144,000

[The Gospel of Christ]

You’re confusing sequence with separation. “Meta tauta” just means John saw the next part of the vision — not a totally different group of people. Revelation isn’t a newspaper or a Scofield chart; it’s a prophetic vision full of symbols. John hears the number 144,000 — a symbolic picture of the full covenant people of God — and then sees what that actually looks like: a great multitude from every nation, tribe, and tongue standing before the throne. That’s not a second group — that’s the same group, revealed in fullness. This is classic prophetic style — hearing one thing, seeing another that reveals its true meaning. In Revelation 5, John hears that the Lion of Judah has conquered, but when he looks, he sees a slain Lamb. The same thing happens here: he hears 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, but then sees the reality — a redeemed, global Church. You’re treating apocalyptic vision like it’s a courtroom transcript, as if a scene change means new characters. It doesn’t. Trying to split these groups apart just to prop up dispensational theology completely misses the point: this is about fulfillment in Christ, not a divided future between Jews and Gentiles.

Dispensationalists always do this. They chop up the text, isolate the symbols, and force Revelation into a rigid, man-made chart — as if God were writing 'Left Behind', Hollywood fairytales. They miss the prophetic language, the covenant fulfillment, the Christ-centered climax of the entire book. Every time they see the word “Israel,” they slam on the brakes and throw the Gospel out the window, pretending the Church is some last-minute detour instead of the very goal of redemptive history.

They turn apocalyptic poetry into a travel itinerary and then act shocked when none of it lands.

 

[Garee]

Says who?

One can "spiritualize" anything in the Bible into meaningless dust.

As an example, one might say the crucifixion was not a literal historical event, but merely a spiritual construct reflecting the struggle of the individual against oppressive governmental regimes.

(and so it goes).

Rhema

What does spiritualize mean to you? Does it mean look to the spiritual understanding?

What is the spiritual understanding of the crucifixion the literal historical event?

 

[Garee]

You’re confusing sequence with separation. “Meta tauta” just means John saw the next part of the vision — not a totally different group of people. Revelation isn’t a newspaper or a Scofield chart; it’s a prophetic vision full of symbols. John hears the number 144,000 — a symbolic picture of the full covenant people of God — and then sees what that actually looks like: a great multitude from every nation, tribe, and tongue standing before the throne. That’s not a second group — that’s the same group, revealed in fullness. This is classic prophetic style — hearing one thing, seeing another that reveals its true meaning. In Revelation 5, John hears that the Lion of Judah has conquered, but when he looks, he sees a slain Lamb. The same thing happens here: he hears 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, but then sees the reality — a redeemed, global Church. You’re treating apocalyptic vision like it’s a courtroom transcript, as if a scene change means new characters. It doesn’t. Trying to split these groups apart just to prop up dispensational theology completely misses the point: this is about fulfillment in Christ, not a divided future between Jews and Gentiles.

Dispensationalists always do this. They chop up the text, isolate the symbols, and force Revelation into a rigid, man-made chart — as if God were writing 'Left Behind', Hollywood fairytales. They miss the prophetic language, the covenant fulfillment, the Christ-centered climax of the entire book. Every time they see the word “Israel,” they slam on the brakes and throw the Gospel out the window, pretending the Church is some last-minute detour instead of the very goal of redemptive history.

They turn apocalyptic poetry into a travel itinerary and then act shocked when none of it lands.

Amen.

It would seem some love to seek after signs to wonder after as if true prophecy. (sola scriptura)

Jesus said its natural unconverted mankind that does seek after a sign. before they will believe the Father.in heaven. No sign not even one was given to wonder after as if true prophecy

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark,(not sign) or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Some look for a sign on their hand or forehead, two metaphors used in a parable to indicate the will of man.

They refuse to distinguish the difference between two words sign and mark. Making the mark into a false need for surviving buying and selling worldly goods. Rather than the gospel which we are to buy and not sell.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Twice in Revelation the word sign is used. Mark eight times.

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy would make both words one in the same as sign and not a mark .

 

[B-A-C]

Well that certainly wouldn't be people on earth evangelizing others.

I tend to agree. But for sake of argument (what else do we do) why not?

Isa 10:20 Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 10:21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.
Isa 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
Isa 10:23 For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord GOD of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land.
Isa 10:24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "O My people who dwell in Zion, do not fear the Assyrian who strikes you with the rod and lifts up his staff against you, the way Egypt did.
Isa 10:25 "For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to their destruction.

Joe 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
Joe 2:29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Joe 2:30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
Joe 2:31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
Joe 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

 

[B-A-C]

Let’s stop dividing God’s plan into two peoples.

Why? The Bible does.

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

 

[B-A-C]

Please be the first person to ever show Scripture that identifies these as "evangelists."

The word "evangelists" (with an s at the end, is not in my Bible at all). The word evangelist in only used 3 times.
But to answer your question, no there is no direct scripture that says that. The closest I can get is...

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Rev 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

The argument by some (not me) is.. is the angel (the first of 3 angels mentioned here) an actual angel that goes around evangelizing to people. Or is the angel a spiritual presence that goes with the 144,000 while they have "an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth".
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this.. but if you look at the letters written to the 7 churches of Asia ( Rev 2 and 3 ). They were actually written to the "angel" of (each individual) church. Were the letters actually written to angels, or to "spiritual presence" within the church?

 

[B-A-C]

Isa 11:10 Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.
Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning the shepherds who are tending My people: "You have scattered My flock and driven them away, and have not attended to them; behold, I am about to attend to you for the evil of your deeds," declares the LORD.
Jer 23:3 "Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply.
Jer 23:4 "I will also raise up shepherds over them and they will tend them; and they will not be afraid any longer, nor be terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD.
Jer 23:5 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land.

Eze 6:8 "However, I will leave a remnant, for you will have those who escaped the sword among the nations when you are scattered among the countries.
Eze 6:9 "Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations.

Mic 2:12 "I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men.
Mic 2:13 "The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the LORD at their head."

Joe 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Isa 10:20 Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 10:21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.
Isa 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Too much anti-semitism is allow on this website.

 

[B-A-C]

One of the most mis-interpreted verses in the Bible.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

This passage is NOT saying there are no men or women, or slaves or free, or JEWS or Greeks (Gentiles) obviously all these things still exist.
Unless you're a woke liberal who doesn't believe in Genders (but then you you definitely have to say there is more than one race).
What it is saying is... it doesn't matter which of these things you are... you are all equally saved in Christ.

 

[Indentured Servant]

there is no direct scripture that says that

I appreciate your response.

I, too, know there is nothing in Scripture that indicates the 144,000 will evangelize.

It has been taught for decades, but no one knows why they believe it, other than "because my preacher says so."

 

[Rhema]

The word "evangelists" (with an s at the end, is not in my Bible at all).

!!??

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;​

- Ephesians 4:11 KJV

Plural, with an "s" and everything.

Are you on vacation or something
Or do I need to get you a better Bible?
(I mean, I will...)

Surprised,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I tend to agree. But for sake of argument (what else do we do) why not?

Isa 10:20

Why refer to a prophecy that was completed nearly 2,000 years ago?

Joe 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

Again, a completed prophecy -

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:​

- Acts 2:16-17 KJV

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—

How is this even remotely connected to these (fictitious) 144,000?

So for the sake of argument, what's your point here?

 

[Rhema]

Let’s stop dividing God’s plan into two peoples.

Why? The Bible does.

Hmmm... I don't think anyone would dispute that there are two peoples, Jew and Gentile (prior to salvation).

So I would say that GOC may have meant to write, "Let's stop dividing God's people into two plans."

But maybe not.

 

[Rhema]

This passage is NOT saying there are no men or women, or slaves or free, or JEWS or Greeks (Gentiles) obviously all these things still exist.

No, but it is saying that there is to be no differentiation between men or women, or slaves or free, or JEWS or Greeks (Gentiles) in the body of Christ, else we become respecters of persons.

(but then you you definitely have to say there is more than one race).

@B-A-C, were you aware that the Jews convinced the Romans that they were a second race, which is why the Romans allowed them to worship their God and not the gods of Rome?

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Why? The Bible does.

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

You’re quoting Romans 11 like it proves God has two separate peoples — but Paul’s entire point is the exact opposite. He’s describing one olive tree, not two. One covenant family, rooted in Christ. Gentiles are grafted into the same tree the Jews were already a part of — the tree of faith, the promise, the Messiah. Jews who believe are grafted back in, not into a separate plan, but into the same body.

Paul doesn’t say, “God has two trees.” He says there’s one, and both Jew and Gentile now enter through faith in Jesus, or not at all.

“All Israel will be saved” — yes. But not by a future ethnic reset button. “The Deliverer will come from Zion and remove ungodliness from Jacob.” That’s the New Covenant — fulfilled at the cross, not postponed to some end-times drama. Verse 27 literally says: “This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” That’s already been offered — through Christ alone.

There is no separate Jewish gospel, no Plan B. There's one Shepherd, one flock. The “partial hardening” Paul talks about was real — but he also says plainly that everyone who believes is grafted in, and everyone who doesn’t, is cut off. Jew or Gentile. Period. The End.

Let’s stop dividing what Christ came to make one. Ephesians 2 says He broke down the wall. Dispensationalism tries to build it right back up.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

These Dispensationalist evangelicals are so thoroughly brainwashed, they don’t even realize that they, are Israel.

Not modern geography.
Not a secular government.
Not a group of Eastern European converts backed by U.N. paperwork and Rothschild money. (False Israel™)

The Body of Christ is Israel.
The true sons of Abraham are those who are in Christ — not those with a passport from Tel Aviv.

Scripture says it plainly:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
— Galatians 3:29

“He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly… in the spirit.”
— Romans 2:28–29

“They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
— Galatians 3:7

So no — Israel is not a modern political state founded in 1948 by atheists and international bankers.
And it’s certainly not a collection of Eastern European identity thieves whose bloodline traces back to Khazar converts, not to Abraham.

The Church is the Israel of God — the remnant, the elect, the Bride.

If you’re in Christ… you are Israel.

If you reject Christ… you are cut off from the covenant — no matter what blood runs in your veins. Romans 9:6–8 (KJV), Romans 11:19–22 (KJV), Galatians 3:7 (KJV), Galatians 3:29 (KJV), Philippians 3:3 (KJV), Ephesians 2:12–13 (KJV), Galatians 6:15–16 (KJV)

 

[Garee]

All Israel is not born-again Isreal .Just as in the same way not all that name the name Christ are born again Christians.

Christian previously called Israel.

Israel the new born again name, having divorced Jacob. Jacob meaning the deceiver. . one who with the help of his mother grabs the heel of the first born Esau .
Esua who saw no value in the unsen eternal things of Chrsit sold his bith rite for a cup of hariy goapt stew

Israel as a prince in a kingdom of priests as a result of born gain a new creature have power with God power to overcome the wage oF sin

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

In Isaiah 62 God promised to rename his bride previously Israel to the new name Christian.

Christian a denomyn (people identified by location) literally meaning with no other meaning added . . . .Residents of the heavenly city of Christ prepared for his bride the church.

Named after the founder and husband Christ. A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world