1 John Epistles - Discussion - Are we SINNERS when Saved?

[Brother-Paul]

Scripture tells us to WATCH, be READY, be SINLESS

Do the two verses below from John's Epistles conflict?

When we are saved, are we still sinners, or are we without sin?

Below are verses from the Epistles of John from 1 John.

1 John 1:8 (NKJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:1-10 (NKJV)
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
- Whoever abides in Him does not sin

1 John 1:8 is a straightforward statement, so I look deeper into 1 John 3:6 by first looking at verses 1-10

I add a few thoughts on the way, but do welcome all comments on these statements by John's Epistles, the Disciple Jesus Loved, the same author as John's Gospel.

1 John 3:1-10 (NKJV)
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!
As born-again, spirit filled believers we are 'Children of God'
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Because we are His, purchased through the blood of Christ, we do not intend to sin, but when we do sin, we repent immediately, so as to remain Righteous.
When we are saved, we become Children of God, we start off as babes, babies make mistakes as they learn, we sin in our new faith as we learn.
God understands and forgives us, keeping us Righteous, so long as we are abiding in Him, He can abide with us, we remain Righteous in His Sight.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Those who commit sins are the wicked, sinful, Christ rectors, who belong to SIN, the world and the devil.
We no longer belong to, SIN, the world and the devil, we belong to God through Jesus, washed in His Blood and made Righteous in the sight of God our Father.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Whoever abides in Him - DOES NOT SIN.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
John now clarifies his statement. 'Let no one deceive us' - If we practice Righteous we will be Righteous - Just as He is Righteous.
He who DOES NOT SIN, John says, Let no one deceive us, these people are Righteous (NOT Sinners)

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
John confirms, HE WHO SINS belongs to SIN, the world and the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Again John repeats, who ever is born of God, born again, become a new creation DOES NOT SIN.
John goes on to confirm, those of us born of God, CANNOT SIN, because we are born of God, His Spirit is in us. We are claimed, we are His.
God cannot abide in SIN, He hates sin, providing we abide in Him, He can abide in us, we 'Walk in Faith', we 'Walk in Righteousness'.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

It is a common for believers to consider ourselves sinners, that is because we are trying to be right with God, we are aiming to be perfect, we are in the flesh and the flesh is weak. But if we are born-again, Christ's Spirit is in us, He enters our hearts when we repent of ALL our sins, when we ask Jesus into our hearts and follow Him daily.
All past sins at that point are wiped away, our slate is clean. We are at that point SIN-LESS, we are made Righteous, we become Children of God.

But many preach and many believe we are sinners after being Saved, and the verse below is one of the reasons for these thoughts.

1 John 1:8 (NKJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So which verse is right... they are both part of scripture, therefore both are correct, together let us discuss why we think that is so.

To avoid the old issue of letting one verse speak, I add all of John's first Epistle, it will help us see what John wrote, in context, when comparing the writings.

1 John 1:1-10 (NKJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[B-A-C]

My take on this...

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life:
“A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil–he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.”
He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you–and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

Now of course this story isn't in the Bible. But the principle of the story is.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We can obey sin/death or we can be obedient/righteousness. Who we decide to feed is up to us. The choices we make everyday.

I'm not sure we ever conquer the flesh 100% while we are in this flesh. If we say we have no sin... we are liars.

But we don't have to live "in" sin. We can if we really want to, but if we do... sin and death win.

There are over a dozen verses in the new Testament that talk about "practicing" sin... or ..."practicing" righteousness. You are what you practice.
You may sin every now and then... but do you practice it? Practicing is something you do every day and you try to get better at it.

Matt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
Php 4:9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
1Th 4:10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more,
1Ti 5:4 but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Rev 22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

If you ever told a lie... I would say you aren't liar. If you ever stole something, I would say you aren't a thief. I would say you are forgiven.
However, if after becoming a believer you still practice stealing and lying every day.... I would say you are a liar and a thief.
We are what we live.

John 3:21; "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Col 3:9; Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Rev 21:27; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

We are what we do, what we practice.

 

[Dave M]

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life:
“A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil–he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.”
He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you–and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

what a great story I might have to share this one on my FB if thats ok
.

 

[Dave M]

When we are saved, are we still sinners, or are we without sin?

I think as long as we have this flesh on, we are by nature sinners, the Holly spirit gives us a new nature to over power the old nature but it is a battle that we must endure to the end.

This is a great post @Brother-Paul we have had people come on here and say we should be perfect 100%,,,, and then we have had people come on here and say sin no longer exist in the world so we can not possibly sin if Christ has removed it from the world. There is a lot of confusion on this topic and when I fist got saved I was extremely confused on this matter. But I have learned that as @B-A-C says it is the life style we practice that reveals our nature. But when a new Christian becomes born again it takes time, but a changed life style should take place IMO at least it did for me. I know many disagree with a need for a changed lifestyle to be proof of salvation

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings brother Dave

Please bare with me, I am spending time in prayer and reading, I feel this is a very important subject, although I have read it many times before it has never caught my attention as it did this time.

I feel it is even more interesting because it was by John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, I guess also important from my situation is I have always loved John's Gospel.

Another reason I personally feel the topic is important is that the two verses, that appear to contradict each other are in the same group of letters, the first and third Epistles. So on that basis I accept firstly that both statements are right with God, and secondly we are given these extremes in statements to draw us into The Word.

When scripture seems to apply two statements are opposite, we should never take them as one is right and the other is wrong, they are both there for a reason.

Our dear brother, B-A-C, has given a beautiful story, explanation, as he always does, bless him. Thank you brother.

As stated above please bare with me, I am still studying these statements

1 John 1:8 (NKJV)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:6 (NKJV)
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Comparisons will be made by the letters in full, not the verses.

The message I am receiving at present is, it is all down to, 'Our Walk with the Lord', and whether we are walking with Him or not.

Having spent time in prayer and study, last night I looked at several commentaries. It was interest to see that several are saying, to say we are sinners after accepting Christ is wrong, we are not sinners, we are righteous, because He is Righteous, we cannot be in sin and in Christ, so true. Also that if we are Saved, and consider ourselves sinners, we are basically saying, ok we are going to sin, instead of saying I am in Christ, He is in me, I am Righteous because He is Righteous. By saying we are sinners is, in effect, saying we are still part of sin, still associated with the devil!

If we say, I am a loser, we begin to believe we are a loser. If we get a new job, and make a couple of mistakes, and say I keep making mistakes, you can bet you will make more. We are what we think we are. Or put it back in context, we are Righteous not sinners.

1 John 3:8-9 (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I need to spend more time on the Epistles and the content from the two verses in balance with scripture, but I really do feel, 'we are not sinners, we are righteous'.

The blood of Christ, wash(es) us from all sin. God knows we will sin, be we are not sinners, we are in Christ, we don't want to sin, we try not to sin, God knows this, we are his children, adopted into His family.

The sinner is the person who belongs to, sin, the world and the devil, they are sinners because they are in sin, they have sinned, the will sin again, they have not accepted God, commandment-1, they have not accepted Jesus, the Cross is folly to them. THEY ARE SINNERS.

The Saved soul, belongs to God, our past sins are washed away, to be remembered no more. Providing we 'Walk with God, walk with Jesus' we are righteous, we are not sinners. We are Righteous because His Spirit is in us, 'connected' to our spirit when we were born again, we are a new creation, by that we are His, we realise what sin is, we don't want to sin, when we do we repent immediately. God knows our heart, we remain Righteous in Him, through Jesus, as we walk together, in Jesus footsteps, according to The Word.

We are not perfect, that is I feel the wrong message, we will never be 100% because we are in the flesh, but we are His, we are 'Righteous'

The Word is Truth, thanks be to God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, in Jesus Name, Amen.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I think as long as we have this flesh on, we are by nature sinners, the Holly spirit gives us a new nature to over power the old nature but it is a battle that we must endure to the end.

This is a great post @Brother-Paul we have had people come on here and say we should be perfect 100%,,,, and then we have had people come on here and say sin no longer exist in the world so we can not possibly sin if Christ has removed it from the world. There is a lot of confusion on this topic and when I fist got saved I was extremely confused on this matter. But I have learned that as @B-A-C says it is the life style we practice that reveals our nature. But when a new Christian becomes born again it takes time, but a changed life style should take place IMO at least it did for me. I know many disagree with a need for a changed lifestyle to be proof of salvation

Greetings Dave,

No one is perfect, we could never be, that preaching is wrong (Fake preaching, I felt I had to add that )

But we are righteous, when we are Saved, the Spirit of Christ joins our spirit, we walk together, sin cannot come in contact with the Righteousness of Jesus, His Spirit couldn't dwell in us as well as sin.

When we were born again, became a new creation, we took off the 'old sinning self' and put on Christ, the Righteous One. God claimed us, Jesus shed His Blood for us, we are adopted as children of God, we 'no longer belong' to sin, the world and the devil.

As brother B-A-C has kindly stated, it is a lifestyle, if we think we are sinners, we will sin! If we think we are righteous, and as John says, we are, we look to the righteous one, not to sin. We took off the old self, we don't want to sin, if we think we will sin, we sure will.

1 John 1, was the first letter to the church in Ephesus, do to issues he was addressing at that time. 1 John 3 was the third letter he sent, clarifying from his first two, making clear to them (and us) if we are in Christ, we are righteous, because He in us is righteous. Look to Jesus, the righteous one, from whom our salvation has come.

I am just sharing thoughts from scripture brother, comments from all brothers and sisters are very important.

 

[Dave M]

1 John 1:8 (NKJV)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

the ones that say we should be perfect claim this scripture is for those who are not saved yet.

This is not my claim at all, just sharing what I have herd others say

 

[Dave M]

, but we are His, we are 'Righteous'

we ourselfs are made righteous only because of Jesus in us, I think it is very important to Give Jesus the credit here and not to claim it ourselfs, (not saying that you are)

 

[Brother-Paul]

we ourselfs are made righteous only because of Jesus in us, I think it is very important to Give Jesus the credit here and not to claim it ourselfs, (not saying that you are)

I almost agree Dave,

We are made righteous, because of the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit joined with His Spirit, the second we repented and asked Him into our hearts, the start of our 'Walk in Faith, with Jesus'

Jesus is in the Current Heaven, at the Right Hand of God, intercessing our prayers, until the Father, our Father, tells Him to return for His Bride, His Church.

Yes my friend all credit to Jesus.

We are also only righteous due to the cross and Jesus shedding His Blood for our sins.

Bless you

 

[Dave M]

I almost agree Dave,

We are made righteous, because of the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit joined with His Spirit, the second we repented and asked Him into our hearts, the start of our 'Walk in Faith, with Jesus'

Jesus is in the Current Heaven, at the Right Hand of God, intercessing our prayers, until the Father, our Father, tells Him to return for His Bride, His Church.

Yes my friend all credit to Jesus.

We are also only righteous due to the cross and Jesus shedding His Blood for our sins.

Bless you

Jesus spirit the Holly Spirit is what I referring to when I said he is in us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

the ones that say we should be perfect claim this scripture is for those who are not saved yet.

This is not my claim at all, just sharing what I have herd others say

The Epistles of John are unusual in that, there is a lack of salutation, something Paul would always do, to make clear who he was address his message or letter to. If I remember rightly, all other New Testament letters, except Hebrews, have a salutation

So firstly we say, who was John writing to encourage, or correct?

Verse 3 seems to confirm he was writing to believers, and correcting errors in the church.

1 John 1:3-4 (NKJV)
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.


John then emphasises the importance of fellowship, walking in the light, which we can only do if we are saved, and when we are saved, Christ's Blood cleanses us from ALL sin.

1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.


These things he makes clear before saying...

1 John 1:8 (NKJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


It would seem possible, that there could be lost souls amongst them, so in verse 8 John makes clear, sin, deceit and The Truth.

Then he concludes this first letter, by confirming the importance of forgiveness of sins, to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Sin makes us unrighteous, salvation makes us righteous in His sight.

We are saved by grace through faith, via the cross and the shedding of the blood of Christ, which redeems us from our sins, when we repent and accept Jesus into our heart,

If we say, we have not sinned, His Word IS NOT IN US, if His Word, The Word, Jesus, Yeshua, is not in us, in spirit, we are NOT SAVED.

Not perfect as some preach, but made Righteous in His sight

 

[B-A-C]

what a great story I might have to share this one on my FB if thats ok

This story isn't mine. I've heard it several times from different people. I'm sure you could search for it on the internet quite easily.
But I think it would be OK to share it.... public domain so to speak.

 

[B-A-C]

We are made righteous, because of the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit joined with His Spirit, the second we repented and asked Him into our hearts, the start of our 'Walk in Faith, with Jesus'

Billy Graham once said "You cannot separate faith and obedience". I tend to agree with this statement. In your statement above above... you say "we repented". What does repentance mean?
If I'm still doing ALL the same sins I was doing before, just as OFTEN as I was doing them before... did I really repent?

On the other hand, maybe I still do SOME of the sins I did before, a lot less FREQUENTLY than I did before, it would seem I am at least trying to repent.
Now of course none of us can do it on our own as both of you have mentioned we need God's help. The Holy Spirit. But I notice the Holy Spirit is called "the helper" not "the enforcer".

( John 14:16; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7; )

 

[Brother-Paul]

Billy Graham once said "You cannot separate faith and obedience". I tend to agree with this statement. In your statement above above... you say "we repented".
What does repentance mean?

Repentance means understanding:
- understanding what sin is
- understanding what God hates
- understanding we have broken or not done as God commands us
- understanding the vileness of sin in God's eyes

Repentance means wanting to be forgiven:
- we have a change of heart
- we realise the need for a change of direction in our life
- we understanding the vileness of sin in God's eyes
- we truly wanting to be forgiven, being 100% sorry for our sins

Repentance means opening our heart to our creator
- asking forgiveness and truly meaning it
- asking forgiveness and wanting it more than anything else
- asking forgiveness and giving our life back to God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Anyone can ask for forgiveness, God sees and know our heart. He knows if we mean it, He knows if it is lip service and we will do it all again.

If I'm still doing ALL the same sins I was doing before, just as OFTEN as I was doing them before... did I really repent?

Simple answer... No!

On the other hand, maybe I still do SOME of the sins I did before, a lot less FREQUENTLY than I did before, it would seem I am at least trying to repent.

If we realise we are Righteous, if we walk with Christ, if we don't want to marr Christ's image in us, if we do not want a blot or spot of sin on our heart, we are walking righteously

If we think we are sinners we will sin.

We are in the world, but do not belong to, sin, the world and the devil. Christ paid the price for our sins, we just have to walk with Him, talk with Him, aim to be like Him.

Now of course none of us can do it on our own as both of you have mentioned we need God's help. The Holy Spirit. But I notice the Holy Spirit is called "the helper" not "the enforcer".

( John 14:16; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7; )

So true brother

1 John 3:9-11 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

We are to Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk, we belong to the Lord, our Father is not the devil, those who are lost have the devil has their father, even if they do not realise it.

We are to walk with Jesus, we are His disciples, His seed in in us. The spirit of Christ is in us, providing we are truly born again.

If we do not walk in the light, where everything is revealed, we walk in darkness and our sins are like scarlet.

John 8:36 (NKJV)
Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. [we set Free from sin?]

1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV)
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [Before we are saved]
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I think reading the first 3 Epistle of 1 John, and considering these with scriptures we know, along with John's manner of banging The Truth home to us, I am thinking that what John is actually doing is:

- correcting wrong thinking amongst those he was writing to
- encouraging those he was writing to
- clarifying the need for repentance of sins
- emphasing the importance of The Truth
- confirming righteousness and unrighteousness
- confirming we are made righteous when we are saved
All of which includes us

1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

And finally explaining 'what we should aim for' Complete Righteousness

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If we think we are righteous, if we know we are righteous, we will aim for and always want to be righteous

If we think we are sinners we will sin

1 John 3:8 (NKJV)
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

A righteous person wants to BE CLEAN always, be without blot or spot which can marr His image in us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@B-A-C

Picking up on yesterdays chat brother, I feel the spirit telling me the assumption made yesterday is not right, John is not saying we are righteous, even though we may sin, to set a goal to look to. The trouble I feel in my heart is that we have been told so many times, we are sinners, even though we are saved, so we believe it.

Below is what I feel the Lord is saying, I share this with you for your comments my friend...

May the Spirit of the living God, guide your heart and mind, in Jesus Precious Name, Amen

First let us look at these scriptures mentioned so far from the Epistles...

1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV)
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [This is before we are saved]
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 3:9-11 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,


So many quote this scripture (on its own) to confirm as saved souls we are still 'sinners'

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[I believe, when considering the Epistles in full, this relates to - Before we are saved]


Because as John states when we are saved...

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[Born again - New Creation - Saved]


So if a Saved person says, they are/we are, sinners, they/we are literally saying we expecting to sin, because we are in the flesh. They are in effect 'connecting' themselves to the devil, that is not what John says, but we no longer belong to, sin, the world and the devil if we Walk in the Light.

If we are saved, we DO NOT SIN, we CANNOT SIN.

That is because...

1 John 3:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.


All sin, not just past sin.

We are washed in the blood of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:22-28 (NKJV)
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Ephesians 1:7 (NKJV)
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Hebrews 9:14-15 (NKJV)
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:22 (NKJV)
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Revelation 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 5:9 (NKJV)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. [Born again - Saved]

1 Peter 1:19-25 (NKJV)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.


John is saying WE ARE righteous, when we are Saved and Walk in the Light, 'AND' the blood of Christ 'Cleanses us' 'for ALL sin' ALL sin.

1 John 3:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. [Born again - Saved]

Because Christ Blood has cleansed us from 'ALL' sin.

We are covered by the blood of Christ when we are saved. When we Walk in the Light with Him who is the Light. PTL

- His blood was shed on the cross for our sins
- His blood 'protects us' from all evil (sin)
- His blood protects the Holy seed within us
- His blood protects, His Spirit, within us.

WE ARE SEALED (Providing we are truly saved and walk in the Light)

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[B-A-C]

I think we have to be careful here.

I've seen all this before... typically ultra Calvinists, Unitarians, and Antimonianists.

1 Jn 3:9; has caused church divisions, especially the King James version.

(MKJV) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
(MSG) People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.
(NAS77) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(ASV) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
(ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
(GNB) Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin.
(GW) Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God.
(KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The King James derivatives above make it sound like a Christian can never sin. However most other versions say they can't "practice" sinning. There is a big difference.
But if we say a Christian can never sin... that is taken a few different ways (there have been many threads on this here on TJ over the years).
1. A Christian can never sin... period. I have to be perfect. I can never lie, steal, covet, lust or murder. If I've ever done any of these things since becoming a Christian, I wasn't ever really saved.
2. Even if a Christian does "sin", God no longer considers it sin. It is just "bad behavior". This is the core of Unitarianism and Antimonianism.
..........a. The Unitarian/Universalist would say, Jesus did away with sin all-together and died to save the whole world. ( 1 Jn 1:7; 1 Jn 3:5; and 1 Jn 2:2; ) so NOBODY is going to hell, whether they believe in Jesus or not.
..........b. The Antimonianist would say the same thing, the only difference being... I have to at least believe in Jesus and His death, atonement for sin, and resurrection. Other than that I can sin all I want to.
3. Finally... it is just a Christian cannot "practice" or live a lifestyle of sinning all the time.

There is a danger of keying in on just one verse here.

But let us use the KJV here. I am removing the verse numbers for a reason here.

1 Jn 3:4-10; Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If we take this whole passage in context... it says we have to "doeth righteousness". It says if we "doeth not righteousness" we are not of God. It says that if we "commiteth sin" we are "of the devil".
So even King James emphasizes that we must do righteousness. King James also emphasizes "whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him".

1 Jn 2:3-5; And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

All of first John is about living righteously. We can't take one verse and say "this is the whole book".

There are verses that say Christians "DO" sin sometimes. Even in 1 John.

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

This verse is written to believers. "little children" isn't people who aren't teenagers yet. These are new Christians. They have "an advocate". Unbelievers don't have an advocate. Only Christians do.

Also there are many verses about going on and living in willful sin. (I can easily give a dozen, but running out of time here, so I will only include 1 )

Heb 10:26-27; For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greeting brother

Thank you for your detailed reply.

I am not seeing exactly what you are condemning, I am seeing things slightly different, allow me to explain.

First things first, let us discuss the scriptures but forget, ultra Calvinists, Unitarians, and Antimonianists views, for me they are not even in the picture, although it could be said you are pigeon holing them towards those beliefs. Back to scripture and the Epistles of John.

I am aware of the various version an differences and the word 'practicing' was one that stands out.

You mention the danger of keying into one verse, again that is what I am totally avoiding, we start off with the following two verses, I brought forward the whole Epistle to consider he context in the right light. The initial verses were...

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[I believe, when considering the Epistles in full, this relates to - Before we are saved]

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. [Born again - Saved]

So back now to the Full letters not single verses.

If we take this whole passage in context... it says we have to "doeth righteousness". It says if we "doeth not righteousness" we are not of God. It says that if we "commiteth sin" we are "of the devil".
So even King James emphasizes that we must do righteousness. King James also emphasizes "whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him".

I believe righteousness is the key word here, we are told as saved believers, we are to 'walk with Christ', we are righteous because He is Righteous. His Spirit, joins our spirit, when we repent and accept the Free Gift of Salvation, Jesus the Christ, our Lord. We become one in Him, His spirit lives in us, it is His Spirit that makes us righteous, nothing we have done other than repent and accept Him and agree to follow Him. On that basis and according to The Word we are to understand and accept we are righteous.

So what about a believer sinning?

When we accept Jesus all past sin is wiped away, remembered no more, we are like glass to God, nothing hidden at all. We know God hates sin and as the Spirit of Christ is in us, we will not want to sin. Now I feel if I think we are sinners, we are accepting we are going to sin, we are already half way to sinning. But if we realise we are righteous, we know sin is wicked, we know it is vile in God's sight, we know it will put a blot or stain on our wiped clean slate, we will not want to sin because we are righteous in Him.

So what happens if I do sin?

God knows our heart, He knows we will be truly sorry, probably more sorry that when all our sins were wiped away, we love Him, we realise even more how He hates sin as we walk daily with Jesus and learn from the scriptures.

We are cleansed from all sin, protected through the blood of Christ, we are is.

So why do we sin?

Because we are more tempted by the things we see than the things we don't. The devil is waiting, prowling like a roaring lion ready to devour us we say, true that is what scripture says. But if our emphasis is more on the world that God we are open to temptation.

That leads us to the key word regarding sin. Temptation.

We can never say, God let me do it, we can never say the devil told me to do it, we only have our self to blame when we sin. We didn't have to sin, we chose to sin.

We didn't have to commit adultery, we chose to, it may have started with eye contact or flirting but we allowed it, we could have stopped it.

We didn't have to steal that item, we chose to, there may of been a voice in the head saying do it, you can get away with it, but we didn't have to.

We didn't have to let pride get the better of us, we put ourself in that position, we chose to do so, we didn't have to.

This is where I believe we come back to 'Walk with Christ' If we are truly walking with Christ we are covered, we keep our eyes on Jesus, re rebuke the devil, we use the sword and the shield and all the armour He has given us, to protect us from the fiery darts of the devil, the devil is just the tempter, we are the doer, we don't have to sin.

I am righteous, as scripture tells me, my eyes are on Jesus not the world. If temptation comes, it does, it will, I am protected through the blood of Christ, I choose not to sin, when tempted I hit the stop button and think first. Now occasionally I could sin, but God knows what I will say before I say it, I am forgiven because Christ is in me, He knows I will come forward in true repentance because I have marred His image in me, because I have a spot or blotch on my clean slate, I will want to be clean, He knows this, I come to Him and I have forgiven.

As you mention brother some use the word perfect, we are not perfect, far from it, but we are righteous, proving we are truly saved and Walk with Jesus daily, taking u our cross daily and learning from him.

So the difference I see brother is nothing to do with the views of people with past ideas, it is based in scripture, we are righteous, we are not sinners, we practice righteousness, we do not practice sinning, as we practice our righteousness we may be tempted, we may at times sin, but He is loving and just and forgives the sin, but it doesn't make us sinners. If I practice righteousness, I will want to get nearer to the Lord, if I consider that I am a sinner, I am admitting Ok I will be tempted, the devil has me almost in the net before I start. If I practice righteousness my eyes are on Jesus the author and perfecter of my faith, my eyes are not on sin, the world and the devil, though in the world I must always be prepared.

The devil only tempts us! We have a choice. If we sin we chose to sin.

Joshua 1:89 (NIV2011)
9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Joshua 1:9 (NKJV)
9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go."

 

[B-A-C]

I agree with all you say above except one thing....

The old testament says our righteousness is like filthy rags, however this was written to people who didn't call upon the Lord or quit doing iniquities.

Isa 64:6; But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7; And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

I believe righteousness is the key word here, we are told as saved believers, we are to 'walk with Christ', we are righteous because He is Righteous.

I believe Jesus makes us righteous.. yes. But I believe OUR righteousness matters.

2 Jn 1:8; Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2 Jn 1:9; Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Jesus's righteous alone doesn't do it "all". It is possible for us to "lose what we have accomplished". It is possible to "go too far".

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

We can say we are Christians all day long, and we can say we love Jesus all we want to. We can claim God loves us all we want to (the love of God is NOT the salvation of God, God love unbelievers also)
But if we are obeying Hid word and practicing righteousness.... we are liars. Plain and simple.

Our righteousness.....

1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

Let no deceive you. People who practice righteousness.... ARE righteous. Just as Jesus is righteous. We aren't simply "righteous" just because Jesus is righteous.

1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In fact if we don't live righteously.... we are of the devil. Even while we are claiming to be Christians, and claiming God loves us.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I notice it doesn't say "unless MY righteousness"... it says "unless YOUR righteousness".

The righteousness of Christians matters. The righteousness of Christians... is NOT as filthy rags.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I agree with all you say above except one thing....

The old testament says our righteousness is like filthy rags, however this was written to people who didn't call upon the Lord or quit doing iniquities.

Isa 64:6; But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7; And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

We are under a New Covenant brother.

I believe Jesus makes us righteous.. yes. But I believe OUR righteousness matters.

2 Jn 1:8; Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2 Jn 1:9; Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Our Righteous really des matter, we are made righteous when we repent and accept Jesus into our heart. When we are born again, when we become a new creation, when we ask and accept Jesus into our hearts. The hour we first believed, the hour all our sins were wired free, the hour we were made new, the first hour of the rest of our life, here and in eternity.

Jesus's righteous alone doesn't do it "all". It is possible for us to "lose what we have accomplished". It is possible to "go too far".

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Once we are born again we have chose to follow Jesus, to take up our cross daily and follow Him. To Abide in Him and allow Him to abide in us. If we do those things we keep His Commandments, if we don't, we are a liar, if we say we do.

We can say we are Christians all day long, and we can say we love Jesus all we want to. We can claim God loves us all we want to (the love of God is NOT the salvation of God, God love unbelievers also)
But if we are obeying His word and practicing righteousness.... we are liars. Plain and simple.

We can say we are Christians all day long and not be born again, we can say we love him all day long, if it comes from the lips, and does not come from the heart, it is void. The Truth is not in us, we must be born again John 3:3,5,7 or we will not see the Kingdom of Heaven, we will not go to the Kingdom of Heaven.

>>> Not sure if you made an error in the last statement brother...
If we are obeying His Word and practicing Righteousness, we cannot be liars.
We are not obeying His Word if we are not born again. We are not obeying His Word if we say we are righteous. We are only made righteous when we are born again, after than we have to practice righteousness.

Our righteousness.....

1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

Let no deceive you. People who practice righteousness.... ARE righteous. Just as Jesus is righteous. We aren't simply "righteous" just because Jesus is righteous.

So true brother, we are only made righteous when we are born again and our past sins are wiped away to be remembered no more. Thanks be to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen

1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In fact if we don't live righteously.... we are of the devil. Even while we are claiming to be Christians, and claiming God loves us.

Those who claim to be Christian and are not born again are NOT Christians.
Some say, and single scripture verses state, call on the Lord and you will be saved, believe on the Lord and you will be saved.
Even John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

They have failed to read and understand John 3:3,5,7 In fact it is doubtful they have read and understood John 3:1-21 A must read for all.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I notice it doesn't say "unless MY righteousness"... it says "unless YOUR righteousness".

The righteousness of Christians matters. The righteousness of Christians... is NOT as filthy rags.

Amen brother Amen.