Jonathan_Gale said:

The pre-trib teaching as a whole is dumb. They keep telling and assuring us that we'll be "out of here" right before the tribulation, but they never specify how that will happen. Not even any remote suggestion or wild guess.

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The pre trib rapture is when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17 In that day note verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, He will judge what the believer has on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ and of any remain in iniquity still will be judged as that wood, stubble, and hay will be burned off of that foundation and the body will perish per verses 16-17 but the spirit is saved per verse 15.

This is why Jesus warned the 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation to repent or else as He warned one of those five churches in Revelation 2:18-25 that they would be cast into the bed of the great tribulation while assuring those who held fats in the 2 of the 7 churches He was exhorting would miss out on the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth to receive the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive or not in that coming New World Order in Revelation 3:7-11

Paul confirms the running of that race is to obtain that crown mentioned in Revelation 3:11 or else become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Jonathan_Gale said:

And based on "meeting the Lord in the air", it gives you a false impression that we might be "ascending" into heaven like Jesus did on Mount Olive. While it is true that the Two Witnesses will ascend in that manner (Rev. 11:12), there's no guarantee that all God's people will be raptured like that. And by the way, that ascension of the Two Witnesses takes place at the end of the 3.5 year period, not anywhere before that.

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There is tribulation for what we are living in now with the falling away from the faith and then there is the great tribulation after the rapture event.

The rapture will happen before that great tribulation for His warning to take place as casting those into the bed of the coming great tribulation for not being ready to go because they did not depart from iniquity & still in it when He comes.

Jonathan_Gale said:

This teaching has made huge negative impact to a lot of churches, under its influence, lots of people are disengaged from the fight with spiritual darkness and putting their hope on this rapture that could happen at "anytime" in the twinkling of an eye, I've heard it several times that this rapture could even happen before the end of this sermon!

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They should be trusting Him as their Good Shepherd and Friend to help them lay aside every weight & sin Hebrews 12:1-2 in order to be following Him, thus walking in the light and not darkness in fellowship with the Father & the Son. 1 John 1:3-9

If you consider how bad it will be at the end of the great tribulation when during that whole time, the beast waging war on the saints and killing them with the sword and starvation because they cannot buy & sell unless they have the mark, then how can anyone ever be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would be tempted NOT to leave this life to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven in when the Bridegroom comes? Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

So a lot of believers that believe in the rapture, believes every saved believer will be taken but no because that is when God will judge His House first, excommunication those not found abiding in Him to give them unto Satan literally for the destruction of the flesh verses 16-17 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 where their spirits will be saved verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 as their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation. Revelation 8:9-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This excommunication has to be done for the Marriage Supper to be held in sincerity and in truth in Heaven for why judgment will fall on the House of God first.

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

What the church failed to do in excommunicating members to lead them to repentance, God will do and finish His work in those saints left behind by burning off of that foundation all that offends so they may be partakers of His holiness.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what running that race is all about in getting ready for the Bridegroom to avoid the scourging from the Father as those left behind are still saved and will be given stripes so they will never do those sins or iniquities ever again.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Regardless of any believer that beleives in the rapture or don't believe in the rapture, if they are not found abiding in Him but are in iniquity, they shall be left behind when the Bridegroom comes.

Any saved believer that thinks it is okay to live in sin or thinking you will repent tomorrow, you better repent NOW because He can come at any moment. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God in being left behind.

Curtis said:

Premature death is a possible reality for those who give place to the devil.

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True, but also this can occur at the rapture event for why saved believers still in unrepentant iniquity as well as former believers, can be left behind to die. See post # 41 above.

The first 12 seconds of the video is something I can really dislike, when people talk about our responsibility as being work, the guy is trying to complicate a very simple thing, the bible says repent. the timing of all these things does not matter,
For example, I say I believe in Jesus and want to go to heaven, but have no desire to stop sinning that is not true belief. For those that truly believe in Jesus, you will keep his commandments and it will not be burdensome to you. You may stumble and you will be convicted and repent.

Grace and faith, belief all come with evidence of how you live. Repentance true repentance is that evidence also of saving grace in your life. IMO

Must a person forsake his sins before he can come to Christ? .............not 100% sure what you mean by "come to Christ"​

We all come to Christ as sinners, everyone needs to repent you can come to Christ without repenting, but if you do not repent soon afterwords will you be saved? I don't think so... you can repent and come to Christ but that really seems like splitting hairs to me, when you learn about Christ hopefully that leads you to repentance it's a process of sanctification.

Luke 13:3​

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Dave M said:

The first 12 seconds of the video is something I can really dislike, when people talk about our responsibility as being work, the guy is trying to complicate a very simple thing

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Exactly!! Good morals are not a work.
Obeying the commandments are not a work. Obeying God is not a work.
Repentance isn't a work. It's just what you're supposed to do.

Luke 17:9; "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Sacrificing animals, confessing to priests, circumcision, those are works.

1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hebrews 12:14
(AMPC) Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
(BBE) Let your desire be for peace with all men, and to be made holy, without which no man may see the Lord;
(CSB) Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord.
(ESV) Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
(GNB) Try to be at peace with everyone, and try to live a holy life, because no one will see the Lord without it.
(GW) Try to live peacefully with everyone, and try to live holy lives, because if you don't, you will not see the Lord.
(HCSB) Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord.
(ISV) Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
(KJV) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(MKJV) Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord;
(NAS77) Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
(NAS95) Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
(NET) Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord.
(NIrV) Try your best to live in peace with everyone. Try to be holy. Without holiness no one will see the Lord.
(NIV) Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
(NKJV) Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
(NLT) Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.
(RV) Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:

Luke 1:74; To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear,
Luke 1:75; In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I agree we can't do these things on our own before we are believers. But after we accept Jesus, we should living in holiness and righteousness.

Let us say you have a job. Your job is to make gum drops.
You get paid for making gum drops. If you don't make gum drops.. you don't get paid. If you never make any gum drops, chances are you wont keep your job very long.

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

But there are policies in force at the place you work. No cursing, no drinking, no drugs, no violence, no harrassing other workers, etc...

You don't get paid anything extra for obeying these policies. It's just what you are expected to do. Even though you don't get paid for doing them, you can get fired for not abiding by the rules.

Obeying the rules is not your job (work).. but you are still expected to do it.

B-A-C said:

Exactly!! Good morals are not a work.
Obeying the commandments are not a work. Obeying God is not a work.
Repentance isn't a work. It's just what you're supposed to do.

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Right, except we can call it works too, except it is Spirit and Life and not heavy and not burdensome.

B-A-C said:

Luke 17:9; "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Sacrificing animals, confessing to priests, circumcision, those are works.

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Right, those are the works the people used to have to do to purify themselves, they had to live everyday by being circumcised, eating a special diet, doing various external baths in case you sat where someone unclean sat or if an unclean person touched you or if you had certain body fluids released, and you had to have animal blood sacrificed and observe special days.

Grace is faith that Jesus' blood does all those things for you now as well as your obedience to his Word.

B-A-C said:

I agree we can't do these things on our own before we are believers. But after we accept Jesus, we should living in holiness and righteousness.

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Right, we come to Jesus by confessing our sins to him and repenting of our sins, we tell Jesus we crucify ourselves to sin with him on the cross and believe his blood purifies us and that we will live to please him by obeying him.

Repentance ( Must a person forsake his sins before he can come to Christ? )​

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Absolutely Not, in fact Jesus the Saviour of His People saves His People from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

That word from is the greek word apo :

of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...
2. of separation of a part from the whole

apó, apo'; a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):

So Jesus saves His People away from their sins. Isnt that wonderful News ?

Dave M said:

The first 12 seconds of the video is something I can really dislike, when people talk about our responsibility as being work, the guy is trying to complicate a very simple thing, the bible says repent. the timing of all these things does not matter,
For example, I say I believe in Jesus and want to go to heaven, but have no desire to stop sinning that is not true belief. For those that truly believe in Jesus, you will keep his commandments and it will not be burdensome to you. You may stumble and you will be convicted and repent.

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So glad when I meet people who understand the falseness of faith alone.

When you say though that it is not true belief if someone believes in Jesus but does not stop sinning eventually....I have met many people who claim they believe and are saved but they live their lives sinning as always, because they were taught faith only and if you do believe more than that then it is a damnable works salvation, and they are also taught that no one can really ever stop sinning.

The reason I am speaking to you about this, even though it sounds like you already understand that we have to repent of our sins, is because the faith alone believers of a certain sect have a little twist to try make their faith alone to get saved doctrine sound right.

They don't understand how ignorant what they believe still is.
This is what they say, they say faith alone does save and we do not repent of our sins to get saved but that if they don't start obeying and stop sinning later, then they weren't really saved and that their faith wasn't real faith.

Can you believe that little twist some sects teach to keep the faith alone false teaching?

Getting saved isn't by faith alone and then a wait and see if you do obey and then your faith alone was the real true saving faith.

No, faith alone is dead and cannot save period.

Dave M said:

Grace and faith, belief all come with evidence of how you live. Repentance true repentance is that evidence also of saving grace in your life. IMO

Must a person forsake his sins before he can come to Christ? .............not 100% sure what you mean by "come to Christ"​

We all come to Christ as sinners, everyone needs to repent you can come to Christ without repenting, but if you do not repent soon afterwords will you be saved? I don't think so... you can repent and come to Christ but that really seems like splitting hairs to me, when you learn about Christ hopefully that leads you to repentance it's a process of sanctification.

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When a person wants to be saved, they actually come to the throne where Jesus is, in heaven.


Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,


Then the person confesses their sins to Jesus, and they repent of them and tell Jesus they die to the sins of the world.
Thousand of angels rejoice when that happens.

Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

When a person comes to Jesus to be saved, they confess and repent of their sins and they promise to die to the sins of the world and live to please Jesus by obeying him.

They believe Jesus' blood shed on the cross washes them clean, and they call on Jesus to live in them, to give them his Spirit.

At that time, the person is born again like a new born baby without any sins, they are perfect and holy and now they live their life living up to that, as they work out their salvation by training themselves.

Dave M said:

Luke 13:3​

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

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Exactly! It isn't a have faith now and not perish and repent of sins later.
It is believe that you have to obey Jesus and repent of yours and you won't perish.

Dave M said:

The first 12 seconds of the video is something I can really dislike, when people talk about our responsibility as being work, the guy is trying to complicate a very simple thing, the bible says repent. the timing of all these things does not matter,
For example, I say I believe in Jesus and want to go to heaven, but have no desire to stop sinning that is not true belief. For those that truly believe in Jesus, you will keep his commandments and it will not be burdensome to you. You may stumble and you will be convicted and repent.

Grace and faith, belief all come with evidence of how you live. Repentance true repentance is that evidence also of saving grace in your life. IMO

Must a person forsake his sins before he can come to Christ? .............not 100% sure what you mean by "come to Christ"​

We all come to Christ as sinners, everyone needs to repent you can come to Christ without repenting, but if you do not repent soon afterwords will you be saved? I don't think so... you can repent and come to Christ but that really seems like splitting hairs to me, when you learn about Christ hopefully that leads you to repentance it's a process of sanctification.

Luke 13:3​

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

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Please note that Jesus is not talking about sinners but saved believers in being fruitful by living a life of repentance. I connect "also" in verse 6 of the parable as expounding on the first five verses as to what that repentance was to avoid.

Luke 13:1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


If a saved believer is not living a life of repentance by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping them to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race, they risk being cut off & becoming castaways as in left behind to die ( perish ) where they will be scourged by the Father with stripes for not being ready.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Sinners can come to Jesus with their sins for Him to deliver them from their sins to no longer live in them because that is His PURPOSE and not just offer salvation.

Saved believers after salvation are to be discipled in trusting the Lord in helping them to follow Him by abiding in Him & His words so they will be fruitful as His disciples and avoid being left behind to perish.

B-A-C said:

Exactly!! Good morals are not a work.
Obeying the commandments are not a work. Obeying God is not a work.
Repentance isn't a work. It's just what you're supposed to do.

Luke 17:9; "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

Click to expand...

For them to be slaves, they have to have been saved first, brother.

I testify that sinners walk away from Jesus because the thief is at the door demanding that which was never demanded from Him in the first place when the only requirement for salvation is to believe in Him thus repenting from unbelief.

Then with Jesus Christ in them, they can be discipled to live a life of repentance by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

If repenting from sins is required at salvation for you to be saved and you are still repenting from sins afterwards, then when are you saved? Where is your assurance of salvation if you are still repenting from sins before you can be saved?

@God's Truth I ask you in according to your belief if there is any emphasis on continuing repenting from sins to keep yourself saved? Yes or no should suffice.

God's Truth said:

Jesus and are not obeying him.

Maybe you can think about it more.
Should I make a thread just about the reward, because it might get long?

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Yes please.

B-A-C said:

Let us say you have a job. Your job is to make gum drops.
You get paid for making gum drops. If you don't make gum drops.. you don't get paid. If you never make any gum drops, chances are you wont keep your job very long.

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

But there are policies in force at the place you work. No cursing, no drinking, no drugs, no violence, no harrassing other workers, etc...

You don't get paid anything extra for obeying these policies. It's just what you are expected to do. Even though you don't get paid for doing them, you can get fired for not abiding by the rules.

Obeying the rules is not your job (work).. but you are still expected to do it.

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Ok, I understand what you are saying.

You a drawing a distinction between keeping the law (not sinning) and walking in the purpose that God has for your (good works).
And I hear you saying that some look at those who keep the law or do certain actions (repentance, etc) and think it is a "good work".
But you are saying that such things are not good works.

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

Jesus_is_LORD said:

Yes please.

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GodB4Us said:

Please note that Jesus is not talking about sinners but saved believers in being fruitful by living a life of repentance. I connect "also" in verse 6 of the parable as expounding on the first five verses as to what that repentance was to avoid.

Luke 13:1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


If a saved believer is not living a life of repentance by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping them to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race, they risk being cut off & becoming castaways as in left behind to die ( perish ) where they will be scourged by the Father with stripes for not being ready.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Sinners can come to Jesus with their sins for Him to deliver them from their sins to no longer live in them because that is His PURPOSE and not just offer salvation.

Saved believers after salvation are to be discipled in trusting the Lord in helping them to follow Him by abiding in Him & His words so they will be fruitful as His disciples and avoid being left behind to perish.

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Thank God the Jesus of scripture, saves His People from their sins. He put in all the work for them !

GodB4Us said:

The pre trib rapture is when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17 In that day note verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, He will judge what the believer has on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ and of any remain in iniquity still will be judged as that wood, stubble, and hay will be burned off of that foundation and the body will perish per verses 16-17 but the spirit is saved per verse 15.

This is why Jesus warned the 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation to repent or else as He warned one of those five churches in Revelation 2:18-25 that they would be cast into the bed of the great tribulation while assuring those who held fats in the 2 of the 7 churches He was exhorting would miss out on the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth to receive the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive or not in that coming New World Order in Revelation 3:7-11

Paul confirms the running of that race is to obtain that crown mentioned in Revelation 3:11 or else become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There is tribulation for what we are living in now with the falling away from the faith and then there is the great tribulation after the rapture event.

The rapture will happen before that great tribulation for His warning to take place as casting those into the bed of the coming great tribulation for not being ready to go because they did not depart from iniquity & still in it when He comes.

They should be trusting Him as their Good Shepherd and Friend to help them lay aside every weight & sin Hebrews 12:1-2 in order to be following Him, thus walking in the light and not darkness in fellowship with the Father & the Son. 1 John 1:3-9

If you consider how bad it will be at the end of the great tribulation when during that whole time, the beast waging war on the saints and killing them with the sword and starvation because they cannot buy & sell unless they have the mark, then how can anyone ever be ensnared by the cares of this life that they would be tempted NOT to leave this life to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven in when the Bridegroom comes? Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

So a lot of believers that believe in the rapture, believes every saved believer will be taken but no because that is when God will judge His House first, excommunication those not found abiding in Him to give them unto Satan literally for the destruction of the flesh verses 16-17 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 where their spirits will be saved verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 as their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation. Revelation 8:9-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This excommunication has to be done for the Marriage Supper to be held in sincerity and in truth in Heaven for why judgment will fall on the House of God first.

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

What the church failed to do in excommunicating members to lead them to repentance, God will do and finish His work in those saints left behind by burning off of that foundation all that offends so they may be partakers of His holiness.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what running that race is all about in getting ready for the Bridegroom to avoid the scourging from the Father as those left behind are still saved and will be given stripes so they will never do those sins or iniquities ever again.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Regardless of any believer that beleives in the rapture or don't believe in the rapture, if they are not found abiding in Him but are in iniquity, they shall be left behind when the Bridegroom comes.

Any saved believer that thinks it is okay to live in sin or thinking you will repent tomorrow, you better repent NOW because He can come at any moment. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God in being left behind.

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Thanks for taking your time to write all these, but to be honest, none of these really means anything unless a clear definition of “rapture” can be given. Nowhere in the Bible says that true believers will suddenly disappear altogether, that’s Hollywood version. The most likely scenario is that we’ll all be dead for refusing to take the Mark, thus the church will be gone when the wrath of God is poured out, but that’s not a good sales pitch, is it.

B-A-C said:

Let us say you have a job. Your job is to make gum drops.
You get paid for making gum drops. If you don't make gum drops.. you don't get paid. If you never make any gum drops, chances are you wont keep your job very long.

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

But there are policies in force at the place you work. No cursing, no drinking, no drugs, no violence, no harrassing other workers, etc...

You don't get paid anything extra for obeying these policies. It's just what you are expected to do. Even though you don't get paid for doing them, you can get fired for not abiding by the rules.

Obeying the rules is not your job (work).. but you are still expected to do it.

Click to expand...

good point, Brother

the Lord blesses those who seek Him with a true heart, and sometimes these blessings manifest in things we share with others.


Bless you ....><>

Greetings @God's Truth

God's Truth said:

This is the false doctrine of faith alone taught by many to many people.

It is a sad thing in deed that many are hindered from getting saved and knowing God better.

The man said it would be a works salvation if a person repented of their sins to get saved.

He goes against the way to get saved.

He wasn't taught by Jesus in the Bible to believe like that, he was taught by Lutherans, and Calvinists, and sects from them.

Luther and Calvin misunderstood Paul when he says not of works.

Paul was speaking of the works of the law, which are the purification works, which circumcision is the sign.

People misunderstood Paul even in the New Testament times.

Peter says the people who misunderstand Paul are unstable and unlearned and they misunderstand other scriptures too, then he warns us to obey. See 2 Peter 3.

James heard of the false belief too, and he calls the people foolish and explains how faith alone is dead and can't save anyone, he even goes on to explain that even demons believe and do something, they shudder. He also teaches the right actions Abraham did and even Rahab.

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God's Truth said:

He also teaches the right actions Abraham did and even Rahab.

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Why did they do as they did?
That might be a good place to understand much more?

why did they?


Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear said:

good point, Brother

the Lord blesses those who seek Him with a true heart, and sometimes these blessings manifest in things we share with others.


Bless you ....><>

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Yes because those who seek the True God with a True heart of Faith, they have been sought by God beforehand and made a new creature with given a new heart, because men by nature dont seek the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God's Truth said:

The reward, the gift, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all one thing and that is eternal life in the kingdom of God.

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Greetings,

is 'the Promise' the same?

If you think 'yes', are you sure?

Does the Promise, promise those things?
Did 'the Promise' Who is the Anointed One, God's Word, with Whom there is no variableness, nor shadow of turning, become flesh and lay down His life that we, who were in darkness, rebellious and sinners, might have Life, Resurrection Life at His Coming? (according to The Promise given to all who hear.

Let us preach only truth, that God's name be exalted and all glory be given to Him, for He is faithful that promised. He also will bring it to pass.
Judgement is His and for us, let us redeem the time and so walk in Love, as He walked, leaving us an example, that we may enter in.

I sometimes wonder how many would fare better than Job, if the LORD would demand of us, questions we have never fathomed, the depths thereof hidden from those who refuse to see His glory, and His faithfulness, but revealed to those who love Him.

Let us not be experts in what we only as yet see dimly, as in a glass, only polished by man, but let us be found good stewards, ministering that which has been promised to us, if we be found faithful at His coming.


Bless you ....><>