“Clearing up the Fallacies about going to Heaven”

[Stickz]

While this is not really something that I have put much study into, yet, I do have a few things to throw in here:

II Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The word 'hell' in this verse seems to be a different word in the Greek than all of the other uses of it. The word 'tartaroo' from 'Tartaros' ( the deepest abyss of Hades ); to incarcerate in eternal torment:- cast down to hell.

There are about twelve other verses in the New Testament where the word hell is the Greek word 'geenna' valley of ( the son of ) Hinnom; gehenna ( or Ge-hinnom ), a valley of Jerusalem used ( fig. ) as a name for the place ( or state ) of everlasting punishment:-hell. This valley was always afire, and was used for child sacrifice at times ( II Chronicles 33:1-6 ).

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It seems that many verses agree that there will be an everlasting fire, and it seems reasonable to me to believe that the fire that will burn continually forever would also have something remaining in it forever.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I think that we've always assumed that the thieves legs were broken to speed their deaths because we've always assumed that when Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise he had to have meant on that day. But when you read the verse just for what it says

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

why couldn't their legs have only been broken to keep them from running away, to later be placed back on the crosses? There is never any mention of their death or burial. Notice too that the Jews besought Pilate that their legs might be broken; If we are to assume that they broke them to speed their deaths, why did Pilate marvel over Jesus being dead already later when Joseph of Arimathaea came to ask for the body of Jesus? Wasn't that the expected result of breaking their legs?

Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

I'm not saying that there is enough evidence to support this idea, but I have learned not to just believe everything that I have heard all my life. Does it really matter one way or the other? Maybe not. I do enjoy dissecting all of the little details, never know what you might learn.

 

[Peace Seeker]

why couldn't their legs have only been broken to keep them from running away, to later be placed back on the crosses?

From what I've researched, legs were broken to rapidly speed up death. Breaking of the legs prevented the victim from pushing himself upward, thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred.

There is never any mention of their death or burial.

If I recall correctly, crucified victims were not given a burial. They were left on the cross to rot and/or disposed of in a common grave for criminals.

why did Pilate marvel over Jesus being dead already later when Joseph of Arimathaea came to ask for the body of Jesus? Wasn't that the expected result of breaking their legs?

I don't know, the bible doesn't tell us every word that may have been exchanged between Joseph of Arimathea and Pilate. Maybe Pilate's reaction was after Joseph of A told him that Jesus' legs weren't broken?

 

[jiggyfly]

If I recall correctly, crucified victims were not given a burial. They were left on the cross to rot and/or disposed of in a common grave for criminals.

Actually according to some of the historical writings many criminals were thrown onto Gehenna or Gehinnom the garbage dump right outside of Jerusalem.

 

[jiggyfly]

Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

I'm not saying that there is enough evidence to support this idea, but I have learned not to just believe everything that I have heard all my life. Does it really matter one way or the other? Maybe not. I do enjoy dissecting all of the little details, never know what you might learn.

He more than likely was surprised that Christ had died so quickly without His legs broken because crucifixion usually took 36 to 48 hours unless the legs were broken.

This just proves what Christ had said earlier.
No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded." John 10:18

 

[RJ]

So before this time no one has been raised from the dead, or continue to live forever.

Rev 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. We shall reign on the earth.


​

So before this time no one has been raised from the dead, or continue to live forever.

Ozell,
Please answer these 2 questions:

1.For the time being, just where is it do you think we go when we die in the flesh?

2. In the spirit world of God that exists now and we are going to, how would you relate time and space in the spirit world to what we have in the physical world of ours?

 

[Peace Seeker]

Actually according to some of the historical writings many criminals were thrown onto Gehenna or Gehinnom the garbage dump right outside of Jerusalem.

Yes, you are right! Although I knew they didn't get a proper burial, I had forgotten about Gehenna, which is a subject I have done some studying into.

 

[gdemoss]

The day of the crucifixion was a busy day for Pilate. First thing in the morning he has the Jews dragging Jesus to him for judgement. He spends time examining him during various periods of the day and reports back to the Jews his findings and inquires of them for more understanding. His wife comes to him and disturbs him worse speaking of the dreams she suffered because of Christ. Pilate seeks to let him go but cannot. After half the day is gone, he gives in to the Jews and sends Jesus to be crucified. Near immediately the whole city falls under darkness and the darkness lasts for 3 hours. If this isn't enough stress for a man in power to deal with there was a great earthquake that rent rocks in two as well as the veil of the temple. While he is trying to take all of this in, the Jews come seeking to have the legs of the condemned broken. And the darkness that was upon Jerusalem may have just ended within the hour. Jesus was already dead by the time the Jews asked the legs be broken. Pilate would summon a guard to do the deed and send him out. Next thing he knows Joseph of Aramathea is begging the body of Christ at sunset. Pilates reaction "He's dead already?".

So in the first scenario the legs are broken merely to keep condemned criminals from escaping and there is no reason to believe he should be dead yet. So Pilate marvels that he is.

In the second the legs are broken to hasten the death of the condemned and one should expect a more expedient death, yet Pilate marvels that he is dead already (up to three hours after he gave order to break legs).

The result. Inconclusive. First of all we are only given the details that orders were given to break the legs and that they be taken away. The Jews did this 'because' Jesus was already dead and they wanted all of the condemned removed from the crosses before the Sabbath began. The goal is empty crosses for the Sabbath. There first desire of a dead Jesus had already been secured. Whether or not death is the intended end this day for the other two we are not told. If Jesus actually told the one that he would be with him in paradise 'today', then we know that at least one of them died that day. In either case we are not given enough information to make a reasonable conclusion to the matter. Of course, one could go beyond the bible into the vast world of opinion and historical claims to try to rationalize a conclusion but I believe that to be dangerous.

The unsolved mysteries of the bible continue,

Gary

 

[brakelite]

If one is inclined to believe that the spirit of man is a seperate living entity apart from the body, the Jesus did not go to heaven that day, because He said, "into Thy hands Father I commit My Spirit". 3 days later He testified He had not yet gone to the Father.
If however one is inclined to believe that the spirit of man is the life force in the breath of man, the conclusion is the same. Jesus didn't go to heaven, or paradise, (being one and the same) that day. Therefore the question as to where the thief went is moot.

 

[Stickz]

I believe that when Jesus said, "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit," he was just saying that he was putting his trust in Him, even in the face of death. Trusting Him to raise him. But, before Jesus could ascend, he had to first descend. It was three days before Jesus ascended, and if one interprets 'paradise' as being Heaven then Jesus and the thief were not there together three days before. Unless, we consider that one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and he was referring to Heavenly time?

Since the word 'paradise' is not really used many times in scripture, perhaps, it has a different meaning than what is assumed? I don't have time right now to look into the Greek meaning of it .... I have played with the idea that Jesus meant that the thief would receive the Holy Ghost, and be with Him spiritually in that sense. There is a verse that says something like the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. The thief would not have necessarily had to have died that day for this theory to work either.

 

[ozell]

1Cor 6:1-3

1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Again people are always talking about saints this and saints that.

Do you not know that the saints are going to judge the world and the (evil) angels?

 

[ozell]

I mean how silly does it sounds when people say that I going to fly around heaven all day?

NO!

We are not going to heaven and if we should be so blessed to make the kingdom of God we will have jobs.

Even the apostles will have jobs because they will be saints.

Mat.19:27-28

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the regeneration (resurrection) when the Son of man (Jesus) sits on his throne, each apostle will sit on a throne also judging one of the tribes of Israel.


Everybody will have a job in the kingdom of God on earth.

 

[ozell]

who went to heaven first the thief(who did not go to heaven) or Jesus?

John 20:16-18

<SUP id=en-KJV-26884 class=versenum>16</SUP>Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

<SUP id=en-KJV-26885 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>17</SUP>Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. <SUP id=en-KJV-26886 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>18</SUP>Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her

Jesus did not ascend to the Father until much later.

 

[ozell]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Jesus is the only to ascend to heaven

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Jesus is the firstborn from the dead

so how did the thief beat the Lord to heaven?

how did the thief become the firstborn from the dead before Jesus?

 

[ozell]

God has a divine plan laid out, we are not dealing with a vain God.

Our God has a plan and he told you the end from the beginning but we won’t take heed.

Now we know that the promise of God is to set up his kingdom on earth and to have his saints sit with him and rule this kingdom.

Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23),

which Spirit-begotten Christians are to receive when resurrected or changed.

But what is the "reward" Jesus will bring with Him?

No one has yet to receive this reward, absolutely no one!

 

[ozell]

So before this time no one has been raised from the dead, or continue to live forever.

Ozell,
Please answer these 2 questions:

1.For the time being, just where is it do you think we go when we die in the flesh?

2. In the spirit world of God that exists now and we are going to, how would you relate time and space in the spirit world to what we have in the physical world of ours?

question one

lets read what is written and this is what I know.

Ecclesiastes 9


<SUP id=en-KJV-17479 class=versenum>3</SUP>This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
<SUP id=en-KJV-17480 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>4</SUP>For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. <SUP id=en-KJV-17481 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>5</SUP>For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


question 2

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Peter 3:8

in the spirit world of God

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

one day to man is a 1000 years to God

where is the relation between God and man in this sense.

 

[ozell]

Hebrews 11


<SUP id=en-KJV-30174 class=versenum>1</SUP>Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
<SUP id=en-KJV-30175 class=versenum>2</SUP>For by it the elders obtained a good report.

<SUP id=en-KJV-30181 class=versenum>8</SUP>By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

<SUP id=en-KJV-30205 class=versenum>32</SUP>And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


<SUP id=en-KJV-30212 class=versenum>39</SUP>And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
<SUP id=en-KJV-30213 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>40</SUP>God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Who is perfect but God?

That’s what God is doing he is recreating himself.

 

[ozell]

how could anyone be in heaven without us?

when Paul said in Hebrews 11 they( the faithful) without us shall be made perfect.

when will we be made perfect?

they of the faith chapter will not be made perfect without Paul at that time and without us.

where is the thief?
where is Elijah?
where is Enoch?

are they in heaven?

 

[ozell]

But we all get our reward at the same time.

Christ said that at His return He will reward all over comers—all who grow in the spiritual character of God.

Some will overcome and grow more than others, and Jesus said that He "will reward each according to his works"

Matthew 16
<SUP id=en-KJV-23700 class=versenum>27</SUP>For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Revelation 22:12

<SUP id=en-KJV-31093 class=versenum>12</SUP>And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[ozell]

God's saints will not be strumming on harps up in heaven for eternity.

Their destiny is infinitely more glorious and exciting!

The Bible reveals that the "reward of the saved" will be rulership of the earth with Jesus Christ after He returns


Revelation 2:26

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:21
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 5:10

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[ozell]

Jesus Christ and the resurrected Christians shall rule for 1,000 years \

Revelation 20:4-6

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


They will teach the nations God's way of life, which shall bring lasting peace, prosperity and joy to all mankind.