1 John Epistles - Discussion - Are we SINNERS when Saved?

[brighthouse98]

Some very interesting reading upon this subject,I suppose it matters greatly about how one defines what a sinner is. A fool is a sinner to me( Psalm 14:1) We however have become fools for Christ( 1 Cor 4:10-14) One cannot be both.( 2 Cor 5:17-20) I am not talking about sinless perfection,rather I am talking about having faults not sin.( 1 John 5:15-20)

Our Lord has already done everything he will ever do for us,his work is finished,our work is to believe upon him!( 2 Peter 1:3-11) Jesus gave each of us a measure of faith( Rom 12:3) Please pay attention to verse 5 of 2 Peter and beyond.YOUR faith!! Faith without works is what? as James said. The work he is talking about is to believe!( John 6:29-30) Like the parable of the talants( Matt 25:14-30)

Jesus has entrusted us with his measure of faith,we know he is the one who grants us his children, the following.( 1 Cor 1:30-31) A sinner does not have this,for they look to be lead by there feeling, by there emotions by themselves! We do not! WE!!!! ( Rom 8:14-15) The scripture related earlier if we say we have no sin, pertains to us before we became believers,so of course all had sin.To me, if a person still looks at himself as a sinner,then one is still in bondage.

Please show a chapter or verse upon any disciple or apostle who ever repented AFTER they became a believer? ( Acts 15:36-39) later Paul takes him back in ( 2 Tim 4:11) Why did not Paul or Mark not repent to each other? Not even a I am sorry LOL Faults, not sin.( Rom 8:1) If we are still sinners after Jesus comes into our life,then how can any of us stand before the Lord not guilty? How can anyone hear thou good and faithful servant enter into your rest?

UNLESS!!! Jesus chooses to look at us like he tells us to look at one another!!( Phil 4:7-9)How can any peace be established unless we choose to believe in this as well? ( Rom 15:13) I am not a sinner,I am as God calls me!!( a saint!!) ( 1 Cor 1:2) Jesus did not refer to his church as sinners,but rather saints. Do I have faults?? YES! But Jesus cannot dwell in one who still holds to there old nature.Sin is for the law,GRACE ( Titus 2:11-14) instructs! To follow in to me. So please consider this as well. Blessing all!!( Col 1:23!!!) IF YOU!

 

[B-A-C]

Just because His works are finished, doesn't mean ours are.

Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4; For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:5; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
Heb 4:6; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

That's great Jesus finished His work. But you still have to be obedient.

God doesn't call everyone a saint, not even everyone who believes in Him.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Faith alone doesn't save anyone.

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

There are plenty of people who believe in Jesus who are going to be disappointed one day. Especially those who keep on living in sin.

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’
Matt 7:23; But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Please show a chapter or verse upon any disciple or apostle who ever repented AFTER they became a believer? (

...and yet some verses say Christians need to repent. Are you an apostle? If not don't "only" focus on them, but all verses about Christians.
All four of these verses are written to the church.

Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:16; 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

There are other verses were believers still have to repent.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Your brother - is a fellow Christian here. If he "repents" then forgive him.
Even so, did a disciple ever repent?

Gal 2:11; But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal 2:12; For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13; The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal 2:14; But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Did Peter repent of this?

Mark 14:72; Immediately a rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, "Before a rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." And he began to weep.

Did Peter repent of this?

 

[brighthouse98]

Bac!!!!! Exactly my point!!!! Just the last part. LOL Peter cried but never said he was sorry did he?? hehe

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi All,


Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Me: If we follow the spirit, we cannot sin, because we are born of God. But if, and we do, follow the flesh, we shall die if we continue to do so.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I believe this verse is referring to the lost souls, the sinners who do not accept they are sinners, the deceiver of souls is their father.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But the following verses compare the 'sinners' with the 'righteous'

1 John 3:6-10
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. (Saved souls) Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. (Lost souls)
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. (Lost souls)
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God (Saved souls) does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

I think over the years it has become all to common for believers to call themselves sinners, because as saved believers we understand sin, we aim not to sin, and probably also because the lost souls do not accept themselves as sinners. Which ever is tight or wrong doesn't, shouldn't really matter. What scripture says is exceptionally important. There are as we know verses that point in that direction.

But here, John the disciple whom Jesus loved, the author of John's Gospel separates sinners and righteous in the Epistles.

He makes clear...
Sinners are the lost souls
True believers, who 'abide in Christ' are the Righteous, so we should think we are righteous, or at least we are 'practicing righteousness.'

The words that come to mind when I started this thread for discussion, and again today, are... we are what we think we are, we are what we think! In other words we really are shaped by our thoughts.

If a Saved Soul says I am a sinner, they are admitting, I feel, they are going to sin again. But if we 'abide in Christ' how can we be sinners? If we abide in Christ, He abides in us, He is Righteous, so we too are righteous. We are what we think we are, we are shaped by our thoughts, be the renewing if our mind. If therefore we thinks we are righteous, will we not try more to be righteous, as He is Righteous. If we say we are sinners what will happen? We will sin and sin again.

The key word in the passage I feel is 'practice', we are to practice righteous, what does practicing something do? Practice makes perfect, now that is another word that I feel has caused issues over the years. We are not perfect, we will never be perfect whilst in the flesh, but we are righteous, we were made righteous the second we repented of all our sins and accepted Jesus into our heart and our life. The was probably the only time we were truly righteous, every sin wiped away, remembered no more. From that point we are to abide in Christ, allow Christ to abide in us, and 'Practice' righteousness.

We are what we think we are, we are shaped by our thoughts, the question for us all has to be...
- are we sinners or
- are we 'practicing righteousness',
- are we presenting ourselves Holy and acceptable
- are we being transformed by the renewing of our mind

If we consider ourselves sinners I don't think we are providing our reasonable service

Ephesians 4:20-24 (NKJV)
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 12:1-2 (NKJV)
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Blessings

 

[Dave M]

We are what we think we are, we are shaped by our thoughts, the question for us all has to be...
- are we sinners or
- are we 'practicing righteousness',
- are we presenting ourselves Holy and acceptable
- are we being transformed by the renewing of our mind

interesting but I am not in full agreement with you on this brother. these versus comes to mind. We are all sinners, it is Jesus Christ who makes us righteous not our-self, it is Jesus Christ who takes away our sin not our self. I am a sinner with out Jesus, no I am not a practicing sinner at all (Jesus set me free), no sin holds me hostage I have been set free, yet on occasion I will hollar a bad word, so lets not lie to ourselfs that makes me a sinner, nothing but Love for you brother, add in on a edit, remembering ourselves as sinners to me is a way to satay humble and to realize it is Jesus who took away my sins and made me righteous, he gets all credit, yet I do realize we have responsibility also

Matthew 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:
10“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed,a ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’
14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Brother-Paul]

interesting but I am not in full agreement with you on this brother. these versus comes to mind. We are all sinners, it is Jesus Christ who makes us righteous not our-self, it is Jesus Christ who takes away our sin not our self. I am a sinner with out Jesus, no I am not a practicing sinner at all (Jesus set me free), no sin holds me hostage I have been set free, yet on occasion I will hollar a bad word, so lets not lie to ourselfs that makes me a sinner, nothing but Love for you brother, add in on a edit, remembering ourselves as sinners to me is a way to satay humble and to realize it is Jesus who took away my sins and made me righteous, he gets all credit, yet I do realize we have responsibility also

Matthew 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:
10“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed,a ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’
14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Greetings brother,

Having read your reply, I can see the point I was trying to make has not come over as it was meant, for that I apologise.

First I quoted the following scripture, I have included all the Epistle in previous posts the ensure the context is correct.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here John is making clear the situation of the lost souls, we know that as it states, the Truth is not in them, so they are not His, they belong to sin, the world and the devil, the devil is the father of all lost souls.

If a lost soul says, they have no sin, they deceive themselves, the Truth is not in them.

I them quoted the following scripture from John's third epistle.

1 John 3:6-10
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. (Saved souls) Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. (Lost souls)
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. (Lost souls)
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God (Saved souls) does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

John first made clear that the lost souls are sinners, here he talks to the saved souls, the ekklesia. First he tells us that a true believer, 'abides in Christ', 'let no one deceive us', 'he who 'practices' righteousness is righteous, just as He is Righteous.

Now the point you are seeing, which is not what I put over is, we CANNOT ever, no matter what we do or try do, make ourselves righteous, those who try, or state they are righteous in their own strength or being, are like the example you kindly included.

That is not the situation at all brother, we are 'made righteous' by Christ, not our own doing. v7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. We were made righteous through faith, through repentance, through accepting Christ Jesus, through Him, through His blood, through the cross.

The point we are most righteous is the point Christ made us righteous, when we repented and submitted, that second, that second all our sins were washed clean, wiped away, forgotten. From then on we will sin, especially when we are babes in Christ, but as we 'abide in Christ, allowing Him to abide in us', we practices righteousness we are made righteous, just as He is righteous. Not our own doing. It is because we are Saved, because we are Abiding in Him, because we are 'Practicing righteousness'.

1 John 2:29 (NKJV)
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Romans 5:1-6 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

As saved believers, born of Him, providing we abide in Him, we are justified by faith, we have peace within, a peace that passeth all our understanding, we have a new hope that does not disappoint, we practice righteousness.

Practice righteousness, practice is the key word for us here, righteousness comes from God, through Christ, we are not worthy, He accepts us as we were, He makes us righteous, from then we are to practice righteousness. Will we sin, yes we will, but the more we abide in Him, the less we will sin, because we walk with Him, abide in Him, aim not to sin, learn how to protect us from sin, we practice righteousness.

Genesis 6:9
9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Deuteronomy 6:25
25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

Our righteousness, given only by God, is given to us if we obey and follow His Commands, His Commandments.

Job 27:6
6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go; My heart shall not reproach me as long as I live.

We are to hold fast to our Righteousness, knowing God gave us it, it was nothing we did to obtain it, we are to abide in Him, let Him abide in us, and not let go of the righteousness we received the second we first believed and followed the Lord.

Deuteronomy 6:17-19
17 You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, His testimonies, and His statutes which He has commanded you.
18 And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, that it may be well with you, and that you may go in and possess the good land of which the LORD swore to your fathers,
19 to cast out all your enemies from before you, as the LORD has spoken.

We are to diligently keep God's commandments, and the commandments Jesus gave us, in doing to we are 'practicing righteousness'. We are to do what is right and good in the sight of the Lord, 'practice righteousness'.

Psalm 7:8
8 The LORD shall judge the peoples; Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me.

This was why I put in the previous post, with slight changes to clarify what I have added above.....

If a Saved Soul says I am a sinner, they are admitting, I feel, they are going to sin again. But if we 'abide in Christ' how can we call ourselves sinners? If we abide in Christ, He abides in us, He is Righteous, so we too are righteous through Him. We are what we think we are, we are shaped by our thoughts, be the renewing if our mind. If therefore we practice righteousness, will we not try all the more to be like Jesus, as He is Righteous? If we say we are sinners what will happen? We will sin and sin again.

The key word in the passage I feel is 'practice', we are to 'practice righteous', what does practicing something do? The world says practice makes perfect, that is another word I feel has caused issues over the years. We are not perfect, we will never be perfect whilst in the flesh, but we are made righteous ,the second we repented of all our sins and accepted Jesus into our heart and our life. This was probably the only time we were truly righteous, because that second every sin we had ever committed was wiped away, remembered no more. From that point on, we are to abide in Christ, let Christ to abide in us, and 'Practice' righteousness. As stated before I add again here, yes we will sin, but in Him, we aim not to sin and as we practice righteousness we become more like Him, not like he who is in the world. Because greater is He who is within than he who is in the world.

We are what we think we are, we are shaped by our thoughts, the question for us all has to be...
- are we sinners or
- are we 'practicing righteousness',
- are we presenting ourselves Holy and acceptable
- are we being transformed by the renewing of our mind

If we consider ourselves sinners I don't think we are providing our reasonable service.

As you said above Dave...

Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, a ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13 But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’
14 I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Luke does not tell us if either of these who in this parable were saved souls.
- We know the Pharisees were noted for their public appearances in the Temple, trying to make themselves 'look religious'. Jesus denounced their religion and their ways
- We also know that the tax collectors were noted for their dishonesty, betrayers of their own people.

The tax collector appears to have a searching heart, he was clearly under great conviction of his sin.

He had watched others of faith for some time, his eyes were open to the hypocrites, which maybe caused him to look at himself, a tax collector, a hated person, a dishonest person, the penny dropped, his heart opened, he looked up to heaven, but his sense of unworthiness prevented him from praying like the hypocrites. He kept beating his breast, a sign of sorrow. His prayer was simple, God, be merciful to me a sinner! Even as he looks for forgiveness he recognizes what he deserves. And he calls himself a sinner. He, too, puts himself in a class of his own, but how differently from the Pharisee! He has nothing to plead in extenuation. He can only throw himself on God’s mercy.

The tax collectors plea that is accepted. He went home justified, reckoned as righteous, ‘acquitted of his sins’ (NEB).

As you said Dave...

Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

No one makes themselves righteous, Christ makes us righteous, the second we are saved. From then on we walk with Him, we Abide in Him, we 'Practice righteousness'

1 John 3:6-10
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. (Saved souls) Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. (Lost souls)
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. (Lost souls)
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God (Saved souls) does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

I do hope I have better explained, what I was trying to say from scripture.

Blessings

 

[Br. Bear]

Jehovah Tsidkenu: The Lord Our Righteousness

I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Isaiah 61:10

 

[Dave M]

I do hope I have better explained, what I was trying to say from scripture.

thanks brother Paul for you thoughtful response, we agree more then we disagree that is for sure,

but I am a sinner saved by Grace through Jesus Christ. My sin nature has to be battled everyday, I have to endure to the end. If you forget you are a sinner you may very well be over taken by sin, is my thought.

We have been set free from the bondage of sin, yet we still have to fight our sin nature. before we were set free we had no hope for victory, but victory has to be done every day

Although I do understand what you are saying, and agree with most of it, I just have a different out look at how we should think. I know I have been set free of the hold sin had on my life, yet I still have a sin nature that has to be put in check every day, For example, the flesh has to be crucified every day, I currently had way to many protien bars yesterday, I should of stopped eating them at 1 or two but I had more then that, my flesh won over my spirit.


The apostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner of all, notice he does not say "was" as in past , he say was is as in presence while a apostle.

15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst.
16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.…

Thanks brother Paul for making me think, weather we agree or disagree nothing but Love for you

 

[Brother-Paul]

thanks brother Paul for you thoughtful response, we agree more then we disagree that is for sure,

but I am a sinner saved by Grace through Jesus Christ. My sin nature has to be battled everyday, I have to endure to the end. If you forget you are a sinner you may very well be over taken by sin, is my thought.

We have been set free from the bondage of sin, yet we still have to fight our sin nature. before we were set free we had no hope for victory, but victory has to be done every day

Although I do understand what you are saying, and agree with most of it, I just have a different out look at how we should think. I know I have been set free of the hold sin had on my life, yet I still have a sin nature that has to be put in check every day, For example, the flesh has to be crucified every day, I currently had way to many protien bars yesterday, I should of stopped eating them at 1 or two but I had more then that, my flesh won over my spirit.


The apostle Paul calls himself the worst sinner of all, notice he does not say "was" as in past , he say was is as in presence while a apostle.

15This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst.
16But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.…

Thanks brother Paul for making me think, weather we agree or disagree nothing but Love for you

Greetings Dave

Thanks for your response and scripture, it has been a real pleasure to discuss this with you. It makes studying together a blessing when we do so with an open mind, an open heart and in prayer.

I am a sinner too Dave, before I was saved I would never accept I was a sinner, but before I was saved I also didn't believe there was a devil, we need light, if we do not have light we do not see clearly, we do not understand the things of the light. We do not believe there is a devil because The Light has not revealed it to us.

Since I was a saved soul, that is for thirty years, I have always considered myself a sinner, it is what is taught, it is in scripture, but so is the fact we are made righteous and should practice righteousness.

It is one of those things in scripture where both situations are right. We are sinners, you quoted probably the best scripture from Paul

1 Timothy 1:12-17 (NKJV)
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

But, let us look at this scripture.

Paul suddenly pours out a burst of thanksgiving, that was his style, he marvelled at the gospel, proclaiming

The sudden outburst of thanksgiving which now follows is thoroughly typical of Paul, who never ceased to marvel at the gospel, proclaiming the enabling power of God. We also remember other outbursts of proclamation, 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me', he had a lovely way with words, an even better one with The Word.

Why did Paul make this sudden statement? Because I feel he was so grateful for his salvation and wanted others to enjoy what he had, as we also do brother. Let us proclaim Amen.

(Continuing, I pressed the wrong button!)

 

[Brother-Paul]

Now this is what Paul says here, so we continue in context of the message...

1 Timothy 1:13,16
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Paul therefore is confirming is sinning state here, verse 13, based on his formerly condition, a lost soul, a persecutor of Christians, he was quite simply a Sinner.

Then he moves on to what we read in verse 17, HOWEVER, FOR THIS REASON... he gives the statement as an example, AS A PATTERN... who to? As a pattern to... Those who are going to believe.

In context therefore it seems he has compiled a pattern or formula, a statement the churches know as trustworthy. Paul had gained the respect and was Trusted here he was writing to Timothy, may be he wishes to remind Timothy of what he should be preaching so that he to could adapt to the formula Paul states?

The Truth in the message is clear, Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Paul therefore points Timothy in his message to him, to the heart of the gospel. The Truth in the Word.

So what I am reading here Dave is, Paul was sending a message to Timothy, for the Church, with a pattern and a reason. The patterns was Paul was a sinner, a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man, of which he was chief, of which he was the worst! Note; when he was a lost soul. But Christ comes to save sinners, so for that reason he used the pattern...

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. (or of whom I was the worst type, before I was saved)
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

So I feel brother that this scripture refers to Paul's sinful situation, before he was saved, not after.

So this brings me back to the point, from being born-again, we are made righteous, through Christ. Though we may/will sin after being made a new creation, we are as John said in his epistles, 'to Practice Righteousness'

May the Lord truly Bless you brother.

Jesus loves you, I do too.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Jehovah Tsidkenu: The Lord Our Righteousness

I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Isaiah 61:10

Amen brother Amen

To God be the Glory, Jesus is Lord.

 

[Dave M]

Hi brother Paul I think Paul was speaking about his present state as sinner, here are some more examples for you

Romans 7:14-25
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. ...

Romans 7:24
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

notice he say I AM he does not say "WAS"


I think we are pretty much on the same page, you have said you are a sinner that is my whole point, I know I am made righteous through Christ. I think we are maybe just aproaching the way we look at it differently.

We have been saved, we are being sanctified, BUT we have not yet reached a glorified state , at that time we will be sinless we wont have to battle it any more.. then and only then can we say we are not sinners IMO

 

[hgreen]

Hi All,


Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Me: If we follow the spirit, we cannot sin, because we are born of God. But if, and we do, follow the flesh, we shall die if we continue to do so.

 

[hgreen]

A Christian counselor who helped me with accepting Jesus Christ, would always tell me to starve the flesh, and feed the Spirit! Do the opposite of what the flesh wants! She would say, Heidi it is better to enter the Kingdom blind and without limbs, than having all parts of the body and entering Hell!

 

[Br. Bear]

A Christian counselor who helped me with accepting Jesus Christ, would always tell me to starve the flesh, and feed the Spirit! Do the opposite of what the flesh wants! She would say, Heidi it is better to enter the Kingdom blind and without limbs, than having all parts of the body and entering Hell!

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 18:8

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell,e into the unquenchable fire. If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.g And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’
For everyone will be salted with fire.i Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.
Mark 9:43-50

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make, will endure before Me,”
declares the LORD,
“so your descendants and your name will endure.
From one New Moon to another
and from one Sabbath to another,
all mankind will come to worship before Me,”
says the LORD.
“As they go forth, they will see the corpses
of the men who have rebelled against Me;
for their worm will never die,
their fire will never be quenched,
and they will be a horror
to all mankind.”
Isaiah 66:22-24

 

[Br. Bear]

@Dave M & @Brother-Paul

Greetings,

I am reminded of the many accounts of the landmarks and the call to and need to remember from whence we have been delivered and what from, by Who and the liberty and peace that resulted, in Scripture.

As we know, we do remember our own conversion from and to and if we are diligent, we remember by Whom and how.

--------------
One thing i have found helpful in looking at 1John is to go slowly at the start and see that it is like a 'summary' of what we read in the Gospels. {the saints back then did not have the Gospels to read as we do} I don't think 1John is a set apart teaching or a bunch of verses etc to make a 'law' from, but as we read, it is what we [they, then, the Apostles] saw, heard and even handled of the Word of Life....

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1John 1:1-4



and then, in verse 5, he continues reiterating....
This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you,...

so, it may serve you well to read the Gospels [at least John] and 1John together, or one then the other and back again?


Bless you ....><>

ps... i want to say that in reading your interaction between each other how precious it is to see the gentleness and love with which you care for each other as you interact .

 

[Br. Bear]

If we read in Ezekiel 36 the following:

16 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds. Their behavior before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman’s impurity. 18 So I poured out My wrath upon them because of the blood they had shed on the land, and because they had defiled it with their idols.
19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered throughout the lands. I judged them according to their ways and their deeds. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they had gone.
22 Therefore tell the house of Israel that this is what the Lord GOD says: It is not for your sake that I will act, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which you profaned among the nations to which you went. 23 I will show the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations—the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when I show My holiness in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land.
25 I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

28 Then you will live in the land that I gave your forefathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and I will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will also make the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer bear reproach among the nations on account of famine.
---------------
we see things said that we can relate to, perhaps if i may may more specifically point to verse 25 - 27 [without taking from fullness of the whole passage] and then if we read on notice what comes next....

Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and abominations.
Ezekiel 36:31
and so that it is complete, here are the remaining verses of that passage

32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD—let it be known to you. Be ashamed and disgraced for your own ways, O house of Israel!
33 This is what the Lord GOD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be resettled and the ruins to be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through. 35 Then they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden. The cities that were once ruined, desolate, and destroyed are now fortified and inhabited.’
36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt what was destroyed, and I have replanted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it.
37 This is what the Lord GOD says: Once again I will hear the plea of the house of Israel and do for them this: I will multiply their people like a flock. 38 Like the numerous flocks for sacrifices at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so the ruined cities will be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”

-------------------

There is much in Scripture we can learn from!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

As I was studding the word this morning in my bible's study notes this came to light, I thought it was a good fit for this thread.

"Paul's own experience and the experience of Christians in general. Although we are free from the condemnation of the law, sin nonetheless continues to swell with in, and all genuine Christians should be profoundly aware of how far they fall short of God's absolute standard of righteousness, thus Paul cries out "Wretched man that I am" ''

 

[brighthouse98]

Rom 7:25!!