Rhema said:

And what of the concept of "totality" ?? Must apostacy be total rejection ?

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That's a good question, but I believe it does... bear with me here for a minute.

There are people who claim they used to be Christians, but now they say they aren't anymore. They say they don't believe in Jesus/God anymore, and Jesus isn't the way to the Father.
So would you agree that is apostasy?

Then there are people, who claim they are still Christians. They say I believe in Jesus, some will even say I am born again, and I have the Holy Spirit.
However they now believe homosexuality and transgenderism (among other things) are now OK with God. I don't believe these people to be saved any longer.
There is a fine line between believing a sin is OK, and actually practicing the sin itself. But in this case I don't know if it matters that much.
( Rom 1:32; says even if you merely agree with other practicing homosexuality, you are worthy of death)
So these people aren't "totally" rejecting Christianity (at least they say they aren't). But in reality they are rejecting God's word. God's commands.
Jesus is no longer "Lord and King" over their life. The Bible is no longer their moral compass. The Holy Spirit is no longer convicting them.

So even though these people would say they aren't rejecting God/Jesus, in my opinion they are.

For example:
1Thes 4:3; For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Now some might say, this merely the "will" of God, but not an actual requirement for salvation. However...

1Thes 4:7; For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
1Thes 4:8; So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

If they reject this, they are actually rejecting God.

2Tim 3:5; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

There are "Christians" who hold on to "a form of godliness", but they deny it's power. They aren't saved.

For you to consider......

There are verses in the NT that are not aimed at the "body of Christ".

So, in the case of the "final apostasy", its obvious that this is not talking to unbelievers, as what do they have to fall from? ?????
So, this "great falling away "" verse, is talking to the body of Christ in the "time of the gentiles", just before the GTrib starts.

Now, what apostasy could the NT be describing, regarding the "falling away", that is describing the CHURCH AGE times we are IN right now?

Its very simple.
Its an apostasy from "Grace". Its a falling away from the Gospel of the Grace of God.
Its a return to LEGALISM, that is world wide, regarding the body of Christ.

What is Legalism?
Legalism is the actual "falling from Grace" that Paul talks about in Galatians when he tells believers they are "bewitched" and "in the flesh".
Jude talks about it, when he tells you to "contend earnestly for the real faith".

So, Legalism, is the falling away from the Grace of God, by the body of Christ that is the great and final apostasy.

Want to test that?
Then go to any Christian forum, and find out how many people believe that they can lose their salvation.

See, when you believe you can lose your salvation, you DO NOT BELIEVE that Christ's Blood (Redemption) has the power to keep you saved.........so, you have left faith in Christ and fallen from the Grace of God, into ..."here is how i keep myself saved". = Fallen from GRACE.

See that?
That is You on the CROSS......= Legalism , and it has infected ALL Christian forums, and a good 80% of the body of Christ.

THERE is your "falling away"...... there is your "Apostasy" found.....= Its to LEAVE the Grace of God, and get into LEGALISM, or "self saving" that no longer believes that Christ alone is why you go to heaven.

B-A-C said:

( Rom 1:32; says even if you merely agree with other practicing homosexuality, you are worthy of death)

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I don't think that assertion can be supported by that passage.


I'm rather sure the text states that "those who commit such things" are the ones who "have pleasure in them that do" likewise. NOT, that if one merely agrees the practice is okay that one is worthy of death. Truly, the ones worthy of death (according to the text) are they that commit such things. Furthermore, one might conclude that the "such things" are all the things that Paul lists... those "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful..."

But... are you actually stating here that we as Christians are to be supportive of and implement the death penalty for gays ??

(And what of those disobedient to parents? OFF with their heads ??)

B-A-C said:

But in reality they are rejecting God's word.

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Given enough time, I'm also rather sure I could show that you reject God's word, but such discussion can easily turn combative, and I'm not quite ready for you to declare me apostate.

Peace,
Rhema

Bethel said:

See, when you believe you can lose your salvation, you DO NOT BELIEVE that Christ's Blood (Redemption) has the power to keep you saved.........so, you have left faith in Christ and fallen from the Grace of God, into ..."here is how i keep myself saved". = Fallen from GRACE.

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Do you see any contradiction in this? I can't lose my salvation, but I can lose my salvation (if I don't believe Jesus can keep me saved). Legalism or not... grace or not... the point is, you have fallen away. You have lost your salvation.

B-A-C said:

There are "Christians" who hold on to "a form of godliness", but they deny it's power. They aren't saved.

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(Uh oh... I think someone else just posted that you're not saved....)
.

Rhema said:

But... are you actually stating here that we as Christians are to be supportive of and implement the death penalty for gays ??

(And what of those disobedient to parents? OFF with their heads ??)

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Jesus/God is also supportive of the death penalty for gays. God rained down fire and brimstone on two entire cities, and killed everyone there.
Now of course it isn't us who judges these people, it's God. But make no mistake, He will judge them.

Same thing for those who were disobedient to parents, Lev 20:9; If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.

Deut 21:18; “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
Deut 21:19; then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
Deut 21:20; “They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
Deut 21:21; Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of itand fear.

God will judge these people too.

Matt 15:4; “For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’
Matt 15:5; “But you say, ‘Whoever says to hisfather or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,”
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matt 15:7; “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matt 15:8; ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
Matt 15:9; ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

B-A-C said:

Jesus/God is also supportive of the death penalty for gays.

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Yet that would require a judgment, would it not?


In this passage Jesus clearly said that he came not to judge, so one cannot stipulate that Jesus supports the death penalty for gays. It seems to me that you hold to a kind of mish-mash of the Old (dead) covenant and the New.

Rhema

Rhema said:

But... are you actually stating here that we as Christians are to be supportive of and implement the death penalty for gays ??

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In the New testament, we don't stone people anymore. I don't know of any laws in the US in the last few generations that state someone should be killed because they are gay.
But even if there was, I wasn't the one who made that law.

It's not mine (or yours) job to go out and stone (or kill) all the homosexuals. I believe there is a chance that some will repent, so we should give them the opportunity.
However, if they don't repent, God will give them the death penalty, not just physical death in this life, but also the second death, which is eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

Am I supportive of the death penalty for gays? Maybe not directly, I don't think I would ever kill someone for being gay.
But am I supportive of God in His judgment of homosexuals? Absolutely.

Rhema said:

Yet that would require a judgment, would it not?

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1Cor 5:2; You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
1Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

Matt 18:16; “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
Matt 18:17; “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

B-A-C said:

Now of course it isn't us who judges these people, it's God. But make no mistake, He will judge them.

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Really ??


Scripture clearly states that one is judged by the words of one's own judgment.

Rhema

(Have you forgiven gays ??)

Rhema said:

(Have you forgiven gays ??)

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Interesting you should ask. I work with a few, I personally don't have any problems with them, we get along.

A single lady in a church has a gay/transgender son. He is not a Christian, nor does he claim to be.
I spent an hour talking to him Sunday morning before church. I didn't throw scripture at him, I just tried to get to know him and where he is coming from.
We are going out for lunch later this week.

Maybe he will repent, maybe he won't I don't know. I have been, and will continue to pray for him.
But whether he does or doesn't, it's not my job to judge or condemn him.
But if he doesn't, eventually God will judge and condemn him.

1Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

Phil 3: 17 Brothers and sisters, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who have their minds on earthly things.

Rhema said:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

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When Jesus came the first time, it wasn't to judge the world, when He comes back the 2nd time, it will be different.

2Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 19:11; And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12; His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Rhema said:

So then who did tell Adam that he was naked?

(You are sooo close to understanding Autognosticism. Perhaps you do !!)

If their "knowing" came through sin, how can it be trusted ??

Rhema

Gen. 3:11 - the most important "left unanswered" question in the Bibile.

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something that I was wondering too, and the consensus of opinion out there is, it was Satan. Fruit doesnt talk as far as i am aware, and no one else was there who could speak. They werent afraid of there nakedness until someone told them. And you forgot to mention a certain prophet who walked the middle east stark naked for three years. But now this is getting off topic, so thats enough for me, however plenty of evidence in the bible to suggest God couldnt care less whether your dressed or naked.

Rhema said:

Really ??

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.​

(Matthew 7:2 KJV)​

​

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:​

(Luke 6:37 KJV)​

​

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.​

(John 12:47-48 KJV)​

​

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.​

(Matthew 12:37 KJV)​

Scripture clearly states that one is judged by the words of one's own judgment.

Rhema

(Have you forgiven gays ??)

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So in other words, hate the sin, not the sinner. EXACTLY!

Waggles said:

Ah also an apologist that scripture is not spiritual, but just what people wrote way back then.
Same as a local Lutheran pastor who preaches that the scriptures on husbands and wives are not for today as they represent the culture of the times that they were written in.
Same again for those accepting homosexuality in various churches - no condemnation because those who wrote the scriptures did not have the medical and psychological understanding that we have today concerning sexuality.
Complete rubbish. The word of God is spiritual and everybody (including the saints) shall be judged against the word of God.

Psalm 119:9 Beth How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

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the message doesnt change, the context of the times change., Gods word in itself never changes, it has stood the test of time. He used culture of the time to teach people and give them an example that they could relate to. Telling an amazon tribe they are going to hell because they wander around the jungle naked would be hilarious to them. All in context.

B-A-C said:

Interesting you should ask. I work with a few, I personally don't have any problems with them, we get along.

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But given your views of abject condemnation by God, how would one then witness in such a situation ??

B-A-C said:

I didn't throw scripture at him, I just tried to get to know him and where he is coming from.
We are going out for lunch later this week.

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Okay. Let me know if you find something that works.

B-A-C said:

I have been, and will continue to pray for him.

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Then you are asking God to save him. What more could be asked.
(Why is there no thumbs up emoji ?)

B-A-C said:

But if he doesn't, eventually God will judge and condemn him.

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Again, I don't find that to be the case. The passage you quoted doesn't say that God will either judge or condemn.

Yes, they don't inherit the kingdom of God, but that would be by their own choice - not God's.

B-A-C said:

When Jesus came the first time, it wasn't to judge the world, when He comes back the 2nd time, it will be different.

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Where did Jesus Himself say this ??

(BTW, the book of Revelation is not in the canon of the Church of the East, so one might just as well quote the Urantia book to me ...)

Rhema

B-A-C said:

2Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

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Interesting.

Typically this verse is believed to apply only to believers - the "all" being "us" the Body of Christ. Otherwise, if applied to all people, then wouldn't salvation be based upon one's "deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." My apologies that I don't yet know you well enough to know whether you consider works (okay... deeds) to be part of the requirements for salvation.

Gregoryp said:

something that I was wondering too, and the consensus of opinion out there is, it was Satan.

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But the text doesn't say Satan. Indeed, Adam told himself that he was naked.

We run into the issue where Hebrew is too much a gutter tribal language, where significant concepts that are truly different are expressed by the same word. The Hebrew vocabulary isn't sufficient. (One reason why the New Testament texts were published in Greek.)

Consider - H3045 יָדַע yâda‛.

It's not just a "knowing" of good and evil, but an "establishing"; a "making." Adam and Eve created their own understanding of what was good and evil - apart from the sovereignty of God.

Gregoryp said:

Fruit doesnt talk as far as i am aware, and no one else was there who could speak.

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Adam was. Adam was there, and he could speak. His "eyes were opened" and he made the decision for himself - whether a thing was right and wrong, good or evil. It's the same problem that all men must deal with today. So then who tells people whether something is good or evil ? They tend to tell themselves - to decide for themselves. Until their System of Right and Wrong draws them far enough off the mark towards death so that they cry out and repent.

Gregoryp said:

They werent afraid of there nakedness until someone told them.

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The fruit gave Adam and Eve brain damage - they told themselves - they established for themselves that nakedness was wrong.

Who told you it wasn't ??

Gregoryp said:

however plenty of evidence in the bible to suggest God couldnt care less whether your dressed or naked.

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Have you started a thread on this topic ?? ( I'd call you out on this, but it would hijack the thread.)

Gregoryp said:

But now this is getting off topic, so thats enough for me,

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Quite understood.

Gregoryp said:

And you forgot to mention a certain prophet who walked the middle east stark naked for three years.

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You mean Jesus ?? Wait... what ?? Who ?? ( We're taking names...)


You do realize it was a SIGN of shame, Greg....

Rhema

Gregoryp said:

So in other words, hate the sin, not the sinner. EXACTLY!

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To be honest, I see no difference between the two. The sin and the sinner are ONE.... as we and the Father are to be ONE.

Rhema

Rhema said:

To be honest, I see no difference between the two. The sin and the sinner are ONE.... as we and the Father are to be ONE.

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Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Question: Did/Does God love (unsaved) sinners? Does God love sin?