KingJ said:

I like how you EVADE the entire post with this accusatory line. Insanity Butch!! Utter waste of time discussing with you.

I have given you scriptures and explained it is not an assumption.

I feel you have a terribly warped idea of what Christianity is if you do not believe we are here to ''serve'' God.

Enjoy your day at the park, whilst actual Christians are witnessing to God in areas where the devil is attacking them with all his strength. Trying DAILY to stumble them.

At least in the park, you are in a safe zone where your '''salvation''' / ''''faith''''' is secure right.

If you say ''oh man, me being in the park is an assumption''...is it? If you believe you can lose your salvation and be burnt alive / annihilated, you would be the definition of mad if you did not stay in a permanent safe zone.

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I haven't evaded anything you've said, On the other hand, I've pointed out the numerous fallacies in your arguments. You asked about one. The assumption you've made that God ordains everyone's life hasn't been validated. Your understanding of a passage of Scripture isn't proof unless it's correct. You've mixed up lead with ordain. They mean different things. Your understanding of the word partial is incorrect. It means to show favor. So, even if you were correct that God ordained people's live it wouldn't be partiality unless God choose one of the other through favoritism rather than suitability. Additionally, your argument is based on a passage of Scripture you're taken out of context. In the passage Peter is talking about partiality between Jews and Gentiles. He says nothing about people's lives or God ordering them.

I'm not surprised you've spent 10 years debating Atheists. I'd bet not one has been converted, because anyone can see the massive amount of errors in your arguments. You put that post up claiming you couldn't find an anti-osas believer capable of logical though. Really? That's kind of an arrogant statement for a post that is filled with logical fallacies and assumptions.

KingJ said:

What is clear to me after 2- 3 pages of discussion is the fact that anti-OSAS propagators do not properly understand what a Christians purpose on earth is and the fact that the devil is permanently attacking them.

A Christian is not earth to smell flowers and take walks on the beach.

After Paul's conversion, he became public enemy number 1. The devil tried daily to destroy him. The unsaved tried to silence him. Surely also to stumble him. To miss-represent him. To cause Christians to turn on him.

We must not be oblivious of this war we are in when we make a stand for Jesus and decide to serve Him.

As such, if anti-OSAS were true, God is terribly terribly terribly un-just in that he 1. places some in a warzone where they can get shot for longer periods then others and 2. then send to ''eternal hell'' these soldiers that did more then others.....

Anti-OSAS believers have a LOT of explaining to do. A lot!!!!! I am still waiting.......

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Or, you could learn proper methods of reasoning.

Greetings Men,

may i remind one and all that a little kindness goes a long way and that we do want to exercise the honour of loving your brother here at TalkJesus?

This 'topic' has been and gone quite a few times and so far, has never had consensus, one way or another... so please let us all remember that from now on.

Post in Peace as brothers should


Bless you ....><>

KingJ said:

Understanding God, from scripture is the starting point.

If we look at the temptations of Jesus in Matt 4, we see that the devil knew scripture. Jesus knew God and from the knowledge of God, knew the scripture to quote to correct the ''cherry'' picked scripture by the devil.

A Christian can and must know God. The prophets did! Think about that. When David said ''Give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1, he was not quoting scripture. When Paul preached the NT, he knew God and had a hard time explaining context and scripture to Jews.

A Christian ''should'' grasp God as the prophets did.

Fortunately for us, we have scripture from prophets and Christians already penned. So. today we can compare a Christian's knowledge of God against scripture.

Now a Christian should be able to state with certainty that a God who judges one's heart Jer 17:9-11 as being sincere, be able to marry them and ''stick'' to the arrangement.

If we truly believe in anti-OSAS it casts doubt on God's commitment to us. Not just now but surely for all eternity. Only God is good Mark 10:18. We judge angels in heaven 1 Cor 6:3 because they sin. There is still sin in heaven. We are only '''justified'' / ''righteous''' because we have been washed by the blood of Jesus. If we can be ''un-washed'', we need to to be nervous of our ''salvation'' for all eternity. Imagine that.

As such an anti-OSAS belief is a work of the devil to attack the very core of a Christian's belief and hope.

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Just enough logic to make your thesis viable...but not enough truth to make it true...It is NOT God who takes you from saved to unsaved...It's your free will and YOU choosing to turn your back on God that can take you into hell. You can choose to turn your back on God at any time you choose, and if you reject life you get death, if you reject light you get darkness So its not God who would be breaking His comittment but you.

Admon Mikha'el said:

Just enough logic to make your thesis viable...but not enough truth to make it true...It is NOT God who takes you from saved to unsaved...It's your free will and YOU choosing to turn your back on God that can take you into hell. You can choose to turn your back on God at any time you choose, and if you reject life you get death, if you reject light you get darkness So its not God who would be breaking His comittment but you.

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True, It's either all free will, or it isn't frre-will at all. You can't pick and choose certain parts are this way, and other parts are different.

KingJ said:

Haha Reba 1.

You are correct, how dare we ask that of God. He is God, He can do whatever He wants. As you clearly pointed out Rom 9 says so with utter clarity.

Fortunately for us though, there are more chapters in the bible then only Rom 9. There are prophets that knew God better then most. These prophets consistently penned that God was good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

So whilst God does have the ability to do whatever He wants, what is crystal clear from the ''''rest'''' of scripture is the fact that He desires / wills to do '''what is good and righteous''.

As such, we see examples like Abraham ''being able to'' question God on the destruction of Sodom Gen 18. Moses able to do so on the annihilation of Hebrews worshiping the golden calf.

God does what pleases Him and what pleases Him is to work with us on our level (Jesus) and for us to ''grasp'' that He is good John 3:16, John 3:19, Eph 3:18.

As such for a Christian to not properly represent God is a terrible fail of our ''one'' job 2 Cor 5:20.

There is nothing wrong with interrogating God's commitment to us. If God was wicked, I would not serve Him. If God did not love me, I would not be devoted to Him.

The good news is that God is not wicked and God is not unloving. The greatest act of love He gave us John 3:19, John 3:16. My OP is making the point that us replicating a depth of desire in one action and then born again / grafted into the vine can likewise be an acceptable offering to God.

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Abraham challenged God on basis of covenant...as was his right...Moses did likewise. Its NEVER correct to question or challenge Gods motives at all.. God is good always and thus His motives are good always. Once saved always saved is correct to a point...Look at the scripture I gave above....

Romans 8:37-39 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
37 No, in all these things we are superconquerors, through the one who has loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers, neither what exists nor what is coming, 39 neither powers above nor powers below, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God which comes to us through the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.
Do you see what is missing in this list? Nothing can separate you from Gods love but YOU can separate yourself from salvation.

Can you show me a scripture that says otherwise?

Admon Mikha'el said:

Nothing can separate you from Gods love but YOU can separate yourself from salvation.

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✔ yes the weak link in the chain is every individual disciple - for not all will endure until the end
And scripture does not teach of the truly saved verses the saved - for salvation is a lifelong commitment of endurance and overcoming until the end for everybody.

Are you saved? Yes? BRILLIANT! Repent and trust in the Lord every single moment of every single day, one day at a time.

Blessings to all.

KingJ said:

I have explained why I say it is satanic.

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Wow so those who do not support the false doctrine of OSAS are not only trolls but also demonic.
Is that an ad hominem ??

Jesus answered this question so we can end the discourse now.

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Lk. 8:4-15 KJV)

There you have it. Straight from Jesus' lips. End of discussion. Turn out the lights!

'For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ.'
(1Cor. 3:11)

Hello there,

In a box full of booklets, I found one entitled, 'Fundamental Biblical Terminology'. Within it were such subjects as,

Righteousness,
Reconciliation,
Remission,
Redemption,
Propitiation,
Sanctification,
Justification &
Glorification.

It is proving to be a little gem: going into each successive facet of the work of God, accomplished in Christ Jesus for the Believer, giving such a wonderful bedrock of truth. The foundation of our faith is Christ Himself, isn't it? and we must be careful what we build upon that foundation for it shall be tried, and may be found wanting.

I believe that differences of opinion in regard to this subject, 'Can Salvation Be Lost,' and many others is the result of not fully understanding the fullness of the work of God in Christ Jesus, which each one of these terms represent. We can overstress some aspects and fail to acknowledge others, getting an unbalanced understanding of all that was accomplished by that work on our behalf. We can also be wise in our own conceits, to the detriment of truth, which is an awful thought.

'But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen,
yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in His presence.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."'
(1 Cor. 1:27-31)

It is God who places us in Christ Jesus, and it is Christ Jesus our risen Lord Who is made unto us, 'wisdom' and 'righteousness', and 'sanctification', and 'redemption'. It is all 'of' Christ, and 'in' Christ.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Butch5 said:

Jesus answered this question so we can end the discourse now.

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Lk. 8:4-15 KJV)

There you have it. Straight from Jesus' lips. End of discussion. Turn out the lights!

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Hello @Butch5,

Yes, this is certainly something which we cannot deny. However, those who have been rooted and grounded in the love of Christ, bring forth fruit with patience. This is a saving faith, and not a superficial experience, which I do not believe can be lost.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Butch5 said:

Jesus answered this question so we can end the discourse now.

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Lk. 8:4-15 KJV)

There you have it. Straight from Jesus' lips. End of discussion. Turn out the lights!

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The seed that fell on good soil represents those who are once saved always saved.

JerryfromMass said:

The seed that fell on good soil represents those who are once saved always saved.

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Jesus spoke. End of discussion

JerryfromMass said:

The seed that fell on good soil represents those who are once saved always saved.

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NO not true
the seed on the good soil are those who walk in obedience bearing fruit in their lives unto the gospel and endure through hope and patience until the end.
Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. (KJV) - By your endurance you will gain your lives. (RSV)

Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
5:3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
5:4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,

A good disciple has hope in the promises of salvation in Christ Jesus and presses on towards the goal, for we walk by faith and not by sight.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. (RSV)

the epistles primarily are instructions to the Spirit-filled church (the saints) on how to stay saved and overcome the many perils against living righteously before God.

Downunder said:

NO not true
the seed on the good soil are those who walk in obedience bearing fruit in their lives unto the gospel and endure through hope and patience until the end.
Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. (KJV) - By your endurance you will gain your lives. (RSV)

Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
5:3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
5:4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,

A good disciple has hope in the promises of salvation in Christ Jesus and presses on towards the goal, for we walk by faith and not by sight.

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As I said, and as Jesus confirmed, the seeds that fell on good soil were once saved then always saved. If they were of any other soil, they were not once saved then always saved. Just like the branches grafted onto the root-stock: not all branches will remain for they are either too dry or too big, but the good branch, like the good soil, will be once saved and then always saved.

May you come to know the truth: the truth will make you free. Amen.

Butch5 said:

Jesus spoke. End of discussion

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Amen. Jesus is truth.

As Jesus confirmed, the seeds that fell on good soil were once saved then always saved. If they were of any other soil, they were not once saved then always saved. Just like the branches grafted onto the root-stock: not all branches will remain for they are either too dry or too big, but the good branch, like the good soil, will be once saved and then always saved.

May you come to know the truth: the truth will make you free. Amen.

JerryfromMass said:

Amen. Jesus is truth.

As Jesus confirmed, the seeds that fell on good soil were once saved then always saved. If they were of any other soil, they were not once saved then always saved. Just like the branches grafted onto the root-stock: not all branches will remain for they are either too dry or too big, but the good branch, like the good soil, will be once saved and then always saved.

May you come to know the truth: the truth will make you free. Amen.

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Jesus spoke. Mic drop!