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Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
131
Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing. The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal – no matter how many bad and evil sins that person may commit after getting saved.

Others believe that God will not be mocked and that you can lose your salvation if you get into some of the more heavier and evil types of sins.

I believe there are several verses in Scripture that really do answer this question – with one verse in particular. After studying these verses very carefully, it is my own personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However, I do believe that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen.

I believe that the seal we have with the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal – but that it can be broken if that person with their own free will has chosen to live this life on the darker side. I will go ahead and give you the main verses from Scripture that deal with this possibility. You will each have to judge and discern for yourself whether or not you feel these verses are implying that a Christian can lose their salvation.

For those of you who are really wanting an answer on this issue – I would highly recommend that you study these verses very carefully, and then ask God the Father, through the Holy Spirit, to give you His direct answer on this issue due to the extreme importance of it.
1. A Falling Away

In my opinion, this first verse hits the nail right on the head. Here is the verse, and then I will point out several key phrases showing that it might be possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8)

First notice the specific wording being used to describe what I believe is a saved and born again Christian:

* Those who were once enlightened
* Have tasted the heavenly gift
* Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
* Have tasted the good Word of God


You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you are saved and born again. Only Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them like Christians do. You can only be a partaker of the Holy Spirit if you already have Him living on the inside of you.

Only a Christian can truly “taste the good Word of God.” Unless you have the Holy Spirit living on the inside you – you can never fully understand the Bible because all of the Bible was really written by God the Father through the Holy Spirit. Much of the Bible has to be spiritually discerned and this is done by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the job of Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to guide us into all truth.

As a result of the Holy Spirit helping you to understand the Bible when you are reading it – you then start to become “enlightened” as the above verse states. You cannot become truly “enlightened” unless you already have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you and He is working with you to help you understand the spiritual truths that are in the Bible.

Put it all together – you cannot be truly enlightened, be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have the ability to “taste” the Word of God and the powers of the age to come unless you are a born-again Christian. I believe these specific words being used are showing that this verse is specifically talking about Christians.

And then watch what it says next: “For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …”

I think the key words in those phrases are “if they fall away.” What is considered a “falling away?” Obviously God the Father will be the final judge on what is considered a falling away from Him.

A good example might be someone who turns completely to the dark side and decides he wants to worship Satan direct as a result of the wealth and power that Satan may be able to give him while he is still living down here on this earth. There have been documented cases of priests and ministers who have literally “sold out” to the devil in exchange for more of the material and lustful pleasures of this life. They have literally become true Satan worshipers. I personally think something like this would qualify as a “falling away” – a deliberate turning away from God to serve His adversary, the Devil.

Other extreme examples would be Christians who have decided to join and live in some type of organized crime, who get into killing and murdering others for their own gain and profit, men who become rapists or serial killers, etc. As you will see in some of the other verses listed below, God will not be mocked. I believe that some of these heavier types of sins can cause a Christian to lose their salvation if they do not get these heavier types of sins confessed and forgiven with the Lord before they die.

Notice the above verse also says that: “For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance” if they fall away into the more heavier types of sins. The key word is “impossible” – meaning that God is not going to allow them to come back in after they have probably passed what may be considered some kind of “point of no return” with Him. The Bible tells us that the Spirit of God will not strive with a man forever.

Put all of the above together – and I think that the above verse is telling us that it is definitely possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if the “falling away” is considered to be serious enough and extreme enough in the eyes of God.
2. Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth

This next verse is another real scary verse. The above verse talks about a “falling away” that could cause you to lose your salvation. This next verse goes another step further and specifically talks about “sinning willfully” after we have already received the knowledge of the truth from God. Here it is:

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.


Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Notice the first part of this verse says that if we “sin willfully” after having already received the knowledge of the truth. Again, I believe this wording could be implying that we are talking about Christians.

The second part of this verse seems to confirm that possibility when it talks about trampling Jesus underfoot and insulting the Spirit of grace, which is the Holy Spirit Himself. Then notice it says that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” in direct reference to the statement about sinning willfully after having already received the knowledge of the truth.

I believe the words “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” is implying a definite loss of salvation if someone has pushed the envelope to far with God the Father.
3. Becoming Entangled Again in the Pollutions of the World

Here is another verse that matches up with the verse mentioned above. It talks about, after having already received the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the dangers of returning back again to the “pollutions of the world” from which we have just come out of. Here it is:

“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20)

Again, I believe this verse is specifically talking about Christians when it talks about escaping the pollutions of this world “through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” You cannot have true knowledge about Jesus unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior.

Notice this verse specifically states that it would be much worse for you to have become saved and then turn back to your old sinful ways into the pollutions of this world than to never have become saved in the first place.

The key phrase in this verse is “the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.” The word “beginning” is referring back to when we were not saved. If you are not saved, you cannot make it into heaven. What could be worse than never being saved in the first place. However, this verse is going one step further and it is literally telling us that it would be worse for us, after initially getting saved, if we once more return back to the sins that we were operating in before we got saved.

If that is worse than never getting saved in the first place – then I believe this verse is another one telling us that it is possible to lose your salvation after initially getting saved.
4. 22 Specific Sins That Could Keep You Out of Heaven

If some of the above verses are possibly implying that you can lose your salvation – then what are some of the specific sins that could cause you to lose your salvation? These next two verses will give you some of those specific sins.

Are these next two verses talking about Christians or nonbelievers? If you match these two verses up with the ones listed above – then I believe that some of these sins, if being committed by Christians on a regular and frequent basis, could get them into major trouble with the Lord and possibly be endangering their salvation with Him. Here they are:

1. “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9)

2. “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19)


Notice that the sin of adultery is specifically mentioned in both verses. Does this mean any Christian who regularly cheats on their spouse may be in danger of losing their salvation? Maybe God is thinking that if you cannot stay faithful and loyal to your spouse, then maybe you will not be able to stay faithful and loyal to Him for all of eternity once you enter into heaven.

Look at what happened to Satan and one third of all the angels. They could not stay faithful and loyal to the Lord for the long run, and as a result, they tried to rebel against Him and were eventually thrown right out of heaven!

The word “sodomite” refers to a man having sexual relations with another man – which is another word for describing the sin of homosexuality. According to Webster’s dictionary, the word “licentiousness” refers to one who “disregards accepted rules and standards, one who is morally unrestrained, especially in sexual matters.”

There is no doubt that the above two verses are talking about nonbelievers. But is it also talking about Christians? I guess we will all find out once we cross over into heaven and see who has made it and who has not. But I would not want to be taking any chances with the Lord by wallowing in any of the above sins on any type of regular and frequent basis.
5. Not Everyone Who Calls Jesus “Lord, Lord” Will Make it Into Heaven

This next powerful verse is coming directly from Jesus Himself. He specifically states that not everyone who calls Him “Lord, Lord” is going to make it into heaven, but only those who do the will of God the Father.

The key word in this verse is the word “will” – the will of God the Father. What is the will of God the Father? One of His definite “wills” is that we stay out of serious sin – especially some of the specific sins mentioned in the above two verses.

When Jesus is using the words of those calling Him “Lord, Lord” – is He referring to Christians or nonbelievers? I personally believe that He may be referring to Christians. How can you truly call Jesus “Lord, Lord” unless you have become saved and born again by accepting Him as your “Lord” and Savior.

If Jesus is specifically referring to Christians with this phrase – then this is another verse that is showing that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation. Once you have become saved, and then you go back or start to enter into some of the heavier sin areas – which would be going against the “will” of God the Father – then I believe that you could be endangering your own personal salvation with the Lord.

I believe this verse is also telling us that God will not be mocked! You cannot accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and then turn around and start to enter into some of these heavier sin areas – and then think you can get away with it and that God will just look the other way.

The sins of adultery and homosexuality are two very scary sins for any Christian to want to engage in with the way some of the above verses are worded. I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in these two sins or any of the other sins mentioned in the above two verses.

Here is the verse:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21)

Notice that Jesus is specifically talking about people who have prophesied and cast out demons in His name. Is Jesus referring direct to Christians? I believe that He is, especially on the second act that these people had been doing – casting demons out of people in His name.

An unbeliever cannot cast demons out of someone because they do not have the legal authority to be able to do so. Demons are cast out of people by the power of the Holy Spirit. You have to have the Holy Spirit and His power living and operating on the inside of you before you can cast demons out of someone. Only born-again Christians have the Holy Spirit living and operating on the inside of them – unbelievers do not! As a result, unbelievers do not have the power of the Holy Spirit or the legal authority from God the Father to cast demons out of anyone, including themselves if they have been caught in their death grip.

Two Scripture verses will back this up. In Acts 19:13-16, several Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call on the name of Jesus to try and cast demons out of several people. When they tried to cast these demons out in the name of Jesus, one of the evil spirits replied back to him stating that they knew Jesus and Paul, but they did not know him.

Then the man who had the demon in him jumped on the Jewish exorcists, overpowered them and literally “prevailed” against them. The men then ran out of the house “naked and wounded.” In other words, the Jewish exorcists had no divine power or authority to be trying to take these demons on and not only were they not able to cast the demons out, but the demons were allowed to physically attack them and were able to drive them right out of the house without a stitch of clothing left on them! And these men were Jewish men – not total unbelievers.

Here is the verse giving us this specific information:

“Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches … And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.” (Acts 19:13-16)


Notice in the first verse listed above that Jesus is not contesting that these people really were casting demons out of people in His name. I believe He is directly acknowledging that these people really were casting demons out in His name. And if Jesus is acknowledging that fact – then these people have to be born-again Christians – because only born-again Christians have the power of the Holy Spirit operating on the inside of them to be able to cast demons out of anyone.

I have heard some scholars argue that the people Jesus is referring to in this verse were unbelievers, not saved Christians. These unbelievers were then casting demons out of people and prophesying in His name as a direct result of operating under some kind of demonic influence or possession. In other words, they were all doing this operating under the power of a demonic spirit rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. However, the second verse stated above is telling us that unbelievers cannot cast demons out of people, even if they are operating under some kind of demonic influence and power.

Another very powerful verse to help back up the revelation that demons are not going to be casting out other demons in a person is found in Mark 3:20-30. In this verse, the Scribes are accusing Jesus of casting demons out of people by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons.

Jesus then responds back stating that Satan is not going to be casting out Satan and that a kingdom will not be be able to stand if it becomes divided against itself. In other words, not even Satan or one of his demons are going to try and cast out other demons in a person, as they would just be defeating their own purposes in trying to do so.

If Satan or one of demons are not going to be casting demons out of anyone, and if unbelievers do not have the power or authority to be able to cast out demons – then the people Jesus is referring to in this first verse have to be born-again Christians – not unbelievers.

And then notice what Jesus says next – that He will tell them to depart from Him and that He never knew them because they “practice lawlessness.” The keys words as to why they may lose their salvation in Him is due to the fact that they were “practicing” lawlessness.

The word “practice” means someone who is deliberately, intentionally and willfully breaking and going against some of God’s basic laws and commandments on some kind of a regular basis. It is someone who is doing this on a regular and consistent basis, not someone who is just occasionally slipping up.

Again, I believe that Jesus is giving us a major clue in this verse in that He is really talking about Christians, not unbelievers. And if He is, then this verse is more powerful proof that a Christian can lose their salvation if they push the envelope too far and for too long with the Lord with no intentions of ever pulling out of their sinful behaviors and no remorse for doing it in the first place.
6. A Sin Leading to Death

This next verse is very interesting. It talks about a sin that could lead to death and a sin that will not lead to death. I believe that the word “death” could be referring to the deaths of our souls once we die and cross cover – which would mean going straight to hell when we die. Again, is this verse referring to Christians?

If it is, then it is definitely delineating between certain types of sins. It is implying that some sins are obviously worse than others. Some of these sins could cause us to lose our salvation and other types of sins will not. Here is the verse:

“There is a sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.” (1 John 5:16-17)


God will obviously be the final judge on what sins could lead to death and which ones will not. But again, as a Christian, I would not want to be tempting my eternal fate with God the Father by engaging in some of the heavier sins mentioned in the above verses – thinking that God will look the other way just because we got saved earlier on in our lives.
7. Fallen From Grace

The Bible specifically tells us that we are “saved by grace.” However, this next verse specifically says that we can “fall from grace.” If you put both of these phrases right next to one another – then I believe they could be telling us that a Christian could lose their salvation.

I believe that the words “fallen from grace” means exactly what it is saying. If we have been “saved by grace” – then we can also “fall from that same saving grace.” This might be another powerful verse from the Lord showing that we can lose our salvation.

Notice also in the first part of this verse where it talks about becoming “estranged from Christ.” If you put those three words right next to the words “fallen from grace” – and they are all in the same verse – then once again I believe the implication may really be there that you can lose your salvation and that another phrase to describe losing your salvation with God and Jesus is “falling from grace” – falling from the saving grace which initially got you saved in the first place!

Here is the verse:

“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)


Put this verse together with all of the other ones mentioned above – and the Scriptural evidence may really be there that a Christian could possibly lose their salvation if they try and push the envelope to far with God the Father by falling into and engaging in some of the heavier type sins as described above.
8. Having Your Name “Blotted Out” From the Book of Life

I will leave with you with one very scary, intense verse from the Bible. This verse is coming direct from Jesus Himself from the Book of Revelation.

“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Revelation 3:5)

The Book of Life is a Book that has every single saved and born again believer recorded in it. Once you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, your name is then written and recorded in this Book.

But notice what Jesus says in reference to this specific Book. He specifically says that he who “overcomes” will not have his name “blotted out” from this Book. The word “blot” means “to rub or wipe out, to erase or get rid of.”

The fact that Jesus is telling us that our names can literally be blotted out from this Book is just another major piece of Scriptural evidence showing us that we can lose our salvation with Him. If your name could not be blotted out from this Book, then Jesus would have never made this specific statement. But since He did, I believe this is another powerful Scripture verse that is showing us that we can lose our salvation in Him.

Also notice the specific word that Jesus is using to tie in this possibility – the word “overcomes.” What is it that Jesus wants us to overcome? One of the things that He definitely wants us to overcome is the temptation to fall and enter into some of these heavier sin areas. The Bible tells us that we must “endure” temptation.

To endure a temptation means you do not give into it, you do not cross the line – but if by chance you do fall into a specific temptation, to immediately pull out of it as soon as you can. If you do not, and you do not overcome and pull out of this temptation within the time span that God is giving you to pull out of it, then your name could be blotted out from His Book of Life for all of eternity!

The other thing to pick up with the specific wording that Jesus is using in this verse is that once He blots out your name from His Book of Life – it will be for all of eternity. There will be no second or third chance to get back in once you have been officially erased from His Book – just like the first verse I listed at the beginning of this article is telling us.

There is no other indication in this verse or any other verses in the Bible that this blotting out of your name can be reversed or rescinded. The tone and straight forward way this verse is being worded is all showing us that not only can person’s name be actually blotted out from this Book, but that once it is, it will be for all of eternity.

Again, if this was not an actual possibility, then Jesus would have never worded this verse the way He did. But the fact that He is specifically using the words of having your own personal name blotted out from His Book of Life is all showing us that this is a definite possibility if we have gone too far and wallowed too long in a heavier sin area.
Conclusion

You will each have to come to your own conclusions as to whether or not you feel a Christian can lose their salvation with the way all of the above verses are worded. I personally believe that all of the above verses mean exactly what they are saying.

If you put all of the above verses together and right next to one another like you would pieces to a jigsaw puzzle – then I believe that God the Father is giving us major insight and revelation that a Christian can lose their salvation if he “falls away,” if he “falls from grace,” if he becomes “estranged from Christ,” if he gets involved in a “sin that leads to death,” if he goes against the “will” of God the Father, if he returns once again to the “pollutions of the world” and if he “sins willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth” that is contained in both God and Jesus.

I personally believe that all of the above verses, and specifically some of the key phrases mentioned in these verses, are simply way too much Scriptural evidence all showing that it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

God and His Word will not be mocked. He will not put up with some of His own falling into some of these heavier type sins – and then think that He will turn a blind eye to their sins, while all the while condoning their sinful activities thinking that the Blood of Jesus will keep them covered till the day they die.

I am afraid some Christians, who are living in some of these heavier type sins on a regular and frequent basis with no intentions of trying to pull out of them, are going to be in for a very big surprise once they die and cross over and have to meet the Lord for their own personal, final judgment.

Again, it would be our strong recommendation that you go direct to God the Father in prayer and ask Him to show you what the real truth is on this matter. All of the above are just our thoughts and our opinions on this very controversial issue. For the record, I hope that I am really wrong on my assessment on the above Scripture verses, as I would never want anyone to lose their salvation in the Lord.


Source : I did not write this, i was reasearching this topic and i found this. If any of you want the website where i got it from then pm me.


God Bless :)
 
Wow! This was all pretty convincing. Although I think the sin of covetousness is the same in God's eyes as the sin of adultery. That would make it even more dangerous I guess. Even look at the sin of idolatry. I would think any of these sins, if committed continually, would separate us from God eventually. But that's just my thought.

However, your post has certainly made me think. Thanx for posting.
 
In God's sight no sin is greater than the other, to him if you break one it's like you broke em all. Glad you enjoyed :wink:
 
In God's sight no sin is greater than the other, to him if you break one it's like you broke em all. Glad you enjoyed :wink:
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


One must understand that while we follow after righteousness that we can never be good enough. It is only in the imputed righteousness of God in Jesus Christ that I may stand in front of a holy God. It is in that same imputed righteousness that I am welcome as a son in my Father's house.
So while sin is never to be embraced but rather rejected one should focus on growing in Christ and abiding in the Vine.
Rather than repeatedly focusing on working out problems in our flesh (which will consume all ones energy and is indeed in a never ending supply) one should die to that old self and be alive to God in Christ. Other than that one will find themselves exhausted, frustrated and still quite bound in the flesh. This freedom can only be accomplished in one way:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Only in absolute dependence on and only completely in the power of (each step walking by faith that His power is working in you) can you ever really hope to be free. Anything else is self righteousness and that is again just the flesh trying to feel good about itself through religious practice.
 
I will admit I did not read the whole original post, but I will try to answer the question to the best of my knowledge of scripture.

First of all I would like to address this

"Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing."

Remember that we all are sinners and we will sin, but we must depend on the Holy Spirit moment by moment so that we can keep away from sin. That does not mean we will not sin, of course we will as Christians, but we must confess it and we will be restored. The only sin that will send one to eternal separation from God is rejecting Jesus Christ.

Now to address "Once saved always saved?"

Let's take a look at John 6 "<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26284">37</sup>All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26285">38</sup>For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26286">39</sup>And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26287">40</sup>For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus states that all the people who believe in Him and accept Him as savior, will not be lost hence the "I will never drive away," never means never. It is the will of God that he loses none, not even one. If one were to be lost that would make God a liar.

Next John 10:<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26498">27</sup>My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26499">28</sup>I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26500">29</sup>My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-26500d&quot; title=&quot;See footnote d&quot;>d</a>]">[d]</sup>; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26501">30</sup>I and the Father are one."

No one can snatch the sheep (true born-again believers) out of Christ's hand or out of the Father's hand, and that is total security.

One might say "Well that means I can go out and sin all I want and still get to heaven!"

Well I don't think a true born-again believer wants to sin. Two years ago I became born-again, and sin just hurt me, I do my best to walk with the Holy Spirit moment by moment to not sin. Now of course I do, but I confess it once that happens. If someone is born-again they don't want to sin because they have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

The second point is that if we continue to sin, we are not doing the will of God and our focus is not on God, but on our fleshly desires. Remember all true Christians will stand at the Judgment Seat Of Christ and our works will be tested by fire. That means if we don't try our best to do the will of God and the work he has provisioned for us, we will lose eternal rewards, so you make the choice.

I don't think eternal security is ever preached because they are afraid that will give a license for Christians to sin, but as I pointed out above, I don't think true born-again believers want to sin.

Hope this helps, feel free to discuss. Again I apologize for not going through the entire original post and debating the scriptures that point against eternal security.
 
Let me give you all one example,and then you decide.matt 10 please read 1-4 now please read verses 8 no unbeliever or unsaved person can do this,because they have no anointing to do this. Judas was among them.He was a believer and just as saved as the rest. Some say no he was not really saved,if that is true,then none of them were,for we know, that you cannot take a part of the Word to fit what we want! And if none were, then none under the anointing of Christ could ever have done this. remember john 14:12-14? Judas was just as much as saved as Peter who denyed Christ 3 times,the difference was the very will of Peter over Judas. We have free will,we are not like trains on a railroad track,going only one way, we can move away if we wish to.John 3;3 was given but look at verse 8! The wind will blow where it wishes!So is EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit,which they all were.Are we not all tempted? Do we all not go through trials? Can one who is saved, which is a believer,both mean the same,for faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the Word of God rom 10:17.look at another example please.Matt 25:31-46,all here believe they will enter,the sheep and the goats,the only difference between the two,is what they did,or didn't do. Both asked the Lord the same question.Both sides believed,but one side was a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.James 1:22 The other, the goats,heard the Word,but the seed they had planted was not on good ground.hence the parable of the sower soeth the Word, found in matt 13, please look at verse 19-23 Our will!How far in Christ do we want to go in him? If we could not lose salvation,we would never have to be concerned with this! Phil 2:12 Work out your own salvation!!! with fear and trembling! We would have no need to ever do that!!,But yet here, we find we are to do that!what about this? we would have no need to eximine ourselfves daily either!!2 Cor13:5 fail the test?? You mean you can fail the test,after being saved?? YES!!! You sure can! Many Churches are teaching an easy religion,once you accept Christ you are saved,which is TRUE!! PROVIDING!!!! You live as if you really do believe! For what? Faith without works is dead! Salvation is FREE!! But to keep it,one must walk in it!! Col 2:6-10 Judas decided to give it up!! Luke 22:3 then took place,and what did Jesus say to Judas!!! Luke 22:22WOE!!to that man by whom he is betrayed. Judas changed his mine,and went to hell because of it. I really do not see anything more clear to me in the Word.To those who believe once obtaining salvation we can noever lose it,are only fooling themselves in a plain out right lie! Salvation is free!! and free to give away as well! Perhaps a little to blunt? please forgive me,but I am worn out hearing an out right lie,when the Word is most clear to me. If I give you a brand new car tomorrow,you know what!! You will keep that brand new car, for as long as YOU WANT to!! Or like Judas we will sell it off, to gain something else in its place! He sold out Christ for hell!! Let us never do that!! amen!!
 
We became sinners due to Adam's disobedience. No matter what GOOD deeds we do, we are still sinners.

That is until we accept Jesus as our personal Savior.

Then, we become righteous due to Jesus' obedience. No matter what you do, you are ALWAYS righteous through Christ. It's not what we do, it's not who we are... It is what He did and who He is.

If we think that we can lose salvation by doing bad deeds, then we are saying that Jesus' obedience is less than Adam's disobedience.
 
I will admit I did not read the whole original post, but I will try to answer the question to the best of my knowledge of scripture.

First of all I would like to address this

"Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing."

Remember that we all are sinners and we will sin, but we must depend on the Holy Spirit moment by moment so that we can keep away from sin. That does not mean we will not sin, of course we will as Christians, but we must confess it and we will be restored. The only sin that will send one to eternal separation from God is rejecting Jesus Christ.

Now to address "Once saved always saved?"

Let's take a look at John 6 "<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26284">37</sup>All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26285">38</sup>For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26286">39</sup>And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26287">40</sup>For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus states that all the people who believe in Him and accept Him as savior, will not be lost hence the "I will never drive away," never means never. It is the will of God that he loses none, not even one. If one were to be lost that would make God a liar.

Next John 10:<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26498">27</sup>My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26499">28</sup>I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26500">29</sup>My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-26500d&quot; title=&quot;See footnote d&quot;>d</a>]">[d]</sup>; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26501">30</sup>I and the Father are one."

No one can snatch the sheep (true born-again believers) out of Christ's hand or out of the Father's hand, and that is total security.

One might say "Well that means I can go out and sin all I want and still get to heaven!"

Well I don't think a true born-again believer wants to sin. Two years ago I became born-again, and sin just hurt me, I do my best to walk with the Holy Spirit moment by moment to not sin. Now of course I do, but I confess it once that happens. If someone is born-again they don't want to sin because they have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

The second point is that if we continue to sin, we are not doing the will of God and our focus is not on God, but on our fleshly desires. Remember all true Christians will stand at the Judgment Seat Of Christ and our works will be tested by fire. That means if we don't try our best to do the will of God and the work he has provisioned for us, we will lose eternal rewards, so you make the choice.

I don't think eternal security is ever preached because they are afraid that will give a license for Christians to sin, but as I pointed out above, I don't think true born-again believers want to sin.

Hope this helps, feel free to discuss. Again I apologize for not going through the entire original post and debating the scriptures that point against eternal security.

You said:
Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing."


I believe in "Once Saved Always Saved". I think it would better be said: " Once truly saved, always saved".

With regards to your above statement, it is not that we don't continue to sin but, to do it as you imply above, reminds me of a person that probably wasn't saved in the first place.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 is often misunderstood. Paul himself is saying it is impossible to be unsaved once you have been saved. There would be no problem with Paul and his connotation of the word saved; it would mean truly saved.

Our society classifies many in this world to be Christian. But, many in this classification is in name only because many are not true Christians. Only a person "Born Again" is a true and saved Christian.

Jesus told Nicodemus that you have two births, one of your earthly parents and one of the Spirit. He said that to see the Kingdom of God, you must have the second birth or the Spiritual birth, you are saved by the Spiritual Birth.
Now, if your going to see the Kingdom of God, there is no losing your salvation; once you are born by either birth, there is no such thing as being un-born!

A true Christian knows that we all look at our sins but we also know that God said he doesn't!!!
 
My belief is that we are saved, as long as we stay saved. This is what I teach and advise.

Paul spoke of a dear brother called Demas who left him, 'having loved this present evil world' 2 Tim 4:10. We hear no more of Demas.
He went back.

"God is merciful, slow to anger and plentious in mercy" "...God remembers mercy"

We read the scripture and make our judgment as we understand the reading. I feel that it is best to teach that we are saved as long as we stay saved, however we may interpret the scripture.

Narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mtt 7:14. Jesus said.

I am hoping to see that revival "when the glory of the Lord covers the earth, as the waters cover the sea"
When His presence is know in a mighty way.

"Whosoever drinks said Jesus, shall never thirst again.

Having tasted, all else fails to quench my thirst.
 
My belief is that we are saved, as long as we stay saved. This is what I teach and advise.

Paul spoke of a dear brother called Demas who left him, 'having loved this present evil world' 2 Tim 4:10. We hear no more of Demas.
He went back.

"God is merciful, slow to anger and plentious in mercy" "...God remembers mercy"

We read the scripture and make our judgment as we understand the reading. I feel that it is best to teach that we are saved as long as we stay saved, however we may interpret the scripture.

Narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mtt 7:14. Jesus said.

I am hoping to see that revival "when the glory of the Lord covers the earth, as the waters cover the sea"
When His presence is know in a mighty way.

"Whosoever drinks said Jesus, shall never thirst again.

Having tasted, all else fails to quench my thirst.

as long as we stay saved

With all due respect, that is what I was saying: To be "Born Again", born of the spirit, there is no such thing as becoming un-born!
God said that he would never leave us!

Whosoever drinks said Jesus, shall never thirst again.

That's what Jesus said, you can't be un-born!

I feel it and I believe! I think very much that this is one of the truths that Jesus was referring to when he said that the "truth" will set you free!!
 
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In God's sight no sin is greater than the other, to him if you break one it's like you broke em all. Glad you enjoyed :wink:

Oh really ?
Jn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
 
as long as we stay saved

With all due respect, that is what I was saying: To be "Born Again", born of the spirit, there is no such thing as becoming un-born!
God said that he would never leave us!

Whosoever drinks said Jesus, shall never thirst again.

That's what Jesus said, you can't be un-born!

I feel it and I believe! I think very much that this is one of the truths that Jesus was referring to when he said that the "truth" will set you free!!

Colossians 1:27

27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory.

And he said that he would never leave!
 
Oh really ?
Jn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

With all do respect, yours is a "out of context" reply and has nothing to do with how God looks at sin!

Jn 19:11 Jesus was talking to Pilate and he was making an ironic statement. He was comparing himself with Judas. He was essentially telling Pilate that he should be killing Judas because he is the one who sinned, where as Jesus had done nothing wrong. Judas having a greater sin than Jesus, absurd and absurd that Pilate was considering killing Jesus and absurd that you try to compare Judas to Jesus.

Sin is sin!
 
Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

I am of the very strong conviction that Eternal Security is a Biblical doctrine and anything else is a deceit from Hell. I will do my best to respond to sections of this post while also introducing new content of my own.

There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing. The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal – no matter how many bad and evil sins that person may commit after getting saved.

This is a common misconception from those who do not believe in Eternal Security. For instance, Calvinists fully embrace this doctrine but a Calvinist will not say a person can do whatever they want and still be saved. However, a non-Calvinist, who does not properly understand Calvinism, will say this is what Calvinists believe. In much the same way, those who say a man can do whatever he wants and still be saved is ignorant to what the Word of God says. I know very few Christians who hold this stance yet I know many people who think this is the common belief of Christians.

Others believe that God will not be mocked and that you can lose your salvation if you get into some of the more heavier and evil types of sins.

Yet this is not a Biblical stance whatsoever. It tends to be the opinion of those who rely too heavily on opinion.

I believe there are several verses in Scripture that really do answer this question – with one verse in particular. After studying these verses very carefully, it is my own personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However, I do believe that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen.

I know you said you did not write this so I do not know if this is your actual opinion but, if it is, I am hoping my post will change this and give you a bit more confidence in the power of God, His love, and the regeneration from the Spirit.

I believe that the seal we have with the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal – but that it can be broken if that person with their own free will has chosen to live this life on the darker side.

In other words, the Spirit is strong but man is stronger. Hmmmm.....

1. A Falling Away

In my opinion, this first verse hits the nail right on the head. Here is the verse, and then I will point out several key phrases showing that it might be possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

First notice the specific wording being used to describe what I believe is a saved and born again Christian:

* Those who were once enlightened
* Have tasted the heavenly gift
* Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
* Have tasted the good Word of God

This is a very common verse used to justify "temporal" security but it is not accurate. Hopefully, you will see why after this.

You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you are saved and born again. Only Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them like Christians do. You can only be a partaker of the Holy Spirit if you already have Him living on the inside of you.

First of all, this is inaccurate to begin with. While a non-Christian will never have the Spirit reside in them, this does not mean they are incapable of partaking of the blessings of the Holy Spirit or being affected by Him.

Matthew 5:45 said:
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Here, we can see what is commonly referred to as common grace or common blessing. We see that even the evil men receive a certain level of blessing from God. Moving on, we see something even more specific in 2 Peter 2:

2 Peter 2:20-21 said:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

It would be easy to think this is referring to a back-slidden Christian. However, the full context shows that this is not referring to a believer at all. It is referring to a false prophet. Despite this, it uses phrases like "escaped defilements of the world" and "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." It even speaks of them as having known the way of righteousness. Again, all this would lead someone to believe it is speaking of one who has lost their salvation but we all know this is not the case regarding the reference to false prophets. It is merely referring to someone who has all the head knowledge possible yet does not clinch the eternal bond of the Spirit.

Only a Christian can truly “taste the good Word of God.” Unless you have the Holy Spirit living on the inside you – you can never fully understand the Bible because all of the Bible was really written by God the Father through the Holy Spirit. Much of the Bible has to be spiritually discerned and this is done by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the job of Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to guide us into all truth.

While it is true that only a Christian can truly understand the things of the Spirit, it is not true at all to say only a Christian can taste the things of the Spirit. A great point was made by Paul in 1 Corinthians on this subject.

1 Corinthians 7:14 said:
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

The use of the word "sanctified" does not mean that the unbelieving spouse is saved based on the believing spouses faith. It simply means they receive the blessing of the Spirit through the faith of the believing spouse. They may not receive salvation or the forgiveness of sins but they do receive a blessing nonetheless. It is in this sense that a non-believer can still partake of the things of the Spirit without ever having obtained regeneration/salvation from the Spirit.

As a result of the Holy Spirit helping you to understand the Bible when you are reading it – you then start to become “enlightened” as the above verse states. You cannot become truly “enlightened” unless you already have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you and He is working with you to help you understand the spiritual truths that are in the Bible.

Again, this is partially true but it is far from complete. The Greek word used for enlightened is phōtizō and is being used in the sense of being intellectually enlightened to Spiritual truths. The people being spoken of in Hebrews 6 had been made aware of Spiritual truths and they saw them for what they were but it does not give any indication to a response to the call of salvation. Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture is this phrase used to speak of salvation. It simply means they had mental knowledge of the things of the Spirit. To some extent, I am sure they also tasted the things of the Spirit albeit never tasting salvation or regeneration. It would be impossible to have been so involved in the things of the Church and not have been affected. Even the people following Christ in Matthew 5 were affected by the Light yet they did not believe despite this.

Put it all together – you cannot be truly enlightened, be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have the ability to “taste” the Word of God and the powers of the age to come unless you are a born-again Christian.

This is only a conclusion of partial Scripture being used. When taken in full context, one can see how non-believers partake in things of the Spirit all the time. They are just not privy to salvation and will never fully experience all the Spirit has to offer. Take note that the Greek word for partaker is metochos. The key thing to note here is that this word does not describe a possession. It merely refers to an association. Again, these men did not possess the Spirit. They only tasted (did not feast on) the things of the Spirit and had an association with the Spirit while never having a possession of the Spirit.

And then watch what it says next: “For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …”

I think the key words in those phrases are “if they fall away.” What is considered a “falling away?” Obviously God the Father will be the final judge on what is considered a falling away from Him.

A good example might be someone who turns completely to the dark side and decides he wants to worship Satan direct as a result of the wealth and power that Satan may be able to give him while he is still living down here on this earth. There have been documented cases of priests and ministers who have literally “sold out” to the devil in exchange for more of the material and lustful pleasures of this life. They have literally become true Satan worshipers. I personally think something like this would qualify as a “falling away” – a deliberate turning away from God to serve His adversary, the Devil.

Other extreme examples would be Christians who have decided to join and live in some type of organized crime, who get into killing and murdering others for their own gain and profit, men who become rapists or serial killers, etc. As you will see in some of the other verses listed below, God will not be mocked. I believe that some of these heavier types of sins can cause a Christian to lose their salvation if they do not get these heavier types of sins confessed and forgiven with the Lord before they die.

Notice the above verse also says that: “For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance” if they fall away into the more heavier types of sins. The key word is “impossible” – meaning that God is not going to allow them to come back in after they have probably passed what may be considered some kind of “point of no return” with Him. The Bible tells us that the Spirit of God will not strive with a man forever.

Please describe heavy sins versus light sins. I seem to forget where the Bible speaks on this. My understanding of grace is that nobody deserves it. We are all wretched sinners saved by grace. If one man is over another while in sin, it means he is more deserving of grace than the other. If a man is more deserving of grace, it stops being grace and starts becoming merit. You see the slippery slope of bad theology? We are all sinners saved by grace alone and not one deserves it more so than another based on "heaviness" of sins. This is theology of justification to make us sound like we aren't quite as wretched as Scripture declares.

To see an example of one "falling away" while never actually being saved, we need look no further than the parable of the sower and the seed. The last type was the only one that was actually a true convert. The other 3 were all false converts. The one I want to point out in particular is the one who grows a little and is then smothered by the vines of the world. The cares of this life take what little sprouting they had and kills it. This man was a partaker of the things of the Spirit yet was never truly saved. Only the one who was truly saved flourishes and receives the full blessing of the Spirit.

Put all of the above together – and I think that the above verse is telling us that it is definitely possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if the “falling away” is considered to be serious enough and extreme enough in the eyes of God.
2. Sinning Willfully After Receiving the Knowledge of the Truth

Again, Scripture does not speak of heavy sins versus light sins. This is very poor eisegesis and is to be rejected. The writer of this article is inserting his own opinion into Scripture and running with it. There is no indication of heavy sins or light sins. There is only reference to salvation. This means we must determine if it is referring to those who have already obtained it (Christians) or those who have not yet obtained it (non-Christians).

I fully believe it is referring to unbelievers who are on the verge of salvation. They have all the knowledge they need. They have seen the power of the Spirit. They have received a partial blessing of what the Spirit has to offer. If there was ever a time to believe, this was it! If one fell back after all this, it would be lost on them. There would be a sense of hopelessness, an impossibility, that they would ever see Christ for who he is. With all that knowledge, if one still rejected Christ, all hope would be lost that they would ever see the Light.

If it referred to believer, it would not speak of flip-flopping but actual eternal condemnation. If a believer fell away, it would be impossible for him to ever come back. This means salvation is not eternal but condemnation is. However, if we see it in its proper context (described above), we can see it is clearly referring to the point of obtaining salvation and not the point of "losing" it. This is further underscored by the end of Hebrews 6:6. It says that those who had the head knowledge and even tasted the things of the Spirit, yet decide to reject Christ, more or less have declared Christ deserved the death, guilt, and shame placed on him. It means they have taken their stand with the crucifiers in their rejection.

Like I said, it is never good to go on opinion. Because of this, I will provide some verses to ponder over and pray about regarding eternal security.

John 10:27-29 said:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Romans 8:35a said:
Who will separate us from the love of Christ? For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 said:
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:4-5 said:
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 5:10 said:
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

If I have time later on, I will try to reply to the latter half of the original post. My reply to this has taken up a great deal of time as it is. I just wanted to begin by showing that Eternal Security is a Biblical doctrine. The content of that article are horribly inaccurate, misleading, etc. I implore you to reject what it says as being false teaching. It takes glory from God by placing it on man. It removes power from God by placing it on man. It twists the very definition of grace by giving a "evil meter" to sins and categorizing them as heavy/light thereby, giving man a sense of self worth and makes him deserving of grace more so than a "heavy sinner." The originator of that article has no understanding of the doctrines of grace. I do not doubt his salvation but I do highly doubt his teachings as I urge you all to do.
 
Oh really ?
Jn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
This implies two sins - one of lesser severity/damage than the other.

SLE
 
I am of the very strong conviction that Eternal Security is a Biblical doctrine and anything else is a deceit from Hell. I will do my best to respond to sections of this post while also introducing new content of my own.



This is a common misconception from those who do not believe in Eternal Security. For instance, Calvinists fully embrace this doctrine but a Calvinist will not say a person can do whatever they want and still be saved. However, a non-Calvinist, who does not properly understand Calvinism, will say this is what Calvinists believe. In much the same way, those who say a man can do whatever he wants and still be saved is ignorant to what the Word of God says. I know very few Christians who hold this stance yet I know many people who think this is the common belief of Christians.



Yet this is not a Biblical stance whatsoever. It tends to be the opinion of those who rely too heavily on opinion.



I know you said you did not write this so I do not know if this is your actual opinion but, if it is, I am hoping my post will change this and give you a bit more confidence in the power of God, His love, and the regeneration from the Spirit.



In other words, the Spirit is strong but man is stronger. Hmmmm.....



This is a very common verse used to justify "temporal" security but it is not accurate. Hopefully, you will see why after this.



First of all, this is inaccurate to begin with. While a non-Christian will never have the Spirit reside in them, this does not mean they are incapable of partaking of the blessings of the Holy Spirit or being affected by Him.



Here, we can see what is commonly referred to as common grace or common blessing. We see that even the evil men receive a certain level of blessing from God. Moving on, we see something even more specific in 2 Peter 2:



It would be easy to think this is referring to a back-slidden Christian. However, the full context shows that this is not referring to a believer at all. It is referring to a false prophet. Despite this, it uses phrases like "escaped defilements of the world" and "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." It even speaks of them as having known the way of righteousness. Again, all this would lead someone to believe it is speaking of one who has lost their salvation but we all know this is not the case regarding the reference to false prophets. It is merely referring to someone who has all the head knowledge possible yet does not clinch the eternal bond of the Spirit.



While it is true that only a Christian can truly understand the things of the Spirit, it is not true at all to say only a Christian can taste the things of the Spirit. A great point was made by Paul in 1 Corinthians on this subject.



The use of the word "sanctified" does not mean that the unbelieving spouse is saved based on the believing spouses faith. It simply means they receive the blessing of the Spirit through the faith of the believing spouse. They may not receive salvation or the forgiveness of sins but they do receive a blessing nonetheless. It is in this sense that a non-believer can still partake of the things of the Spirit without ever having obtained regeneration/salvation from the Spirit.



Again, this is partially true but it is far from complete. The Greek word used for enlightened is phōtizō and is being used in the sense of being intellectually enlightened to Spiritual truths. The people being spoken of in Hebrews 6 had been made aware of Spiritual truths and they saw them for what they were but it does not give any indication to a response to the call of salvation. Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture is this phrase used to speak of salvation. It simply means they had mental knowledge of the things of the Spirit. To some extent, I am sure they also tasted the things of the Spirit albeit never tasting salvation or regeneration. It would be impossible to have been so involved in the things of the Church and not have been affected. Even the people following Christ in Matthew 5 were affected by the Light yet they did not believe despite this.



This is only a conclusion of partial Scripture being used. When taken in full context, one can see how non-believers partake in things of the Spirit all the time. They are just not privy to salvation and will never fully experience all the Spirit has to offer. Take note that the Greek word for partaker is metochos. The key thing to note here is that this word does not describe a possession. It merely refers to an association. Again, these men did not possess the Spirit. They only tasted (did not feast on) the things of the Spirit and had an association with the Spirit while never having a possession of the Spirit.



Please describe heavy sins versus light sins. I seem to forget where the Bible speaks on this. My understanding of grace is that nobody deserves it. We are all wretched sinners saved by grace. If one man is over another while in sin, it means he is more deserving of grace than the other. If a man is more deserving of grace, it stops being grace and starts becoming merit. You see the slippery slope of bad theology? We are all sinners saved by grace alone and not one deserves it more so than another based on "heaviness" of sins. This is theology of justification to make us sound like we aren't quite as wretched as Scripture declares.

To see an example of one "falling away" while never actually being saved, we need look no further than the parable of the sower and the seed. The last type was the only one that was actually a true convert. The other 3 were all false converts. The one I want to point out in particular is the one who grows a little and is then smothered by the vines of the world. The cares of this life take what little sprouting they had and kills it. This man was a partaker of the things of the Spirit yet was never truly saved. Only the one who was truly saved flourishes and receives the full blessing of the Spirit.



Again, Scripture does not speak of heavy sins versus light sins. This is very poor eisegesis and is to be rejected. The writer of this article is inserting his own opinion into Scripture and running with it. There is no indication of heavy sins or light sins. There is only reference to salvation. This means we must determine if it is referring to those who have already obtained it (Christians) or those who have not yet obtained it (non-Christians).

I fully believe it is referring to unbelievers who are on the verge of salvation. They have all the knowledge they need. They have seen the power of the Spirit. They have received a partial blessing of what the Spirit has to offer. If there was ever a time to believe, this was it! If one fell back after all this, it would be lost on them. There would be a sense of hopelessness, an impossibility, that they would ever see Christ for who he is. With all that knowledge, if one still rejected Christ, all hope would be lost that they would ever see the Light.

If it referred to believer, it would not speak of flip-flopping but actual eternal condemnation. If a believer fell away, it would be impossible for him to ever come back. This means salvation is not eternal but condemnation is. However, if we see it in its proper context (described above), we can see it is clearly referring to the point of obtaining salvation and not the point of "losing" it. This is further underscored by the end of Hebrews 6:6. It says that those who had the head knowledge and even tasted the things of the Spirit, yet decide to reject Christ, more or less have declared Christ deserved the death, guilt, and shame placed on him. It means they have taken their stand with the crucifiers in their rejection.

Like I said, it is never good to go on opinion. Because of this, I will provide some verses to ponder over and pray about regarding eternal security.











If I have time later on, I will try to reply to the latter half of the original post. My reply to this has taken up a great deal of time as it is. I just wanted to begin by showing that Eternal Security is a Biblical doctrine. The content of that article are horribly inaccurate, misleading, etc. I implore you to reject what it says as being false teaching. It takes glory from God by placing it on man. It removes power from God by placing it on man. It twists the very definition of grace by giving a "evil meter" to sins and categorizing them as heavy/light thereby, giving man a sense of self worth and makes him deserving of grace more so than a "heavy sinner." The originator of that article has no understanding of the doctrines of grace. I do not doubt his salvation but I do highly doubt his teachings as I urge you all to do.

What a dissertation!

I agree with much that you have here, but as before and all due respect, I disagree with some of your understanding or interpretations:

This is only a conclusion of partial Scripture being used. When taken in full context, one can see how non-believers partake in things of the Spirit all the time. They are just not privy to salvation and will never fully experience all the Spirit has to offer. Take note that the Greek word for partaker is metochos. The key thing to note here is that this word does not describe a possession. It merely refers to an association. Again, these men did not possess the Spirit. They only tasted (did not feast on) the things of the Spirit and had an association with the Spirit while never having a possession of the Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Paul is talking about non-believers alright, he was talking about those who were committing Apostasy.

During Paul's writing Hebrews 6, he had a lot of spies trying to infiltrate the Church from the Temple. They would participate in church activities, would say they believe but on the sly, they would do things like: tell their brothers that they need to go back to the Temple and participate in sacrifices to really be saved. These were Apostates who totally rejected Jesus Christ and they were spies for the Orthodox Jewish leaders.

Paul was essentially telling the true Christians, that it was impossible to fall away to Apostasy after being saved. Paul was the original " Once saved always saved" believer. This is proven when he says basically, that if you could fall away, you would be dead to your sin again and your only hope would be for Jesus to be crucified again and to his public shame, which wasn't going to happen.

True these people did not possess the Holy Spirit but there is no such thing as an Apostate even coming close to a taste of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, you and I only have a taste of the Spirit, more than that does not come until our imperfection passes away ( see 1 COR 13:10).

Romans 8:23
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

First fruits, just the very beginning. Some Bibles say just a taste!
 
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What a dissertation!

Thanks. I can be a little long winded at times but I think it is worth it to convey the points at hand. I make every attempt to make what I write readable and interesting.

I agree with much that you have here, but as before and all due respect, I disagree with some of your understanding or interpretations:

rojoloco said:
This is only a conclusion of partial Scripture being used. When taken in full context, one can see how non-believers partake in things of the Spirit all the time. They are just not privy to salvation and will never fully experience all the Spirit has to offer. Take note that the Greek word for partaker is metochos. The key thing to note here is that this word does not describe a possession. It merely refers to an association. Again, these men did not possess the Spirit. They only tasted (did not feast on) the things of the Spirit and had an association with the Spirit while never having a possession of the Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Paul is talking about non-believers alright, he was talking about those who were committing Apostasy.

During Paul's writing Hebrews 6, he had a lot of spies trying to infiltrate the Church from the Temple. They would participate in church activities, would say they believe but on the sly, they would do things like: tell their brothers that they need to go back to the Temple and participate in sacrifices to really be saved. These were Apostates who totally rejected Jesus Christ and they were spies for the Orthodox Jewish leaders.

While I can admit it could possibly be referring to apostates, I am not willing to say it with certainty. It is most definitely referring to unbelieving Jews but it is unclear who the ones are who have fallen away. It could be the apostates but it could also be those who simply fell back into Jewish legalism through the rejection of Christ. I am inclined to say it is speaking more of the latter than the former.

If we look at the text, in Hebrews 6:12, it speaks of being sluggish. The writer of Hebrews was urging the Jews who were on the sidelines to choose Christ. They were on the fence but had not yet embraced the Holy Spirit. They had tasted the Spirit and had partaken in the things of the Spirit but had not yet been quenched with the Spirit. They were still unbelievers who had not yet made up their mind. The writer of Hebrews was exhorting them to trust in Christ. Of course, he never would have exhorted them if they had already become apostates. However, I am willing to concede that those who had already fallen away may have become apostates and were helping influence those who were being exhorted.

Paul was essentially telling the true Christians, that it was impossible to fall away to Apostasy after being saved. Paul was the original " Once saved always saved" believer.

First off, we are not sure it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. There are many things that indicate he was yet there are many more things that indicate he was not (such as his own declaration that he was a minister to the Gentiles while Peter was a minister to the Jews). Just thought I would point that out.

I don't really think the writer is telling us of the impossibility of falling away to apostasy though. I believe the impossibility is the hopelessness of obtaining salvation. Note that Hebrews 6:6 says "impossible to renew them again to repentance" and not "impossible to fall away once true repentance has been obtained." It is clear that it is referring to a failure to progress and not an impossibility to regress.

This is proven when he says basically, that if you could fall away, you would be dead to your sin again and your only hope would be for Jesus to be crucified again and to his public shame, which wasn't going to happen.

If it were saying this, it would have to mean that the crucifixion applied to them at one point. This interpretation would have to mean they were once truly saved and had since fallen away and would have to crucify Christ again in order to be re-saved. Of course, we know Christ was crucified once for all (1 Peter 3:8) as the final act of completion never again to be repeated. Again, with this interpretation, it would have to mean the crucifixion, at one time, applied to these Jews in question. However, based on the author's convictions of Eternal Security, he would not be speaking of an event such as this. If it applied at one time, he would be exhorting them to continue in their faith and walk with Christ. However, he never mentions this. Instead, he speaks as if they had never yet embraced Christ to begin with. Again, the Jews in question were on the fence and had not yet made up their mind. Those who had fallen away were those who were on the fence and then finally made up their mind to reject Christ even after seeing the work and evidence of the Spirit.

Again, the "since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" does not refer to those who were once saved and had fallen away but rather those who were on the fence and finally stood their ground among those Jews who crucified Christ. Even if they never would have physically done so, the author of Hebrews does not water it down when he places them in the same category. It shows the seriousness of their rejection. They never chose Christ even after all they had tasted and, in their rejection, had lost all hope of ever choosing Christ and now stood among the rest of the crucifers.

True these people did not possess the Holy Spirit but there is no such thing as an Apostate even coming close to a taste of the Holy Spirit.

I disagree with this. An apostate was one who blended in with other believers. Jude does a beautiful job of describing the dangers of apostates and even describes how to find them. Despite this, apostates tasted the things of the Spirit all the time. It is impossible to not taste the things of the Spirit when you are so deep inside.

Picture an undercover agent in the midst of a giant drug ring. They are neck deep in the lifestyle while trying to split it up after gaining intel from the inside. While being against it with every fiber of their body, they are still going to feel the effects of being in it. In fact, soldiers overseas are going through the same thing. They are neck deep and many of them are not coming back the same. They have tasted the lifestyle. Like it or not, it has affected them to some degree or another. The same could be said for the apostates. Despite their unbelief, they were so deep that it would have been impossible for them to not have tasted the Spirit. This is what holds them even more accountable. 2 Peter (as quote before) supports this stance as well:

2 Peter 2:20-21 said:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.


It is speaking of false prophets. Despite their false teaching, they had still tasted the things of the Spirit. Peter says this makes things even worse off for them than if they had remained ignorant for now they were making a conscious and fully informed decision to reject Christ. As I was saying, anyone can taste the things of the Spirit but only true believers can drink (John 4:14) and eat (John 6:51) the things of the Spirit.


In fact, you and I only have a taste of the Spirit, more than that does not come until our imperfection passes away ( see 1 COR 13:10).

I do agree that, in the meantime, we only know in part. However, I do not relate this to the verse in question simply because Scripture does give a differentiation between simply tasting verses eating/drinking. One describes a taste while the other implies a satisfying feast of eternity. We may stay on the path of sanctification until the day we die or the Perfect comes but I do not believe this is what Hebrews 6 is referring to.

I do appreciate your well thought out response though. I thoroughly enjoy discussions of this nature.
 
Eternal Life

I smell a faint hint of a Calvinist lurking near by...


To the Calvinist.......

Animals will be animals... they do what they are programed to do.

Animals do not feel empathy for other Animals, they are not interested in another animal's goals or dreams. Animals do not achieve advances in science. They do not invent, they just respond to environment.
Microsoft will never compete with Monkeysoft.

Yet, Humans can invent, change their environment and have empathy for others...... They can leave God, and the Hope of the Gospel if they choose.

But to the Calvinist, there is only the screwed ones, damned to hell, no choice, just royally screwed by God. Then there are the lucky ones, who should be grateful that God picked them. They did not deserve to be picked like the once that did not get picked, yet they were.
They have no choice also, they become a slave to God by design.... God wanted slaves, remember... Not children... or the Calvinist thinks..

To the Calvinist, we are but as the animals.... Some born to swim in the ocean, some born to climb tree's and eat Banana's. Some created to live a miserable life on Earth, and the reward is a good eternal roasting in Hell. Some picked out of some Heavenly lotto picking system, and just get lucky to have that eternal Salvation....

God created us in HIS image.... God wanted Children, and a Child can leave, and not be found again... The Lost sheep that did not come back. A sheep, like God who's image the sheep was created had the ability to make a choice.

Jesus Is Lord
 
Thanks. I can be a little long winded at times but I think it is worth it to convey the points at hand. I make every attempt to make what I write readable and interesting.



While I can admit it could possibly be referring to apostates, I am not willing to say it with certainty. It is most definitely referring to unbelieving Jews but it is unclear who the ones are who have fallen away. It could be the apostates but it could also be those who simply fell back into Jewish legalism through the rejection of Christ. I am inclined to say it is speaking more of the latter than the former.

If we look at the text, in Hebrews 6:12, it speaks of being sluggish. The writer of Hebrews was urging the Jews who were on the sidelines to choose Christ. They were on the fence but had not yet embraced the Holy Spirit. They had tasted the Spirit and had partaken in the things of the Spirit but had not yet been quenched with the Spirit. They were still unbelievers who had not yet made up their mind. The writer of Hebrews was exhorting them to trust in Christ. Of course, he never would have exhorted them if they had already become apostates. However, I am willing to concede that those who had already fallen away may have become apostates and were helping influence those who were being exhorted.



First off, we are not sure it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. There are many things that indicate he was yet there are many more things that indicate he was not (such as his own declaration that he was a minister to the Gentiles while Peter was a minister to the Jews). Just thought I would point that out.

I don't really think the writer is telling us of the impossibility of falling away to apostasy though. I believe the impossibility is the hopelessness of obtaining salvation. Note that Hebrews 6:6 says "impossible to renew them again to repentance" and not "impossible to fall away once true repentance has been obtained." It is clear that it is referring to a failure to progress and not an impossibility to regress.



If it were saying this, it would have to mean that the crucifixion applied to them at one point. This interpretation would have to mean they were once truly saved and had since fallen away and would have to crucify Christ again in order to be re-saved. Of course, we know Christ was crucified once for all (1 Peter 3:8) as the final act of completion never again to be repeated. Again, with this interpretation, it would have to mean the crucifixion, at one time, applied to these Jews in question. However, based on the author's convictions of Eternal Security, he would not be speaking of an event such as this. If it applied at one time, he would be exhorting them to continue in their faith and walk with Christ. However, he never mentions this. Instead, he speaks as if they had never yet embraced Christ to begin with. Again, the Jews in question were on the fence and had not yet made up their mind. Those who had fallen away were those who were on the fence and then finally made up their mind to reject Christ even after seeing the work and evidence of the Spirit.

Again, the "since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" does not refer to those who were once saved and had fallen away but rather those who were on the fence and finally stood their ground among those Jews who crucified Christ. Even if they never would have physically done so, the author of Hebrews does not water it down when he places them in the same category. It shows the seriousness of their rejection. They never chose Christ even after all they had tasted and, in their rejection, had lost all hope of ever choosing Christ and now stood among the rest of the crucifers.



I disagree with this. An apostate was one who blended in with other believers. Jude does a beautiful job of describing the dangers of apostates and even describes how to find them. Despite this, apostates tasted the things of the Spirit all the time. It is impossible to not taste the things of the Spirit when you are so deep inside.

Picture an undercover agent in the midst of a giant drug ring. They are neck deep in the lifestyle while trying to split it up after gaining intel from the inside. While being against it with every fiber of their body, they are still going to feel the effects of being in it. In fact, soldiers overseas are going through the same thing. They are neck deep and many of them are not coming back the same. They have tasted the lifestyle. Like it or not, it has affected them to some degree or another. The same could be said for the apostates. Despite their unbelief, they were so deep that it would have been impossible for them to not have tasted the Spirit. This is what holds them even more accountable. 2 Peter (as quote before) supports this stance as well:




It is speaking of false prophets. Despite their false teaching, they had still tasted the things of the Spirit. Peter says this makes things even worse off for them than if they had remained ignorant for now they were making a conscious and fully informed decision to reject Christ. As I was saying, anyone can taste the things of the Spirit but only true believers can drink (John 4:14) and eat (John 6:51) the things of the Spirit.




I do agree that, in the meantime, we only know in part. However, I do not relate this to the verse in question simply because Scripture does give a differentiation between simply tasting verses eating/drinking. One describes a taste while the other implies a satisfying feast of eternity. We may stay on the path of sanctification until the day we die or the Perfect comes but I do not believe this is what Hebrews 6 is referring to.

I do appreciate your well thought out response though. I thoroughly enjoy discussions of this nature.






Thanks. I can be a little long winded at times but I think it is worth it to convey the points at hand. I make every attempt to make what I write readable and interesting.

I don't know any other way to say this and I apologize if it offends you or any other reader: My dissertation reply was not meant as a compliment! I have had many discussions with you in the past and still come out with the same gut feeling, as much as you are in love with your supposed knowledge, I am convinced that you have no clue about the Gospel that Paul taught!

While I can admit it could possibly be referring to apostates, I am not willing to say it with certainty.

To all your replies against Apostasy, I appeal to your vast knowledge and please explain, WHAT YOU THINK, what is Paul saying in Hebrews 6:6 then! Anyone who has done their "Due Diligence" will know that Chapter 6 is a warning against Apostasy, which was rampant in the Jerusalem Church at this time. Paul's "Falling Away" was total rejection of Christ (Apostasy) that's why he said that their recovery was impossible!!!! The RSV even says the word apostasy in verse 6.

[/irst off, we are not sure it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. There are many things that indicate he was yet there are many more things that indicate he was not (such as his own declaration that he was a minister to the Gentiles while Peter was a minister to the Jews). Just thought I would point that out.
I just thought I would give you another point to ponder: Augustinian/Calvinistic theological system.

Though in the King James Version it is called, In the title, The Epistle of Paul, the style alone is clearly Paul's, It was a matter of record that Paul struggled with Jewish Apostates and the letter is a clear discussion of the Relationship of Christ to the Levitical Priesthood and Temple Sacrifices.

owever, based on the author's convictions of Eternal Security, he would not be speaking of an event such mind
[/COLOR] Please show me passages on this that prove this conviction with Eternal Security. I see no mention of Eternal Security from God in my Bibles... Sounds like Augustinian/Calvinistic theological system.



to reject Christ even after seeing the work and evidence of the Spirit.
You keep saying that it is clear to you that non-believers get to taste the Spirit, please show some scriptural support.


Despite this, apostates tasted the things of the Spirit all the time. It is impossible to not taste the things of the Spirit when you are so deep inside. Again show me where this is said!
 
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Yes, there are many passages in the New Testament which tells us exactly that. What many fail to either realize or just simply disregard is that it is repentance which qualifies us for salvation; which is the first thing that Christ tells us to do; which also is required to receive remission of sins. Many churches bypass this, and teach a no cost faith, which deceives many, and their sins are left untouched. We must needs listen to the Lord Jesus Christ first, then if another has something to say, let us hear them with heed, whether they are in line with Christ or not. Beloved, there is a beginning of Christianity, and the beginning is exactly what was the first Word that proceeded out of the mouth of Christ when He began His ministry; and this Word is "Repent".
 
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