Rad said:

No you're not addressing the issue at all, i keep asking you specific questions about where you disagree and you just keep re-hashing the same old reply, so lets try a different approach, and could you please answer the questions in whatever form you choose. Thanks

OK question 1. You say "Christ says a rich man enters the kingdom with great difficulty", so Christ actually says, Luke 18:24-25 " How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God", so my question is ,"How hard is it for a Camel to go through a needle's eye", would you call that with "great difficulty" or impossible?.

Question 2 You say that i conclude " that every rich person is condemned". If we look at Luke 18: 24-25 again, here it is " How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God", Christ speaks of "How hardly shall they that have riches enter the Kingdom of God", does that mean ALL of the Rich, or does it mean some, or just a few, or most?, and then Christ says " For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God", again does that mean ALL of the Rich, or some, or a few, or most? And in Luke 6:24 Christ says " " Woe to you that are rich for you have received your consolation", does that mean ALL of the Rich, or some of them, or a few ,or most? And if you believe Christ only meant some, or a few or most and not ALL of the Rich are condemned, please explain why?.

You obviously didnt read my explanation as to Mark 10:23-25, but ill repeat it in the hope that this time you'll read it, here it is,
"OK lets turn to Marks Gospel, Mark 10:17-27, but with emphasis on verse 23-25, here they are ,
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
So we have the same words of condemnation of "The Rich" in verse 23, but in verse 24 Christ substitutes "The Rich" for " Those that trust in Riches" with the same condemnation, and follows up in verse 25 with The Camel and the Eye of the Needle illustrating how impossible it is, WITH MEN, for a "Rich man" to enter Heaven, the terms" The Rich" and "Those that trust in riches" are synonomous, that is why Christ mentioned both trust in Riches and the Rich. Why did he do this, probably for the same reason we're having this conversation now, he foresaw the efforts of sinful, greed driven humanity to say, its not my Riches that's the problem ,its my attitude towards them", and dispelled that myth with his words. And if you need further proof of Christs attitude to "The rich", those that "store up Treasure on Earth", then look no further than Matthew 6: 19-24, where Christ says " Do not store up Treasure on Earth, (do not become Rich), for where your Treasure is your heart will be also", there is no nuance about "attitude to riches", no talk of "trusting in Riches", just a straight "where your Treasure (Riches) is your heart will be also", and then the final line in verse 24" YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY", not its hard to serve God and money, not some find it hard to serve God and money, but a flat denial of the compatibility of possessing Riches and. serving God"
So Question 3 is, could you please explain where you disagree with my understanding of Christs words? Thanks,

And Question 4, if Christ had meant "trust in Riches", why do you believe theres no mention of that phrase in the story of the Rich Ruler in both Matthews and Lukes Gospel, just a blanket condemnation of "The Rich" as a whole?.

Again it appears that you didnt read my reply to your question, so here it is again, " So Christ says, "I say unto you .That a rich man shall hardly enter the Kingdom of Heaven", no mention of trusting or not trusting in riches, just "A Rich man", not some of the rich, or most of them, but "A Rich man", which means ALL OF THE RICH, there is no differentiation, then he says " a Rich man shall hardly enter the kingdom of Heaven", so its going to be very hard, almost impossible for "A Rich man to enter Heaven", Christ follows this up by illustrating that "It is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven", so we would view that as being impossible, but when questioned by the Disciples who say "Who then can be saved", Christ says "With men this is impossible but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE", You need to understand, but i feel you already do, that God is not constrained by the Commandments he places on his Creation. If God chose to take my life now, i couldnt say, " But Lord, you said "Do not Kill", .or if Christ drove out the Moneylenders from the temple, does that mean we can do the same?, GOD IS GOD, he is omnipotent and can do with his creation as he pleases, as the parable of the "Workers in the Vineyard " illustrates, if he chooses to save a Rich man that in no way negates Christ telling us that the Rich are condemned because of their possession of Riches.

So my question to you, question 5 is, "Do you believe that God is constrained by the same Commandments he gives to us or do you believe that God is free to act and thus to deal with his Creation as he sees fit?.

Did i ever say that "Poverty itself saves", if i did could you show me where i said that? thats question 6 by the way.

You say that " Christ never preached salvation by poverty." So let me give you 4 examples, Luke 6:20 "BLESSED ARE YOU POOR ,FOR YOURS IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD". then Luke 16:25 where Abraham gives the reason for Lazarus, the poor man, to be in heaven, while he, the Rich man, was in Hell, " ;But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." LAZARUS WAS IN HEAVEN BECAUSE HE RECEIVED "EVIL THINGS", he lived a life of poverty and suffering, now the story of Zacchaeus Luke 19:1-9, who was saved only after he had given his wealth away to the poor and those he'd wronged, as it says in verse 8 -9, " 8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. 9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham." his salvation was pronounced only after he had given his wealth away and became poor himself. and finally in Marks version of The Rich Ruler where in Mark 10 verse21 it says ";Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, "One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.", so Christ told him to sell all he had, become poor himself, but that would store up Treasure in heaven and ensure his salvation, but as it says in verse 22 " And he was sad at that saying and went away grieved, for he great possessions"

I've never said that poverty itself saves, i've quoted you what Christ says and my belief that its an essential prerequisite of Salvation, one of many, and conversely, the possession of riches is a barrier to Salvation, through which none will cross, except IF it be the will of God, "FOR WHOM ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE".

So the final question, question 7 is, Please detail where you disagree with my understanding of Christs teachings on Poverty being one of the many prerequisites for Salvation and conversely Riches being a barrier to Salvation?.

So i hope you'll answer my questions, in whatever form you want to, and we can make some progress in this discussion and not waste both of our time with continual repetition. Thanks

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Hannah1 said:

It is a simple question though, where in the scripture does God say there is different sin categories? and especially in NT

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Hannah1 said:

That`s clear talk.

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Christ4Ever said:

Yes, it is if you do not consider the question of how one enters the kingdom of God in the first place. Being rich makes it more difficult but not impossible, which is the same for a poor person, because one extreme or the other and everywhere in between, it's not by our own efforts or what you have or have not that one can enter therein, but only by Jesus Christ.

Sadly, riches provide a special spiritual impediment towards knowing Jesus, because one normally comes humbly to Him, knowing the sinners that we are and so our deficiencies are laid bare. The more you have, the less dependent on anyone else you are. Self-reliance is now how one comes to anyone one, much less Jesus.

Remember, "For all have fallen short of the Glory of God". Doesn't matter your social status, racial configuration, or what have you. Without Jesus, you're not getting in!

As a thought Suppose riches did in fact keep you out even with Jesus. Rich compared to who, what, and where? Don't know anyone being Solomon rich even in these days of extremes! Yet it wasn't his riches that brought about his fall, but rather fooling around with other gods, through the myriads of wives he had trying to please, when he should have had only one! I was blessed with one and I found it hard to imagine having as many as he did! I barely kept my mind with one...plenty of knee time, I'll tell you that for sure! lol

So, it still remains that "rich", has a different connotation depending on where one is, don't you think? You could have all the gold in the world, but if you're stuck in a desert with no water, and here comes a fella with a boda bag full of nice cool water. Who's the rich one now??? A story/parable to look at would be the "the Pearl of Great Price". Then again chapter 13 in Matthew has a few parables that should be considered too!

The Brother makes some valid points, but his reductionist perspective overlooks the broader context and the full scope of scripture in his discussion.

God bless sister.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

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Twistie said:

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Christ4Ever said:

Yes, it is if you do not consider the question of how one enters the kingdom of God in the first place. Being rich makes it more difficult but not impossible, which is the same for a poor person, because one extreme or the other and everywhere in between, it's not by our own efforts or what you have or have not that one can enter therein, but only by Jesus Christ.

Sadly, riches provide a special spiritual impediment towards knowing Jesus, because one normally comes humbly to Him, knowing the sinners that we are and so our deficiencies are laid bare. The more you have, the less dependent on anyone else you are. Self-reliance is now how one comes to anyone one, much less Jesus.

Remember, "For all have fallen short of the Glory of God". Doesn't matter your social status, racial configuration, or what have you. Without Jesus, you're not getting in!

As a thought Suppose riches did in fact keep you out even with Jesus. Rich compared to who, what, and where? Don't know anyone being Solomon rich even in these days of extremes! Yet it wasn't his riches that brought about his fall, but rather fooling around with other gods, through the myriads of wives he had trying to please, when he should have had only one! I was blessed with one and I found it hard to imagine having as many as he did! I barely kept my mind with one...plenty of knee time, I'll tell you that for sure! lol

So, it still remains that "rich", has a different connotation depending on where one is, don't you think? You could have all the gold in the world, but if you're stuck in a desert with no water, and here comes a fella with a boda bag full of nice cool water. Who's the rich one now??? A story/parable to look at would be the "the Pearl of Great Price". Then again chapter 13 in Matthew has a few parables that should be considered too!

The Brother makes some valid points, but his reductionist perspective overlooks the broader context and the full scope of scripture in his discussion.

God bless sister.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

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Hannah1 said:

And then we have the judgement day.. where Jesus divide the sheep and the black sheep.. saying what have you done for me and then goes for I was naked, I was hungry etc. and ends, what you have done for them you have done for me. can you get in to heaven by living in sin really living in it and not care for your fellow men? that is not caring about Jesus and the gospel. So if you have lived a life being rich and not caring about your fellow men, when you could have done SOMETHING, that is living in sin. And Paul states if you keep LIVING in sin you are worse than the heathen.

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Hannah1 said:

That is what happened to the rich man by the way, before he met Jesus

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Hannah1 said:

We will be forgiven, if we repent, and repent means turning from sin. It does not mean living sin free, but it means not LIVING in it either. Like let go not care not make an effort. Not just saying a prayer and live like the heathen.

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Christ4Ever said:

Which is the real point of it all isn't it? Before Jesus, one can say that there is an excuse for not doing for others and coming to Jesus a bit harder for that person as I mentioned in my other post, though none have an excuse anyway! Abit once in Christ Jesus, our actions should go hand in hand with our profession of faith, since that is purpose of who we are in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:10) (James 2:17-18)

So, a professing believer who has riches and "won't" use it to benefit others, and in some cases fail to take care of their own as well; I'd question if they truly believed as they say they do. Enough examples that there are those amongst us, who are not of us. Chaff if you will. Not to go too far afield, it's not the riches that condemn us, but our failure to use them towards the growing of the Kingdom of God. Anyone to say that riches are wrong, and condemning in and of themselves, makes for an untrue statement. For God uses it through us to have His will done in this life. After all, in my mentioning of Soloman was, to also show that when he prayed to God initially, he only asked to govern God's people wisely. It was God who gave him riches and everything else. So, was it wrong of God to do so?

This however, the works that we do, are not what is going to save us, but a reflection of the very faith in Christ Jesus, given by God, that does. (Ephesians 2:8-9) That is why I find the fear and trembling in working out our salvation a more interesting verse to contemplate on which if we are rich might be something one won't want to have because it would just add to the equation to consider on top of everything else too! (Heavy sigh) For then how much should I keep, to have to help family vs give away to help those in more dire straits? I guess you can give all that you have away and live on the generosity of others...it's not the riches, but the use thereof that makes a difference.

Most times we as believers, fail to consider the very Holy Spirit within us, who will convict us of our actions! He does it to me all the time. I have the knots on the back of my head to prove it! lol So, we have the very help already there, but few seek Him out for guidance and help in dealing with these types of situations. We try to go it alone, which of course leads us back to the rich man and what it all meant to him...

To encapsulate it all, I'll end with: True faith in Christ is proven not by the mere possession of riches or a verbal profession of faith, but by the Spirit empowered use of whatever God has entrusted to us for the good of others, the care of one’s own, and the advance of His Kingdom. All the while remembering that those same works never save us but only reflect the grace that already has.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

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Hannah1 said:

It is clear as day that even though we are not saved by works, our works to help those He created and other things we do for the better for all, the planet and animals is needed, as He said to me you are all I have. Be my feet and hands meaning the evil does not do far as much and He wants to work through us. Also pointed out the others are his children and He wants to work through us. It is clear that we should do what we CAN. No matter small or big. yes we fail but that we keep trying and our intent.. After what I understand it to pay what you have to pay and food and all and get SOME for you, but to the point of comfortable not excess at least not all the time and the rest to others that is how I understand it. As well as yes you can save too but not so you don`t do what you can to help. Depends on intent.
I have never had large amounts it always goes to just live. My bills are high, but him and me have an agreement, help where I can. Personally I have too much empathy with others to just not do anything. I`m the type sit and cry hearing how others suffer.

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Christ4Ever said:

I know what you mean. I see those with signs walking the mediums, and I give. While others shake their heads at me doing so. The Lord doesn't tell me to give to the worthy, but to all in need. Now I don't know how much those I give to are really in any dire straits or are just feeding habits. Not my call to make. I give in the name of Jesus, when time allows as I pass them a trac/money and also witness. One young man even said to me he wasn't like those others who were looking to score money for drugs/smokes. He was a believer in Jesus who just came upon hard times. I told him as I was pulling away, maybe he was there to give those I or others couldn't reach the Gospel, because they'd listen to him. As I pulled away, I could see the shock on his face in the side mirror, because it had never occurred to him that might be the very reason he was there!!! lol The joy of the Lord Sister, no matter where you happen to be at! Like Paul who shared the Gospel with the Roman guards he was chained to that were set to watch him, in the house of Ceasar to believers. Who knows how far that spread there to even further allow the Gospel to be spread and change a pagan Rome, to a Christian one.

Just keep running the race sister!!!

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

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