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Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Jun 4, 2006.

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  1. Matthew 24:22 “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

    Jesus states above that the only reason any flesh at all is saved is, “for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

    We can sense from that statement that the flesh is not the thing esteemed as important to God, but His elect are what He esteems. (1 Corinthians 1:29; John 6:63; Romans 9:8; 2 Corinthians 5:16)

    And we know that Paul told us, Romans 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

    There again we see that there is a distinction being drawn between Israel of the flesh and what the elect of God is. And that is why Paul tells us plainly that the elect of God are persons selected of their spirit of faith from out of all flesh. Speaking of that election which so many seem to want to confine to the Jews, Paul told us:

    Romans 9:24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

    Notice how Paul ties what he said there to the very prophecy many seek to confine to the Jews:

    Romans 9:25-28 “As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.”

    There is only one group of elect and Paul there affirms that to us, saying, “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only ...”

    We must understand that the elect are God's priests and that God would for their sake cut those days short, as Jesus said and thus not destroy all flesh, is a priestly intercessory function by them as the body of Christ offered for the sins of the world. The elect are the body of Christ, first fruits of the harvest with Christ. They are God's temple which the slower ripening wheat of the harvest is saved through. For where there is a precious first fruits of any harvest there is also the remainder of the harvest yet to be yielded.

    The elect have already been sealed with life by the time of the “great multitude.” That “great multitude” we read of at Revelation chapter 7 is that slower ripening wheat, the remainder of the fields yield. That is why they yet have to be led to life:

    Revelation 7:17 “For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”

    As further evaluation in the Scriptures reveals, the elect are those living fountains of the waters of life.
  2. You may have to clarify that part, because Paul was talking about the flesh 'seed' of Israel which God preserved as that remnant according to the election of grace in the Romans 11:1-5 verses.

    Rom 11:1-5
    1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    All that Scripture part is about a literal flesh elect 'seed' of Israel which God preserved in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not about the spiritual Israel idea of Rom.9. It's about literal bloodline Israelites by birth God preserved in The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  3. May we not confuse ourselves that even in chapter 9 Paul is addressing specifically the high-mindedness of the now proud-minded Gentiles who would think that God had totally cast off the Jews as a people, as that hindered their zeal in preaching to his brethren “as to the flesh.”

    Romans 9:3 “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh...”

    Romans 10:11-14
    11 “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Romans 11:11-31
    11 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    30 For as ye [Gentiles] in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.”

    And as to the elect, Paul showed, both in the verses I cited from Romans 9 and in various other places among his writings, that this elect is one body in Christ, selected of all nationalities of men:

    Romans 9:24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

    That statement above clearly distinguishes the elect as separate from the divisions of the flesh.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

    Why then would we yet insist upon maintaining the separation of the flesh as though inheritance for anything from God is through the flesh?

    1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

    The flesh cannot inherit anything from God. That inheritance must come by man's spirit apart from their flesh where there is no difference to cause division.

    2 Corinthians 5:16 “Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”

    All flesh was corrupted in Adam. All flesh was sentenced to die with Adam as all flesh is Adam's flesh.

    Galatians 3:22 “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    When God showed favor to Abel was it by Abel's flesh? No! It was by the spirit shown of Abel's way.

    What about Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Was it by their flesh that God showed favor to them? Again, No! It was by their spirit of faith.

    We must not let ourselves be confused by God's using the flesh to demonstrate His plan to us. The flesh was used only to paint a mere prophetic picture to us of God's plan for the salvation of mankind. There was no other way it could be done and the entire world have the chance to grasp at it. God used what was available to paint the picture to us and he chose the most strong-minded among flesh to do that with that all flesh would be left without cause for boasting in the fleshly heritages.

    The flesh is but a shell which we make an idol between us and God when we credit it as important to the salvation of God. It is only the spirit which has any credit with God for it is in our spirit that we can image God who himself is spirit. And it is in our spirit that we prove who we really are as a person before God.

    Roman's 11:1-5 does reference the natural Jews but not in a way that proves them to be the whole of the remnant of elect.

    In fact, Romans 11:1-5 in no way supports that all natural Israel will be saved, clearly showing that it was only a mere 7,000 out of those the scripture spoke of who were saved. And you cannot take that passage of scripture without using other scripture and further of Paul's own letters to expound what Paul meant there insofar as who the one body of elect in Christ are. There are not two bodies; there is one body. One group of elect of God in Christ.

    1 Corinthians 12:12 “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.”
  4. You can quote the whole Bible but it's not going to change the meaning of those Romans 11:1-5 verses about God's election of a remnant of the flesh seed of Israel according to the election of grace.

    Rom 1:16
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    So was Apostle Paul contradicting himself with the following?

    Rom 1:16
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Rom 2:9-11
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    If our Heavenly Father is no respecter of persons like Paul also says there, then why did he say that applies "to the Jew first"?
  5. I support your comment there 100% by how it is worded, for it is quite correct.

    The Jews were to whom the Word of God first came. In fact, all during Jesus' earthly ministry while he was alive in the flesh he instructed his followers, saying:

    Matthew 10:5-6 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    The Jews were indeed the first of humankind prepared to receive Christ as their salvation. The message concerning him was indeed first exclusively to the Israel and Israel's lost sheep, that the good news of salvation could take root in the earth.

    That goes hand in hand with what the scriptures tell us about God's seeking to reap to himself a precious vine producing fine wine from out of the entire earth.

    Jesus addresses that at John chapter 15.
  6. Romans 1:13 “And I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that I have often purposed to come unto you, (and have been hindered hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.”

    Thus is important when we read Paul's letter to the Romans that we understand he was speaking principally to the Gentiles although what he was explaining to the Gentiles required that he speak of things pertaining to natural Jews. Paul's principle objective is also seen in verse 13, to stir the Gentiles up to preach the Good News concerning Christ, that he might bear fruit among them in return for his work of preaching to them.

    Though the fruits Paul sought after among the Gentiles were indeed a variety spiritual good works of God, the chief good work of God is for us to receive freely and give freely that we might help to save others. For, no greater love has any man than that he should lay his life down for his friends.

    Surely then, Paul would not desire this fruit to be horded among the Gentiles alone and not also shared among his own flesh and blood countrymen.

    Romans 1:14-17
    14 “I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
    15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

    A key part of the above citation is, “the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith...” This thought is instrumental to how God would use the Gentiles to entice as many of the as yet unbelieving natural Jews to faith as would prove to have it deep in their in their hearts somewhere to come to faith. Such ones would be the remnant of elect which God knew and foretold would yet exist individually among the natural Jews, even though they had temporarily gone the way of blindness as popularized by their nation's religious leaders.

    There is where scripture texts such as this one which follows are commonly misunderstood by modern language:

    Romans 11:8 “(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

    Many misunderstand that as God deliberately causing their blindness and thus conclude that God intends to one day awaken the entire fleshly nation. Let us think about it. I might give my foolish friend over to a course he has his mind and heart set upon, but that in no way means I caused his foolish course nor does it mean that I caused his mind and heart to be set upon it.

    Who did Jesus believe was at fault for Israel's blindness? We ought to realize that if the idea we hold differs from Jesus' it is we who must be wrong.

    Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

    By Jesus' statement above, can it really be true that God desired Israel's blindness? Or, do you claim that Jesus desired something different than his Father? Ponder the whole of Matthew 23. If anyone can come away from Jesus' words yet believing that God caused their blindness rather than merely haven permitted them to go their own stubbornly prideful way, then I have no doubt they can also make any verse in the Bible seem to say what they desire it to say.

    But if anyone feels convicted let him be grateful. It is growth and growth often comes with growing pains not to be regretted.

    So then, what is the advantage the Jews of Paul's day had and does that advantage apply to today's Jews?

    Romans 3:1-2 “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.”

    Do the modern Jews yet have those oracles? No, they do not, and thus neither do they have that advantage any longer.

    What are those oracles? They were utterances of God through the mouths of his prophets which God committed to the assistance of Israel. The word, 'oracle', means 'utterance'.

    Jesus plainly told us, Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

    Some of you won't like me for telling you this but it is better I be hated of men than of God. I must speak what God has shown me, even as you will choose and do as you will. It is by no means my intentions to offend but to share and save.

    May the times of darkness pass and light have the day.
  7. Yet there's so much more, that is, for those who understand The Gospel after the passion of Christ that fulfilled the "multitude of nations" prophecy that the literal seed of Ephraim was to become (Gen.48). Even many believing Jews seem to have a problem with this, when they shouldn't since it is God's Word.
  8. #128 Jehonadab, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    The key is in seeing that it has always been man's spirit God made his promises to. Galatians 4:29

    A promise is not a stipulation. When there are stipulations given then the promise has not yet really been made. The promise awaits those stipulations to be met.

    Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
  9. #129 rag4aCrown, May 27, 2014
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
    I seen a banner wave across the right side of me about 3 months ago; "sealed". Amen
    I have been washed in the blood of Christ while standing under a large tent; He washed me. However, I did not know then what it was. It was just amazing. (Vision, eyes wide open) 16 yrs. ago.
    After this happen many spiritual awakenings took place.
    I seen the world trade towers fall abt. 2 yrs. before it happen. (night vision).16 yrs. ago.
    I saw an "open door" in heaven set before me. It was solid gold. The door was open and the glory of God shined through the door and down the steps. Wow....(Vision; eyes wide open) 15 yrs ago.
    I saw the stars exploding, the New Jerusalem, a massive meteor, sky split wide open and a voice that dominated everything in heaven and earth, as thou it were thunder; it said, "you corrupt people. I now execute final judgment." More than this was spoken but I can not recall it. (night vision) abt. 15 yrs. ago.
    I have been baptized with His baptism; only He can give the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Vision; eyes wide open) 2 yrs. ago.
    Things God has commanded of me; I obeyed. These things are all written in Revelations 3:7 the church in Philadelphia

    Now; God is preparing me in my ministry ; John 3:17,18,19; Luke 11:31; Revelation 12
    I look homely, I am clothed in rags; but what is within me is Jesus. My Lord and Savior and the testimony I carry. Amen.

    I would be most interested in your take on this.
    All praise, honor, and glory be to God. Amen.
  10. An important matter to ponder about those 144,000 out of the literal tribes of Israel, especially if you know your Old Testament history and prophecies involving God's split of old Israel into 2 separate 'houses', and their separation from each other, is that 144,000 is a very SMALL... number of them that will be sealed with God's sealing for the end.

    God's prophecy to Jacob in Genesis was that his seed would become "a company of nations". And to Ephraim, Jacob transferred that prophecy to him that he would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). That was originally involving God's prophecy to Abraham, that his 'seed' would become as many as the sands of the sea, and stars as the sky.

    The greater number of Israelites are not Jews, just as the majority of Israelites in Solomon's day dwelt in the northern lands with one of the tribe of Ephraim as their head. The Jews became a separate group unto themselves, at Jerusalem, which God called the "house of Judah", made up of only 3 tribes of Israel (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, per 1 Kings 12 forward). The greater portion of Israelites were under Ephraim in the north, known in God's Word after split as the "house of Israel".

    Israel (ten tribes) was scattered among the Gentiles, and the majority of them along with believing Gentiles believed on Jesus Christ after His death and resurrection. They became "a multitude of nations" under Christ Jesus, just as it still is today, believing Gentiles graffed in with them.

    So in reality, we are talking about a whole lot more people today as Israelites than just Jews, but still ONLY 12,000 of each Israelite tribe will be sealed for the end time events! That means, not really that many will be sealed, especially if one realized how many total Israelites are actually in today's world (not just Jews, but also scattered ten tribe Israelites that long ago lost knowledge of their Israelite heritage).

    God did this so that The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles, offering them His Salvation also, and not just to His chosen of the seed of Israel.

    This is why at Rev.7:9 we are shown the "great multitude" out of every nation representing Gentile believers that will be sealed for the end also. No one in the last days once Christ returns will receive white robes having washed them in the Blood of The Lamb unless they first believed on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and thus being 'sealed' with God's sealing for the end.
  11. #131 Florist, Nov 20, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
    Hello Chad I'm really confused by your interpretation of the new song in chapter 14 vs 3, the scripture says it was a new song and no one could learn the song but the 144 000 which were redeemed from earth. How do you know the if the theme of the song was ' redeemed' if no one could learn the song but them?
  12. Continue reading into Revelation 15, which is pointing to the saved of the Gentiles.

    Even in the New Testament, there is a distinction made between two groups of believers in Christ's Church, the first being the seed of Israel, and the other those of the Gentiles. Both are to become one in Christ Jesus and is His Church. But like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11, God will not go back on His gifts of calling about His choosing of the seed of Israel.

    In Rev.7 we have this distinction also, between the 144,000 sealed out of the tribes of Israel, which means of the 'seed' of Israel, and then the "great multitude" that none could number of Rev.7:9 forward, put for believing Gentiles. Same thing happens with the two groups in Rev.14 & Rev.15.
  13. Best not lean to our own understanding.
    If the Holy Ghost, the only true Teacher, has not unveiled the prophecies to us with wisdom and understanding by revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ, we should remain silent; least we teach more lies.
  14. Interesting
    Interesting but as the tribe of Joseph did not exist how can they be Jews also the tribe of Levi was the 13th tribe and not among the 12?
  15. Who are the 144,000 and their scriptural importance to God? Rev 14:1 . . . a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem - Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand.

    Rev 14:4 These are . . . firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Firstfruits of who? Reborn Israel?

    Is Israel of today the nation God will call His inheritance (Isa 19:25)?

    Rom 9:6 . . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Rom 11:26 . . . all Israel shall be saved:

    Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    Act 15:14 “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.” (Is this complete?)

    But when the times of the Gentiles have passed, the eyes of Israel are going to be open again.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus.

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