B-A-C
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A Chasm, canyon, pit, would be something deeper than the two things on either side of it.
Go to google click on images, and search chasm. It's always a deeper area than what surrounds it by definition.
Where do we go when we die?
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A Chasm, canyon, pit, would be something deeper than the two things on either side of it.
Go to google click on images, and search chasm. It's always a deeper area than what surrounds it by definition.
Butch5
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The soul of the disembodied spirit? According to Genesis a soul is a body infused with the breath or spirit of God. Thus a soul requires a body. The breath or spirit is something of God Himself. Where in Scripture do you find this idea that spirits have souls that can live on after death?
Brother-Paul
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Interesting brother
The concept of shoel which is Hades, I have just glanced over another comment, chasm and Google, I will have another browse after my tea.
This, as Sue said yesterday, has settled into a good discussion.
Shalom
Hekuran
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@Butch5
Does this 4 minute video explain the soul concept well?
Nephesh literally means 'throat'.
Throat - because all life depends on breathing - is used figuratively to mean living being, including animals.
So psalm 42
As the deer pants for streams of water, so my (throat/living being) pants for you, my God.
Does this 4 minute video explain the soul concept well?
Nephesh literally means 'throat'.
Throat - because all life depends on breathing - is used figuratively to mean living being, including animals.
So psalm 42
As the deer pants for streams of water, so my (throat/living being) pants for you, my God.
Butch5
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Hi Hekuran,
While I'm not familiar with throat as a definition, the video is spot on, and, throat makes sense. My point is that it is a living being. It's often translated as life also. The point is that it is always associated with the living, not the dead. It's associated with a physical being. As the video pointed out animals are called souls. The Bible doesn't say they have souls, it says they "are" souls. As Genesis 2:7 points out the man, the body of flesh, is what became a living soul. The Scriptures don't say that a soul was put into man, they say the man became a living soul. The Bible says that the soul is in the blood. In that passage it's translated life. If we trace this word through the Bible it becomes clear what the word means. One of the problems we find is that translators have used many different English words to translate Nephesh (Hebrew) and Psuche (Greek). In doing this the English reader doesn't see many times where this word is used and as such only sees the uses that the translator wants him/her to see by using soul in a limited number of places. I believe it's theologically driven. Whether intentional or not I don't know. I think we have the same problem with the words Neshamah, ruach, (Hebrew) and noe, pneuma (Greek) that are often translated spirit. The primary meaning of these words is wind or breath. They are sometimes used figuratively as spirit. The problem is that when people see the word spirit they import the English idea of the word spirit into the text rather than the Greek or Hebrew ideas of wind or breath. Just think of a passage of Scripture where the Bible is talking about wind or breath and the English reader is importing the idea of a disembodied living being. It's not hard to see how people can easily end up out in left field. This is why I don't take translations lightly. The more closely they follow the original language the better. All too often the English reader has no idea that they are even missing the point. I think we have to remember that the translators are only human and they make mistakes. They're not inspired as the apostles were. One thing I've done is to start reading wind or breath instead of spirit when I see these words. It's made a big difference in my understanding of Scripture. Quite a few passages that didn't really seem to fit anywhere suddenly fit perfectly. Here is an example of how they change up the translation.
By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. (Job 4:9 KJV)
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; (Job 27:3 KJV)
Neshamah Ruach
In the first verse they translate ruach as breath and in the second they translate ruach as spirit. Why? By saying spirit of God it gives the idea that the third person of the Trinity is in Job. However, we can clearly see that breath is really the better translation. He's talking about being alive, his breath is in him and the breath of God is in his nostrils The breath of God is the breath of life. But, for the reader who doesn't know that the same word ruach is used here but translated differently, he can't make that connection and thinks the spirit of God is in his nostrils rather than seeing that it is the breath of God. When we add in the importation of the English meaning of spirit we now have a disembodied living being in Jobs nostrils. So, now people think the third person of the Trinity dwelling in Job, when all the while the passage is saying that the breath of life is in him, that he's alive.
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Eccles 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
B-A-C
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This appears to be a top view, not a side view.
Brother-Paul
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Agreed brother
I take the vertical shaft image but it is possibly incomplete
The Chasm is probably a better translation than gulf in this situation, don't you think.
To be more complete I would draw it as a thermomenter with the lead ball at the bottom, the great chasm coming upwards with a section or compartment part way up, one on the left, one on the right, for the righteous in Paradise and the other for the unrighteous in torment. Represented in a drawing as for example to jug like angles. I am sure you get the picture.
The reason I say it is incomplete is because lower down is the section or compartment where the fallen angels are locked away until judgement day.
Shalom
PloughBoy
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Let me say this; Hell, The Lake of Fire, burning with Brimstone, outer of space, inner space, Volcanoes, time, The universe, Oceans, and The foot stool called earth. Is not even a play ground for "The Almighty GOD" He is everywhere, There is nowhere that "GOD" is not occupying. He is everywhere. For the ungodly to stand before GOD is Pure "TERROR"of The Highest degree, Holiness, burning hotter than the Lake Of FIRE, burning hotter than Brimstone. it will be a kind sense, of Mercy for GOD to throw the ungodly in The Burning Lake, Than let them stand before His Presence 
......For our GOD is A Consuming FIRE!
(Psalms 139)
"Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you."
One thing may I say, in The field of "Theology Proper" You study about GOD! and HOW GOD deals With MANKIND! And not what man thinks about GOD and how they react to what they think what GOD is all about. When you see GOD in The Holy Scriptures all others IN the Bible falls into line, "SYSTEMATICALLY" and makes a lot of Biblical sense.
......For our GOD is A Consuming FIRE!(Psalms 139)
"Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you."
One thing may I say, in The field of "Theology Proper" You study about GOD! and HOW GOD deals With MANKIND! And not what man thinks about GOD and how they react to what they think what GOD is all about. When you see GOD in The Holy Scriptures all others IN the Bible falls into line, "SYSTEMATICALLY"
and makes a lot of Biblical sense.
Butch5
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Thanks Brother Paul!
PloughBoy
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I like that a man does not have a soul, He became a "living soul"
King James Bible
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
New King James Version
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Butch5
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I think this is key. It really changes how we see this whole issue.I like that a man does not have a soul, He became a "living soul"
King James Bible
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
New King James Version
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Hekuran
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Yes. The modern translation here is better. On western ears 'soul' tends to bring misleading ideas about an immaterial essence of a person.I like that a man does not have a soul, He became a "living soul"
King James Bible
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
New King James Version
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
And this has big implications for the way we think about life and life after death.
Beetow
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I've been an on-going student of the Bible since 1968 via numerous sermons, lectures,
seminars, books, Sunday school classes, and radio programs. In all those 53 years
nobody yet-- not one preacher, not one author, not one Sunday school teacher, nor one
radio speaker --has ever produced rock solid, iron clad, empirical evidence for the
existence of an afterlife.
I've also read numerous issues of Scientific American, Natl Geographic, and Discovery:
and watched YouTube videos by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, and Michio Kaku--
not one of those magazines, nor any of those learned men, produced scientific evidence
for the existence of an afterlife.
I also attended a Billy Graham crusade in San Diego back in 1976. He didn't have any
factual information proving an afterlife either.
And still I am a die-hard believer that an afterlife exists-- not because it's proven to exist
but because I feel it in the core of my being.
Now of course feelings are not facts; nevertheless feelings, when they're strong enough,
easily overwhelm logic and reason. In other words: I don't need a Bible to tell me
something awaits people beyond death's door; my intuition tells me so, in spite of
common sense insisting otherwise.
» Just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so do honest Christians. And
there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending to have complete understanding of
a supernatural issue that by its very nature defies reality.
_
seminars, books, Sunday school classes, and radio programs. In all those 53 years
nobody yet-- not one preacher, not one author, not one Sunday school teacher, nor one
radio speaker --has ever produced rock solid, iron clad, empirical evidence for the
existence of an afterlife.
I've also read numerous issues of Scientific American, Natl Geographic, and Discovery:
and watched YouTube videos by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, and Michio Kaku--
not one of those magazines, nor any of those learned men, produced scientific evidence
for the existence of an afterlife.
I also attended a Billy Graham crusade in San Diego back in 1976. He didn't have any
factual information proving an afterlife either.
And still I am a die-hard believer that an afterlife exists-- not because it's proven to exist
but because I feel it in the core of my being.
Now of course feelings are not facts; nevertheless feelings, when they're strong enough,
easily overwhelm logic and reason. In other words: I don't need a Bible to tell me
something awaits people beyond death's door; my intuition tells me so, in spite of
common sense insisting otherwise.
» Just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so do honest Christians. And
there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending to have complete understanding of
a supernatural issue that by its very nature defies reality.
_
@Beetow -- No one has complete understanding of Anything much less of supernatural issues.
However -- we Do have God's Word -- we are given enough information about the afterlife to know it exists
There is a heaven or hell in each person's future.. To be more precise -- in Revelation 20 and 21 -- the New Jerusalem will be brought down from heaven by God, Himself. We are given a description of it.
The hell will be the lake of fire and brimestone into which satan, the false prophet and the beast will be thrown into as well as Death and Hades /vs 10 & 14. And those those name is not found written in the Book of life will be case into the lake, also.
God's Word Also tells us how to be able to be in the one place and stay out Of the other place. And they will both last forever. vs 10 being tormented for ever and ever.
However -- we Do have God's Word -- we are given enough information about the afterlife to know it exists
There is a heaven or hell in each person's future.. To be more precise -- in Revelation 20 and 21 -- the New Jerusalem will be brought down from heaven by God, Himself. We are given a description of it.
The hell will be the lake of fire and brimestone into which satan, the false prophet and the beast will be thrown into as well as Death and Hades /vs 10 & 14. And those those name is not found written in the Book of life will be case into the lake, also.
God's Word Also tells us how to be able to be in the one place and stay out Of the other place. And they will both last forever. vs 10 being tormented for ever and ever.
Beetow
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The Bible is just as useless for proving the existence of an afterlife as the Koran is
useless for proving the existence of Allah, and/or Hindu literature for proving the
existence of Lord Vishnu.
You see, those holy books contain proprietary information rather than verified facts.
In other words: those books are useful for instructing people who believe in them
but nigh unto useless for instructing people who don't.
_
@Beetow -- Any book is useless if it isn't read.
The Bible Is the Word of God.
Do celebrate Christmas or Easter / Resurrection Sunday?
Genesis is the book of beginnings. Very relevant -- unless a person doesn't want to know how this world got here or how man got here.
As I was rereading your background in Bible from post #117 -- to come to the conclusions that you have -- you wasted your time studying.
Going back to 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness, vs 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Look at Psalm 119: 9,11 , etc "How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. //Thy Word have I hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You."
The Bible Is the Word of God.
Do celebrate Christmas or Easter / Resurrection Sunday?
Genesis is the book of beginnings. Very relevant -- unless a person doesn't want to know how this world got here or how man got here.
As I was rereading your background in Bible from post #117 -- to come to the conclusions that you have -- you wasted your time studying.
Going back to 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness, vs 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Look at Psalm 119: 9,11 , etc "How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. //Thy Word have I hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You."
