Repentance ( Must a person forsake his sins before he can come to Christ? )

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Sounds a bit flowery. And overlooking some severe grief for being left behind.

I agree that there will be different rewards but it is not touching on how some unrepentant saints & former believers that will be left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture will get punishments too.

They will be damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House as they will not be like the vessels unto honor that are like the angels that never die and never marry and have a mansion in the House of God, but they will be marrying, and only the power of the second death will not be over them but is that inferring that the power of the first death still does? While the vessels of dishonor, the vessels of wood & earth, will be serving the King of kings on earth from all over the world and although they will be visiting the City of God on earth to partake of the tree of life for the healing of the nations, it is when death & hell is cast into the lake of fire is when they will never die any more.

Those left behind will get stripes for the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes per the lack of knowledge they had for not being ready. Luke 12:37-39 The Father will scourge them for not resisting sin Hebrews 12:3-11. The stripes is something I see as given so they will never commit those sins ever again. It is scourged out of them in the same way that the iniquity as wood, stubble, and hay is burned out of them to be partakers of His holiness.

That is why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth, as those who did not depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) will become castaways 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 & John 15:1-8.

Those vessels unto dishonor are also shall be known as the least in the kingdom of heaven for breaking even the least of His commandment and teaching others so per Matthew 5:19

In the address of the 7 churches in Revelation, five were warned to repent or else while two were exhorted to hold fast or else, but when it says at the end of each address, beginning with "11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh...." I believe that is referring to those saints who get left behind for not repenting or holding fast as Jesus is the One that will overcome for them and so you can see some of the rewards for those saints left behind there.

There will be a loss and it will be felt keen as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as the prodigal son cannot get his first inheritance back after having spent it on wild living but he is still son and a robe and ring was placed on him as a celebration will come about hence God will perform a miracle by wiping the tears from their eyes to get past that loss thus the rewards & celebration coming will help the get passed that loss.

So in that sense, they will be happy for the Lord will make them happy in spite of being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth in raising up the generations following.

Regardless, I do not care to get left behind as I do hope in Him to perfect that which concerns me so I will have more reasons to praise Him in Heaven for.

I don't want to get left behind either.

In your belief, do you believe the those who are left behind
( which makes me believe that you are in the pre-trib Rapture camp )
are ALL damned?

Or will there be some saved and called to Christ in the great tribulation
as defined as the wrath of God poured out on this earth?

Just a question seeking to understand your position,
not making a statement to articulate my position.

 

[*Lavender]

With the great tribulation, the bible mentions Saints on the earth. Probably many unbelievers will repent and turn to Christ. Also many will not.
I dont know if it will be a pretribulation rapture or not but inclined to think that there will be.
If any children of God remain on the earth, then they cannot lose their eternal salvation. That wouldnt be an eternal gift otherwise.

 

[God's Truth]

So this is slightly related but slightly off topic,

but since we are talking about rewards.

What do you think @Godbehonored , @GodB4Us , @God's Truth ,
that these rewards will consist of?

Obviously we don't now ( I think, we don't), but has the Holy Spirit revealed
to any of you, or do Bible verses give us a glimpse, or do you
have any thoughts on what these rewards will be in heaven?

Thanks, love and God bless. Hope you all get great rewards.

Slightly related ( I know some don't support Piper's Calvinistic views, but for this
just focus on this response as you look at the question above)

The reward, the gift, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all one thing and that is eternal life in the kingdom of God.

 

[God's Truth]

With the great tribulation, the bible mentions Saints on the earth. Probably many unbelievers will repent and turn to Christ. Also many will not.
I dont know if it will be a pretribulation rapture or not but inclined to think that there will be.
If any children of God remain on the earth, then they cannot lose their eternal salvation. That wouldnt be an eternal gift otherwise.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

The reward, the gift, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all one thing and that is eternal life in the kingdom of God.

Say more please,

You say it is all one thing, are you sure?

If it is all one thing, how can one receive more eternal life than another?

For example the parable of the talents with various rewards given,
and the other parable with they were given different number of cities to rule
over. Are you saying in your interpretation that parable is simply relating to
eternal life, and not some reward that we will get in heaven?

I think about this verse:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
1 Corinthians 3:-11-15

My understanding of that verse is that there those who are saved, however there are things
that they are doing "for Christ" which does not have Jesus as the foundation, and they will
not be rewarded in heaven for (I'm asking what is this reward). For example, someone gives
to the homeless but brags about it, they give to boast and Christ was not the foundation,
so they will not get a reward

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others.
Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." - Matthew 6:2

But if I understand you correctly you are saying the reward is all the same, eternal life?
However these verses seem to separate salvation from the rewards, as being something
extra, as it speaks of some getting rewards and losing their rewards but still being saved.

Do you see that as well? Read the verse again that I shared and let me know your interpretation.

Thanks.
You may add as well @Lavenderfields and @GodB4Us and @Godbehonored , your thoughts
on those verses above.

Thanks.

 

[GodB4Us]

I don't want to get left behind either.

In your belief, do you believe the those who are left behind
( which makes me believe that you are in the pre-trib Rapture camp )
are ALL damned?

Or will there be some saved and called to Christ in the great tribulation
as defined as the wrath of God poured out on this earth?

Just a question seeking to understand your position,
not making a statement to articulate my position.

There will be least in the kingdom of heaven for breaking even the least of His commandments and teaching other so in Matthew 5:19. These least are the same as the vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood & earth.

Now if they repent before the Bridegroom comes, they will be received as vessels unto honor in His House, vessels of gold and silver. So to think about that damnation whereby they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House, vessels of gold & silver but just vessels of dishonor, as vessels of wood and earth, but still in His House 2 Timothy 2:20 just as the least are still in that kingdom of heaven.. Matthew 5:19

That said, once the door to the Marriage Supper is shut, nobody can inherit or be partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection except for those two witnesses halfway through the great tribulation that get killed, resurrected, and commanded to come up hither by the Lord as these I suspect will be Enoch and Elijah since neither one of them had died yet but were taken up into the heavens ( not God's throne ) & are travelling through time & space to be dropped off for the great tribulation much in the same way Philip was transported from one place to another via the Spirit.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Granted,, there will be new believers since the rapture event, but again, they can never be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection, but if they die when the beast wages war von them, they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels of wood and earth. It is a damnation in a sense that after the rapture, other than for those 2 witnesses, nobody can be vessels unto honor in His House, as vessels of gold and silver but they will be vessels unto dishonor as vessels of wood ad earth.

Feel free to ask further questions for clarification if needed.
.

 

[GodB4Us]

With the great tribulation, the bible mentions Saints on the earth. Probably many unbelievers will repent and turn to Christ. Also many will not.
I dont know if it will be a pretribulation rapture or not but inclined to think that there will be.
If any children of God remain on the earth, then they cannot lose their eternal salvation. That wouldnt be an eternal gift otherwise.

Those unrepentant saints and former believers that get left behind on earth are still saved and in His House as a testimony of the power of God in salvation for all those who believe in Him, even in His name.

 

[GodB4Us]

Say more please,

You say it is all one thing, are you sure?

If it is all one thing, how can one receive more eternal life than another?

For example the parable of the talents with various rewards given,
and the other parable with they were given different number of cities to rule
over. Are you saying in your interpretation that parable is simply relating to
eternal life, and not some reward that we will get in heaven?

I think about this verse:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
1 Corinthians 3:-11-15

My understanding of that verse is that there those who are saved, however there are things
that they are doing "for Christ" which does not have Jesus as the foundation, and they will
not be rewarded in heaven for (I'm asking what is this reward). For example, someone gives
to the homeless but brags about it, they give to boast and Christ was not the foundation,
so they will not get a reward

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others.
Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." - Matthew 6:2

But if I understand you correctly you are saying the reward is all the same, eternal life?
However these verses seem to separate salvation from the rewards, as being something
extra, as it speaks of some getting rewards and losing their rewards but still being saved.

Do you see that as well? Read the verse again that I shared and let me know your interpretation.

Thanks.
You may add as well @Lavenderfields and @GodB4Us and @Godbehonored , your thoughts
on those verses above.

Thanks.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 cites physical death for defiling the temple of God and so if we apply what excommunication by the church will do in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5, then that is what God will do literally in that day of the rapture when He judges His House first in casting those not found abiding in Him as left behind to give unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh; hence physical death but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & 1 Corinthians 3:15

 

[*Lavender]

Thank you @GodB4Us
Thank you to you all.

I was thinking about 1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Reading this in context to 1 Corinthians 3 regarding rewards and losses with the Saints.

I often think of Solomon who clearly was a child of God, anointed with great wisdom but sadly went wildly went astray and received losses as a result.
There was nothing written about him being damned or the old testament words. It seems that Solomon was still regarded as a child of God and the anointed words are divinely preserved in the bible.

 

[GodB4Us]

Thank you @GodB4Us
Thank you to you all.

I was thinking about 1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Reading this in context to 1 Corinthians 3 regarding rewards and losses with the Saints.

I often think of Solomon who clearly was a child of God, anointed with great wisdom but sadly went wildly went astray and received losses as a result.
There was nothing written about him being damned or the old testament words. It seems that Solomon was still regarded as a child of God and the anointed words are divinely preserved in the bible.

Solomon and all Old Testament saints and the sons of God before the flood were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise for when Jesus descended to preach unto those in prison where He met that thief on the cross that day after His death.

From Jesus telling of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, we can ascertain that Abraham's bosom was across the great gulf from hell but still beneath the earth. Scripture confirms that location.

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, .........

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul spoke of the apostle John for when he was taken to Paradies which was now located in Heaven for ow the apostle John was led to write the Book of Revelations.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Upon His resurrection and then after His ascension, Paradise and all the inhabitants were transferred to the third heaven which is God's throne, the literal Heaven.

 

[Curtis]

The wages of "sin" is "death". I guess you could say "death" is the reward for sin.

 

[Curtis]

The five rewards for believers.

The Imperishable Crown (1Cor 9:24-25)
The Crown of Rejoicing (1Thes 2:19)
The Crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8)
The Crown of Glory (1 Pet 5:4)
The Crown of Life (Rev2:10)

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

The five rewards for believers.

The Imperishable Crown (1Cor 9:24-25)
The Crown of Rejoicing (1Thes 2:19)
The Crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8)
The Crown of Glory (1 Pet 5:4)
The Crown of Life (Rev2:10)

So what does that actually mean?

Heavenly jewelry, or more than that?

 

[Curtis]

So what does that actually mean?

Heavenly jewelry, or more than that?

All believers will get these crowns not because of what we have done, but because of what Jesus has done through us. As Jesus once said, "I can of my own self do nothing...". Also, Jesus said, "without me, you can do nothing...."

The Imperishable Crown (1Cor 9:24-25) We are born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God.
The Crown of Rejoicing (1Thes 2:19) The Joy of the Lord is our strength.
The Crown of Righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) Jesus is the one who has made us righteous.
The Crown of Glory (1 Pet 5:4) Jesus gave unto us his glory.
The Crown of Life (Rev2:10) Jesus is our life.

We do not deserve any of these crowns. Only because of Jesus are they given unto us.

The greatest of all rewards is the same God told Abram.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

 

[God's Truth]

Say more please,

So glad you ask.

You say it is all one thing, are you sure?

Yes and yes.

If it is all one thing, how can one receive more eternal life than another?
For example the parable of the talents with various rewards given,

It is about obeying Jesus while he is gone and being ready when he comes back.
It is about how much you did with yourself and obeyed and grew in the Lord.

and the other parable with they were given different number of cities to rule
over. Are you saying in your interpretation that parable is simply relating to
eternal life, and not some reward that we will get in heaven?

The reward is eternal life.
Jesus is teaching about how well we do until he comes back.

I think about this verse:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
1 Corinthians 3:-11-15

My understanding of that verse is that there those who are saved, however there are things
that they are doing "for Christ" which does not have Jesus as the foundation, and they will
not be rewarded in heaven for (I'm asking what is this reward).

The reward is eternal life, and it is about obeying Jesus.

For example, someone gives
to the homeless but brags about it, they give to boast and Christ was not the foundation,
so they will not get a reward

That could be a good example, because in your example, it doesn't sound like the person even knows Jesus, because he is not obeying Jesus.
We have to obey Jesus to get saved and to stay saved.
God knows us if we love Him by obeying Him, and that is how we know Him, too.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others.
Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." - Matthew 6:2

But if I understand you correctly you are saying the reward is all the same, eternal life?

Right, they received their reward. They don't know Jesus and are not obeying him.

However these verses seem to separate salvation from the rewards, as being something
extra, as it speaks of some getting rewards and losing their rewards but still being saved.

Maybe you can think about it more.
Should I make a thread just about the reward, because it might get long?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

With the great tribulation, the bible mentions Saints on the earth. Probably many unbelievers will repent and turn to Christ. Also many will not.
I dont know if it will be a pretribulation rapture or not but inclined to think that there will be.
If any children of God remain on the earth, then they cannot lose their eternal salvation. That wouldnt be an eternal gift otherwise.

The pre-trib teaching as a whole is dumb. They keep telling and assuring us that we'll be "out of here" right before the tribulation, but they never specify how that will happen. Not even any remote suggestion or wild guess. And based on "meeting the Lord in the air", it gives you a false impression that we might be "ascending" into heaven like Jesus did on Mount Olive. While it is true that the Two Witnesses will ascend in that manner (Rev. 11:12), there's no guarantee that all God's people will be raptured like that. And by the way, that ascension of the Two Witnesses takes place at the end of the 3.5 year period, not anywhere before that.

This teaching has made huge negative impact to a lot of churches, under its influence, lots of people are disengaged from the fight with spiritual darkness and putting their hope on this rapture that could happen at "anytime" in the twinkling of an eye, I've heard it several times that this rapture could even happen before the end of this sermon!

 

[GodB4Us]

The wages of "sin" is "death". I guess you could say "death" is the reward for sin.

Yes, even for saved believers in unrepentance or former believers that would deny Him because He still abides in them per 2 Timothy 2:13 even after being denied by Him 2 Timothy 2:12 for why they would be left behind to be given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 for why their spirits will live per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 after the physical body is destroyed per verses 16-17. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House that did not depart from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:18-21

 

[*Lavender]

I've heard it several times that this rapture could even happen before the end of this sermon.

So have I, but more in emails. At one time two preachers were sending out their theology , which contradicted each other and they didn't know each other. They both went to great lengths to write about false teachers and false doctrines. That if they met each other they would have come head to head. I know that we need to be aware of false doctrines but draw the line to people making mistakes on their journey to seek the truth. Found in Jesus.As they are born again or sincerely seeking. I got so fed up about them talking about false doctrines and they were all possibilities of outcomes like the millennium, etc. Nobody has got it perfect but as long as theire s a grasp of what is essential. Then they debate on that how old is the earth. I don't see that as essential. Jesus is essential and complying to what He said.

These forums should be about people graciously seeking the truth together and not be blasted if mistakes are made, or forced to take on another doctrine or the person is false.
Especially when Jesus is known to be the way, the truth and the life and that is known in one's heart. Nobody is denying repentance of sins or obedience to God because they say that.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, even for saved believers in unrepentance or former believers that would deny Him because He still abides in them per 2 Timothy 2:13 even after being denied by Him 2 Timothy 2:12 for why they would be left behind to be given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 for why their spirits will live per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 after the physical body is destroyed per verses 16-17. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House that did not depart from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:18-21

Premature death is a possible reality for those who give place to the devil.

 

[*Lavender]

@Jesus_is_LORD
Quoted
So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites
do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others.
Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." - Matthew 6:2

My reply:
Sometimes unbelievers have more compassion for the needy and do things unseen.

For they are made in the image of God and the remnants of God is there.
That however doesn't cancel out the sins in their lives in other areas.
Good works do not pay for the transgressions. The blood of Jesus does.
Having a mixture of good and bad falls short of the glory of God.

There are motives for good works. Are they through selfish reasons or through selfless reasons.
Are they to make a person feel better about the sin in their life.
Do they cover and make up for sin.
Do they fit an image and identity of a good citizen, and give the person a place in society.

Or are they purely selfless. Often family members can have kinship love and be selfless. When that extends to strangers and those who don't like a person, to those who are ungrateful then they could be selfless reasons.
That's how God looks at the heart and the heart is deceitful.
Many a time I thought I did nice things but then realized I was doing them to fit a good person image, to make myself feel good.

That's why we need the blood of Jesus to clean our heart first and do things that are good ,where the left hand doesn't even know what the right hand is doing , when they are unseen and out of good motives, when a person is born again and in their walk with God.