Dave M said:

Prosperity Gospel is false doctrine to put it kindly. IMO

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And yet the bible is full of promises of God prospering His people Is that false doctrine too? I think not

timaeusTestified said:

I can't see why you would want to put it kindly, if I am to be honest. It is designed to take money from people who need it most by taking advantage of the fact that they have nothing else but their ability to hope for something better, and use religion as a way to make money which they don't have to pay taxes on no matter how blatantly they use it for things that are obviously unrelated to what they say they intend to.

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I wonder why Christians always take the word 'prosperity' to mean only money? There are many forms of prosperity and money is the least of them...

When you're at the top, the only direction is down.

For the love of money is the root of all evil. (1 Tim 6:10)

There are those who love money, but don't have any, so they complain about the people who do. There are those who love money, and have it, and complain that they need more to the people who don't.

Bendito said:

And yet the bible is full of promises of God prospering His people Is that false doctrine too? I think not

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so are you in favor of the Joel Os teens of this world? I sure hope not.

My question to all of us ... when people touch our lives, what is the main thrust of what they sense? Do they sense that our main thrust is finding false doctrine and exposing brothers as false ... or do they sense the fruit of Jesus?

I so, so believe in truth. Jesus is "full of grace and truth". He sent the Holy Spirit to us and He is called "the Spirit of Truth". Jesus in Revelations rebuked churches that held to false doctrine. It is clearly real important to be in the truth and walk in the truth.

But there is an extreme on this that I don't think has been helpful to the Body of Christ. For example in the church of someone who I know and love, they preach loud and forcefully; and there are those of the opinion there needs to be forceful preaching of the gospel. In a biased paraphrase ... it needs to be loud, nasty, scary ... and if it isn't it isn't good preaching! Having said that ... these folks are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Jesus does miracles in their midst of healing and deliverance that no one can say "that isn't the Lord". It is the Lord ... Satan is not in the business of delivering people from bondage.

In another church I know of, the message is always spoken gently and in love. There is never any screaming. They do talk of repentance and judgement, and of laying down one's life; of denying one's self and taking up your cross and following Him ... but the emphasis is on Father's kindness. That is just the emphasis and bent the Lord has given this other fellowship. And in James is speaks of "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere." (James 3:17 ESV) It says the knowledge from above is pure (first) .. but then it is also peaceable and gentle.

My concern is ... much of the criticism of the prosperity movement is not peaceable ... it is not gentle. In Galations 6 it says if any one of you is caught in a trespass, those who are spiritual should correct them in a spirit gentleness [meekness, humility] ... considering yourself lest you also be tempted. It doesn't say "don't correct them" ... that is one extreme that is in error. But the way it is done is important ... it needs to be done in the spirit of Jesus, in humility knowing how much He has saved us from, how much sin He still helps us with.

For me personally ... if the emphasis of my heart is criticizing or looking for fault in my brothers out there - even if I am technically "right" - then I have missed it. People may not taste the kindness of Jesus from my life, they might taste something else ...

Anyway, I realize on this topic there are many perspectives ... so to all my brothers and sisters out there (including those who don't necessarily agree with my heart on this topic), you are all loved and appreciated. Keep seeking Him, keep close to Him and His heart ...

Your brother ...

Good brother Timotheus! I understand fully your viewpoint.( John 1:14) grace and truth!) The problem for me is not so much being against something so strongly,but rather to place the message THEY are giving as false,misleading yes and even very dangerous.If someone looks to divide the body of Christ,by another gospel ( Gal 1:6-10) which clearly this is,then it must become exposed as a warning to the rest of the body of Christ.If they hold there ears,and close there eyes to the truth,that is there business,but do not say a warning about such falsehood has not brought forth.

Many believers,and I am speaking in general terms here not about any one person,love to look at our Jesus as being full of grace and mercy,which of course he is!! But Jesus also has another side to him that many in the church do not wish to look upon.( Matt 10:34-42!!!) Being ACCOUNTABLE!!!! And Matt 12:36!!! If there is no judgment in the body of Christ to begin with( 1 Peter 4:17-18) then how will the world know that the believer is truly different from them?

To peddle God's Word in a mask of worldly pleasure, measuring one's own wealth according to there faith,is not according to the very gospel of grace itself.But many look upon this,as innocent,when in truth and grace, the message which is presented is not about either! Words to others like your sick because you have no faith,or you are poor because you have no faith,is not the correct measuring stick held by Jesus or by the disciples!

This same message was preached in the Church at Corinth! ( 1 Cor 4:7-16!!) A message you will never hear from the Word of faith movement,and with very good reason!!! Because Paul was looking for this church, as we as believers are looking for the Church to become ACCOUNTABLE! The prophecy of Isaiah has indeed come to pass for many in the Body of Christ today.( Matt 13:14-15) But not for the whole Body of Christ!!

As a servant of the Most High GOD as many of you also are,we have been given certain gifts in Christ Jesus that should not be ignored.And I for one will not ignore the truth,no more then Jesus did when he made a whip to expel the sellers and the money-changers from the Temple!( John 2:13-25) One way or another the body of Christ will learn the easy way,or the hard way, that all people created will become ACCOUNTABLE! Jesus is also Fair and JUST! And all believers and unbelievers will in the end become accountable. LOVE,GRACE,TRUTH, and JUSTICE WILL lead to a consequence! ( Col 3:25) and in this God himself is never partial.It is fine to preach upon the sunshine,but it will rain,and when it does rain( Matt 5:45) the body of Christ needs to not have fear because they did not carry the umbrella of money over there heads,but rather the Word of God over there heads! I hope this has become more clear as to my mindset upon the urgent matter in the body of Christ.

Shutterbug said:

When you're at the top, the only direction is down.

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When you serve a mighty God the only direction is up

Dave M said:

so are you in favor of the Joel Os teens of this world? I sure hope not.

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I'm in favor of all that is written in the Word! The Word talks a lot about God prospering His people even while we're in the Earth....Someone is lying Either God is lying about prosperity or people are....and I choose people.... If you choose to believe that prosperity is not for Gods people now and in heaven....well...... Get into the Word and talk to the Word about it....Never mind what people say....What does God say?

Remember the movie 'The Fiddler on the Roof'? Tevye the main character said 'If you're rich they think you really know' Conversely...If you're poor they pay no attention to what you say...."Why should I, being well off, want to become a Christian if Christians are supposed to be poor?" How do you meet the needs of the poor, the widows etc if you have nothing to give?!
To say "All I want is enough for my poor family" is selfish to the extreme...You are related to the richest person in creation and its yours for the asking...but you won't ask for riches or anything else and thus deprive the needy of that resource! How incredibly selfish. Why not keep enough for your basics for your poor family and give the riches (all kinds of riches) that God gives you to the poor?

Bendito said:

Remember the movie 'The Fiddler on the Roof'? Tevye the main character said 'If you're rich they think you really know' Conversely...If you're poor they pay no attention to what you say...."Why should I, being well off, want to become a Christian if Christians are supposed to be poor?" How do you meet the needs of the poor, the widows etc if you have nothing to give?!

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Should we not give according to what God gives us? It is not evil to be rich, but the love of the riches that we have may well the most evil of evils. As to the poor, we should provide a fair amount according to our means, but first like the woman who anointed the feet of Jesus with contents of the alabaster box, should we not take care of first things. The poor and the widows and orphans are not the first of firsts, are they? Asking for material riches in order to feed the poor and the widows and the orphans may not be wrong, but if it has the wrong priority, perhaps it would be.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" Matt 6:33

To say "All I want is enough for my poor family" is selfish to the extreme...You are related to the richest person in creation and its yours for the asking...but you won't ask for riches or anything else and thus deprive the needy of that resource! How incredibly selfish.

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It is selfish if the purpose of our heart is wrong in the eyes of God. If our heart is right in His eyes then it is not.

Why not keep enough for your basics for your poor family and give the riches (all kinds of riches) that God gives you to the poor?

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What are the basics? If we lived in Haiti, for most of us one decent meal every day would be basic, would it not? I heard a true story once of a missionary in Haiti who tried to feed those people who came to him for food. He had limited supplies so he would ask them how long it had been since they had eaten. If it was less than three days, he would not give them anything. Should we average Americans who throw away more each day in table scraps than the average Haitian consumes criticize that missionary?

amadeus2 said:

Should we not give according to what God gives us? It is not evil to be rich, but the love of the riches that we have may well the most evil of evils. As to the poor, we should provide a fair amount according to our means, but first like the woman who anointed the feet of Jesus with contents of the alabaster box, should we not take care of first things. The poor and the widows and orphans are not the first of firsts, are they? Asking for material riches in order to feed the poor and the widows and the orphans may not be wrong, but if it has the wrong priority, perhaps it would be.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" Matt 6:33



It is selfish if the purpose of our heart is wrong in the eyes of God. If our heart is right in His eyes then it is not.



What are the basics? If we lived in Haiti, for most of us one decent meal every day would be basic, would it not? I heard a true story once of a missionary in Haiti who tried to feed those people who came to him for food. He had limited supplies so he would ask them how long it had been since they had eaten. If it was less than three days, he would not give them anything. Should we average Americans who throw away more each day in table scraps than the average Haitian consumes criticize that missionary?

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Wow! All this philosophising is not what we are to be doing my friend....We are to be doing what the Word says...As you say. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you" You are right though in one area.....motive...."Ye receive not because you ask not, or you ask and receive not because you ask amiss.(for all the wrong reasons) I do not expect God to prosper me so I can sit back and get fat, and live a life of luxury while others starve...Since Christians see prosperity only as money that's all I'll talk about here...Money is like water, if it flows it will stay fresh and give life but if it is dammed up...it grows stagnant and rotten, drink that water and you will get sick... Money is a tool, its used to buy the necessities of life and to pay for the same for others who have no money...

As Christians, we have a job to do...Why is it that so many Christians try to do it without tools? That's not faith its simple stupidity...And you say we should give according to our means....That simply shoves aside the minister of our seed, the one who gives us the seed to sow...That move is based on pride not faith or love.....So Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and get our of the way because prosperity IS coming your way...If you don't want it....give it away...Just don't let pride or religion get in the way

Bendito said:

Wow! All this philosophising is not what we are to be doing my friend....We are to be doing what the Word says...As you say. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you" You are right though in one area.....motive...."Ye receive not because you ask not, or you ask and receive not because you ask amiss.(for all the wrong reasons) I do not expect God to prosper me so I can sit back and get fat, and live a life of luxury while others starve...Since Christians see prosperity only as money that's all I'll talk about here...Money is like water, if it flows it will stay fresh and give life but if it is dammed up...it grows stagnant and rotten, drink that water and you will get sick... Money is a tool, its used to buy the necessities of life and to pay for the same for others who have no money...

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Oh you are right my friend. I just wanted to be sure you knew where you were.

Philosophising? No, I simply strive to do it right each day as it happens and as God directs. Hypothetical questions can cause a lot of problems for people and that includes me. With an invalid wife, there is not too much stepping out and there is not a lot in the natural physical world that interests me any more anyway. Our own home was gone several years back and we'll likely pay rent for the rest of our days.

I have my computers, my books and my piano. My stamp collection is slowly but surely being sold and being reinvested into other things as God directs. We've had money, but now we have God and necessities. The non-necessities that remain are being trimmed away. What a great God we serve.

As Christians, we have a job to do...Why is it that so many Christians try to do it without tools? That's not faith its simple stupidity...And you say we should give according to our means....That simply shoves aside the minister of our seed, the one who gives us the seed to sow...That move is based on pride not faith or love.....So Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and get our of the way because prosperity IS coming your way...If you don't want it....give it away...Just don't let pride or religion get in the way

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Well prosperity in this world means little to me. Much of what I have had has already given away, but my God continues to supply my physical as well as my spiritual needs. I still fail Him too often, but I hope that I am increasing more than I am decreasing.

Give God the glory!

Bendito said:

When you serve a mighty God the only direction is up

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Aye. Nations are made up of citizens who individuals. It's the choosing of the individual citizen whom they prefer to follow spiritually that determines the outcome. As you know, the USA gives its citizens the right to choose their spiritual guide. What protects Christianity also protects Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, etc. In recent decades, an increasingly larger number of immigrants do not practice Christianity. Therefore, it is incumbent upon Christians to "go into the world and preach the Gospel" especially in their own neighbourhood if the citizens truly wish to call their country a Christian nation. Just sayin'.

Bendito said:

I'm in favor of all that is written in the Word! The Word talks a lot about God prospering His people even while we're in the Earth....Someone is lying Either God is lying about prosperity or people are....and I choose people.... If you choose to believe that prosperity is not for Gods people now and in heaven....well...... Get into the Word and talk to the Word about it....Never mind what people say....What does God say?

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your nuts brother best of luck to you

So...I went to Calgary Alberta Canada to take in the Canadian Victory Campaign put on by Kenneth Copeland Ministries Thursday afternoon to Saturday evening...In fact it ended about two hours ago...
What I saw there is unlike anything I've seen in any church I've ever been to in all North America....The love of God pouring out of that man was phenomenal! Never have I seen any preacher surrender himself so completely to the leading of the Holy Spirit, or walk in such love for the people he was ministering to....One man came in and wanted prayer...He stank enough to make a billy goat puke, yet Copeland ministered to him...He hugged that man till the man was shaking in tears, and then the man walked to a seat with tears running down his face and a huge smile lighting up his face...What preacher have you ever seen do that, or the like? That man met Jesus at that meeting....Oh! And Copeland didn't ask anybody for money, as the preachers in churches do....So........

Who else has gone to see Copeland first hand?

I have many times Bendito! The next time you go and see him, you tell him brother mark a fellow brother in the Lord asked you a question,and you wonder what this scripture means to him?? Since he never goes here ever. ( 1 Cor 4:10-16) Did Paul not have enough faith as he was hungry and thirsty, poorly clothed? roughly treated?? and HOMELESS???? i did ask him brother,he responded by saying,the Lord has to give you a revelation to this teaching. LOL He is very nice! How could he not be?? He has his own airport in Texas! Did you know he used to be the pilot for Oral Roberts? It is true he was. When reality does set in one day for you,i will never say I told you so!! Promise!! I will help you as best i can, the same way i was helped!( 2 Cor 2:17) Blessing bro!! i sure understand your mindset!!

Brighthouse said:

I have many times Bendito! The next time you go and see him, you tell him brother mark a fellow brother in the Lord asked you a question,and you wonder what this scripture means to him?? Since he never goes here ever. ( 1 Cor 4:10-16) Did Paul not have enough faith as he was hungry and thirsty, poorly clothed? roughly treated?? and HOMELESS???? i did ask him brother,he responded by saying,the Lord has to give you a revelation to this teaching. LOL He is very nice! How could he not be?? He has his own airport in Texas! Did you know he used to be the pilot for Oral Roberts? It is true he was. When reality does set in one day for you,i will never say I told you so!! Promise!! I will help you as best i can, the same way i was helped!( 2 Cor 2:17) Blessing bro!! i sure understand your mindset!!

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In truth my friend, I've followed his ministry since 1974 I know this man quite well...I also know that what he teaches is right in line with the Word. I do my own searching into the Word to verify everything a preaches tells me.

Brighthouse said:

I have many times Bendito! The next time you go and see him, you tell him brother mark a fellow brother in the Lord asked you a question,and you wonder what this scripture means to him?? Since he never goes here ever. ( 1 Cor 4:10-16) Did Paul not have enough faith as he was hungry and thirsty, poorly clothed? roughly treated?? and HOMELESS???? i did ask him brother,he responded by saying,the Lord has to give you a revelation to this teaching. LOL He is very nice! How could he not be?? He has his own airport in Texas! Did you know he used to be the pilot for Oral Roberts? It is true he was. When reality does set in one day for you,i will never say I told you so!! Promise!! I will help you as best i can, the same way i was helped!( 2 Cor 2:17) Blessing bro!! i sure understand your mindset!!

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So tell me brother....Did Jesus lack faith when they tried to toss Him off a cliff? Did He lack faith when they whipped him?....When they crucified Him? The world hates us because it hated Jesus
Is there a problem with Copeland being a pilot for Oral Roberts? Being a pilot is really cool...Ooohhhh! Do you have a problem with Oral Roberts too?

Brighthouse said:

I have many times Bendito! The next time you go and see him, you tell him brother mark a fellow brother in the Lord asked you a question,and you wonder what this scripture means to him?? Since he never goes here ever. ( 1 Cor 4:10-16) Did Paul not have enough faith as he was hungry and thirsty, poorly clothed? roughly treated?? and HOMELESS???? i did ask him brother,he responded by saying,the Lord has to give you a revelation to this teaching. LOL He is very nice! How could he not be?? He has his own airport in Texas! Did you know he used to be the pilot for Oral Roberts? It is true he was. When reality does set in one day for you,i will never say I told you so!! Promise!! I will help you as best i can, the same way i was helped!( 2 Cor 2:17) Blessing bro!! i sure understand your mindset!!

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Job is the greatest man of faith in the whole bible imho. ''They'' spin the concept of faith 100% on its head. It takes faith to love God whilst in hell. Not to have things. Having things / needs met is a given / should be a dead obvious given, given God of the universe died for us. I read Jesus as being borderline sarcastic in Matt 6:26. Especially for Christians. Quite insane to think Christians have trusting issues in God's provision / meeting our needs when we know and fully believe He..... died for us.