used by Lord Jesus Christ in other words you applied the concept of "a false friend of Jesus" to yourself. For your edification the word for friend that Jesus used in John 15:15-16 (using the Greek word Strong's Greek: 5384. φίλος (philos) -- Friend) carries the concept of dear friend and neighbor as used by Lord Jesus Christ.

You have a terrible time with chronological sequence (see also your chronological failure regarding the Exodus recorded in post #27) because God caused me to respond to @KingJ's post #70 which precedes your post #72 and post #73. Any post that you want to get my attention must explicitly tag or quote me or your post doesn't count.

Love,
Kermos

 

[Curtis]

Even though God gives to man the choices he can make but he does not make those choices for him. The Lord God does give man a strong recommendation of what he should choose.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Therefore choose life…….

 

[Bill Taylor]

Hello Bill Taylor,

As previously proclaimed in this thread (proof post #53), we Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

We confess our Deliverer Jesus who delivers us from the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:1-6) and we contribute nothing to this delivery (Ephesians 2:8-10) and this confession is fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Since no Word of God declares that man was imparted a free-will, then that only leaves free-will philosophy to be a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

Love,
Kermos

Thàt, Ì must confess, is Hýpèr-Çalvanism. The letters from Yahweh àrè one continuous set of ìnstruction foŕ life. No scripture, group of scripture, nor passage of scripture can be correctly understood without the light of all scripture.