To us Jesus has died and has risen. To our divine Judge it is at every moment in the past, it is at every moment in the future and is is precisely now as I write this and precisely now as you read this. Just because you don't see the deep truths in His divine plan doesn't mean they aren't there. Reaching "logical to you" conclusions that contradict God's biblically stated character should trigger the fear and trembling part. In His kingdom we'll know in full and our presence there is 100% on Him.
Reconciled to God while enemies !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
no, you've been lying about what i said for some time now.
i said everyone is tested in this lifetime, according to their abilities. -and in my experience, the younger you are, the more likely you are to choose to follow Jesus when you meet him in real life after death. but those evil children who harden their hearts and kill people starting as early as 12 years of age, well,. they won't accept forgiveness when they are killed.
https://abc7chicago.com/post/carjacking-chicago-11-year-old-suspect-police-cpd/11282024/
List of youngest killers - Wikipedia
there is no mechanism besides re-incarnation to get back to this earth again after "you" die.
from some points of view, the future has already happened as well. so i can see an argument for retroactive and what's the opposite of that, future salvation for people not yet created, they are already saved in a sense. it seems to be outside of time.
so trying to interpret paul's letters when, one of the very verses BF's argument rests on, starts with an "IF" we are reconciled to God, well,
yes, IF we were reconciled to God while we were sinners before we had faith.. well, then WHAT IF God made vessels for destruction that are not included in this "Reconciled to God" portion.
I don't believe Paul would make an argument involving a what if clause, if he didn't believe there are real people contained in that clause.
so yes i believe paul believed there are people who were made by God to be vessels for destruction. -I am not saying I believe that is true.
Nah, bright fame is reading you the english straight out of pauls letters.
I dont actually agree with him, because i think the english may be wrong. But, it is what the English says.
Also: yes.. the judgement is litterally Jesus cherry picking people for heaven.
Jesus is looking for fruit. He told us that much, in many parables.
The only hyper dispensationalist i know in real life: told me only acts chapt X through i forget, applied to us.
But he also confessed he knew God had given him wealth because he was called to feed the poor. And he had not. And he litterally told me God was asking him "where is your fruit? I called you to feed the poor".
So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I certainly don't claim to understand the implications of our Creator/Judge being omnipresent in time and also outside of time. For some things, like perfect bible prophesy, being everywhere in spacetime actually makes 100% prophetic accuracy normal. For other things like knowing who is saved from even before He gives them life yet being fully good/just are tougher. That tension exposes our understanding in part. That word "before" is time based and I'm projecting my understanding of time on Him.
When God tells us that a thousand years is as one day and vice versa He's not giving us an equation. He's warning us not to project our experience/understanding of time onto Him. My objective when posting in such threads is to warn that our oh so limited understanding of time is a huge blind spot. Ignoring His warning about this gives us false confidence about our understanding of His salvation plan for us.
KingJ
Loyal
"You are lying about me, I don't teach that God sends children to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT''... Joe proceeds to explain that he knows of an 11 year old that deserves ETERNAL PUNSIHMENT.
Paul REBUKED Christians in 1 Cor 6:1-9 that could not judge matters better than the unsaved.
KingJ
Loyal
LMAO
There are 50 clear verses teaching us that God is IMPARTIAL.
You and BF change the definition of impartial to fit in with Calvinism.
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Just because God is omniscient and Rom 9:21 is in scripture DOES NOT MEAN GOD IS IMPARTIAL. You fail at reading every verse outside of Rom 9:21 and proceed to define the A-Z of God's character off of one single truth. ""God is omniscient, if He '''wanted to'''' He could create a vessel unto dishonor''.
You and I cannot grasp God. We need to stick to how SCRIPTURE DEFINES HIM.
God is omniscient + impartial Rom 2:11+ good Psalm 136:1 + righteous Psalm 145:17 + just Job 34:12 + light with no darkness 1 John 1:5.... all AT THE SAME TIME.
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You and BF have been corrected a million times and continue to COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY MISREPRESENT God.
Do you believe that just because you escape me slapping you through the screen you will escape a judgement day with God??????
Wake up!!! and STOP false teaching. Being TERRIFIED of God if you are a false teacher is Christianity 101.
Read the OP here a couple of times:
The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher
False teachers receive the HARSHEST warnings in scripture.
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You teach the lost that God loves and died for that He does not love and did not die for them.
You teach that God will send 11 year old's whose brain has not fully formed to eternal punishment.
Did you miss all the verses in scripture that say God is good, righteous, light with no darkness, just and extremely smart?
You portray God as someone who will sit a top a list of the most evil beings to ever exist.
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Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.
Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19
The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher
We are well in agreement.
Ive had glimpses of the complexity of these matters myself that have changed my perspectives, particularly regarding prayers that influence other people's salvation.
I used to think my mom was saved because she told me asking Jesus to forgive her sins gives her peace. And her sins may be forgiven and she goes to heaven.
But i dont see evidence she is born again. I have seen a little evidence of spiritual supernatural knowledge, but that doesnt always come from God
So all good boys go to heaven?
Not everyone is a good boy.
KingJ
Loyal
You argument is so sick and demented. I hope all with kids know to not ever leave them with you!!
As Jesus says, the road is narrow and few find it
Brightfame52
Active
The Gospel Call of Reconciliation !
2 Cor 5:19-20
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The Gospel Call of Reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:20 " be ye reconciled to God" in the greek this is a command, an imperative, and it is also in the passive voice, meaning quite frankly the command is instrumental in actually reconciling those the summons is issued to, and this command is not to all men without exception, as false teachers that lie, would have us believe, but it is only to those that belong to that world before in Vs 19, that had not its trespasses imputed to them, and hence a forgiven world, a redeemed world ! And the OT confirmation of this premise is here Isa 43:25;44:22
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Or it can very well say, be reconciled to me Ye were reconciled to me by the Death of My Son Rom 5:10 !
Clearly Remission of sins is the foundation for the imperative, return unto me, which is but the OT counterpart for "be ye reconciled to God" and both appeals are made upon the doing away of their sins before God's Sight !
Those trespasses that were not imputed to that World in 2 Cor 5:19 were done away with by the Lamb of God Jn 1:29 ! And it is to them only, the Call goes out '"Be ye reconciled to God " ! 1
2 Cor 5:19-20
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The Gospel Call of Reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:20 " be ye reconciled to God" in the greek this is a command, an imperative, and it is also in the passive voice, meaning quite frankly the command is instrumental in actually reconciling those the summons is issued to, and this command is not to all men without exception, as false teachers that lie, would have us believe, but it is only to those that belong to that world before in Vs 19, that had not its trespasses imputed to them, and hence a forgiven world, a redeemed world ! And the OT confirmation of this premise is here Isa 43:25;44:22
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Or it can very well say, be reconciled to me Ye were reconciled to me by the Death of My Son Rom 5:10 !
Clearly Remission of sins is the foundation for the imperative, return unto me, which is but the OT counterpart for "be ye reconciled to God" and both appeals are made upon the doing away of their sins before God's Sight !
Those trespasses that were not imputed to that World in 2 Cor 5:19 were done away with by the Lamb of God Jn 1:29 ! And it is to them only, the Call goes out '"Be ye reconciled to God " ! 1
KingJ
Loyal
You don't believe that, you believe nobody finds it, you believe people are picked at random to enter.
Keep throwing the spagetti at the wall untill it sticks.
It requires their free will to accept his forgiveness..
You seem to preach a 99.9% universalist gospel where all dogs go to heaven.
But you forget the very Paul that you love. Says rapists murderers adulterers and a curious word "all" liars. Will go to hell.
Well, i can find about 30% of americans are serial adulterers, and it really skews the marriage statistics.
While 50% of marriages end in divorce, what they dont mention is when you track individuals, its 25?% of them that make half the divorces.
Of the non adulterers who marry, they have much better results than 50% the first time
Brightfame52
Active
2 Cor 5:19 Preaching Reconciliation !
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
When Preaching the Word of reconciliation as the Apostle Paul did, it is imperative to Preach the Non Imputation of sin or trespasses unto those Christ died for and reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10, for in our text we read in 2 Cor 5:19 how was God reconciling the World [The Church] unto Himself, for it is put quite plainly " by not imputing their trespasses against them !
The word trespasses here is the greek word paraptōma and means:
to fall beside or near something
2) a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness
a) a sin, misdeed
Its also where we get the word fall away as here Heb 6:6
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So when one for whom God reconciled falls away, that one or ones does not have that laid to their charge. All for whom Christ died did fall away at first in Adam, that was not laid to their charge.
Now understand, everyone of that World in 2 Cor 5:19 is freed or Justified from all sin, they have a clean slate before God, God views them, even as sinners and dead in sin, He views them with no sin charges against them Rom 8:33 ! He views them as the blessed man here Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
The word man here is used generically to denote a group of both men and women, and we can very well understand Vs 8 to read this way:
8 Blessed is the world as in 2 Cir 5:19 to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Such a world is freed or Justified from the legal charge of sin before God ! 1
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
When Preaching the Word of reconciliation as the Apostle Paul did, it is imperative to Preach the Non Imputation of sin or trespasses unto those Christ died for and reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10, for in our text we read in 2 Cor 5:19 how was God reconciling the World [The Church] unto Himself, for it is put quite plainly " by not imputing their trespasses against them !
The word trespasses here is the greek word paraptōma and means:
to fall beside or near something
2) a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness
a) a sin, misdeed
Its also where we get the word fall away as here Heb 6:6
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So when one for whom God reconciled falls away, that one or ones does not have that laid to their charge. All for whom Christ died did fall away at first in Adam, that was not laid to their charge.
Now understand, everyone of that World in 2 Cor 5:19 is freed or Justified from all sin, they have a clean slate before God, God views them, even as sinners and dead in sin, He views them with no sin charges against them Rom 8:33 ! He views them as the blessed man here Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
The word man here is used generically to denote a group of both men and women, and we can very well understand Vs 8 to read this way:
8 Blessed is the world as in 2 Cir 5:19 to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Such a world is freed or Justified from the legal charge of sin before God ! 1
KingJ
Loyal
You are reading your theology into the passage instead of reading the passage itself.
2 Corinthians 5:19 does not say God viewed people as having no sin charges while they were still unbelievers. It says God was reconciling the world through Christ and has committed to us the message of reconciliation. If people were already justified, forgiven, and had no sins imputed to them before believing, why preach reconciliation at all?
You also replace "world" with "church" without any textual support. The passage says "world," not "elect," not "church," and not "those already justified."
Romans 4:8 describes those who have received forgiveness, not unbelievers walking around justified before faith. Your conclusion is assumed first and then forced onto every verse afterward.
KingJ
Loyal
Nope, I believe in true free will and few that will truly accept Jesus, BF doesn't, if you honestly believe your line than you should be liking my posts and replies to BF...
Imagine that
You are liking all BFs posts and you don't know what Calvinists believe?
Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.
Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19
The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher
Rabbit trail, try focus on the fact that no sane person on this planet will send an 11 year old to prison, let alone eternal prison, and then try understand that if Paul met you he would rebuke you as he did other Christians who could not judge matters better than the unsaved 1 Cor 6:1-9.
Brightfame52
Active
KingJ,
Your objection rests on a fundamental confusion between the Legal Acquisition of salvation at the cross and its Practical Proclamation in time.
You ask: “If people were already justified, forgiven, and had no sins imputed to them before believing, why preach reconciliation at all?”
This completely misunderstands the nature of preaching the Gospel. Let’s look at it through a strict legal lens: If a benefactor steps into a bank and pays off your massive debt in full, that debt is legally canceled the moment the bank accepts the payment. You might walk around for days completely unaware of it, still stressed and acting like a debtor. When a messenger arrives to give you the paperwork, why do they preach that message to you? Are they doing it to make the payment effective? No! They are proclaiming a finished, objective fact so that you can stop living in fear and begin living in the joy of your freedom. Its also called the Gospel of ones Salvation Eph 1:13 or Peace Eph 6:15
Paul explicitly calls it the “word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19). A word of reconciliation is a report of an accomplished legal reality. If the reconciliation is not a finished forensic fact until man believes, then you aren't preaching a finished work at Calvary; you are preaching a conditional offer waiting for human activation.
Furthermore, let’s test the logical consistency of your definition of “the world.” You object to me defining this world as the Church or the elect.
If “the world” in verse 19 means every individual human being without exception, and Paul explicitly states that God is “not imputing their trespasses unto them,” then your system logically demands Universalism. God cannot justly cast a person into hell if He is legally not imputing their sins to their account. If their ledger is blank, there is no basis for condemnation. Because Scripture is clear that some perish under wrath, this "world" must textually denote the world of the elect—those for whom Christ successfully stood as Surety.
You claim that Romans 4:8 only describes people after they believe. But this forces a temporal variable into the eternal ledger of God. If our sins were not legally accounted for until we believed, then Christ’s substitutionary death in 33 AD was merely a provisional possibility, not an actual redemption.
The text states that God was in Christ—past tense—reconciling that world to Himself. It was a unilateral legal transaction that cleared the ledger of the elect while they were still historical enemies (Romans 5:10). We preach the Gospel not to help sinners perform a transaction, but to command them to believe the glorious truth that the transaction has already been legally finished by the non-imputation of sin at Calvary.
The case remains closed.
Twistie
Loyal
Ya so true for the Longest time i was furious actually worst then that i wanted blood from the boy who assaulted my daughter when she was just 2..by the grace of Abba the police captured that boy right before i had gotten there with a metal bat in hand man i was gonna bash his skull in the grace and mercy of Abba showered on me n that boy he was 15 i believe i had a summer girl babysitter was the first time allowed a teen to watch my children n the last..what many dont realize nor do they want to accept that a child can be responsible for a great amount of hurt and harm n destruction n yet we must not allow ourselves to get drawn into commiting violent acts in returns we must ask Abba to show us how to forgive what i refer to as lil monsters these ones now a day are a new breed these ones will kill you as quick as looking at ya.. those who do not see it its because they turned a blind eye to it..i speak much on the violence of the fatherless its very sad and disturbing what is happening on the streets of America n yet how few Christian men go into them streets n help guide the fatherless..seems people rather open a building call it a church steel from the poor till they can't shut the doors n move on I've watched it for years..very very sad..no, you've been lying about what i said for some time now.
i said everyone is tested in this lifetime, according to their abilities. -and in my experience, the younger you are, the more likely you are to choose to follow Jesus when you meet him in real life after death. but those evil children who harden their hearts and kill people starting as early as 12 years of age, well,. they won't accept forgiveness when they are killed.
https://abc7chicago.com/post/carjacking-chicago-11-year-old-suspect-police-cpd/11282024/
List of youngest killers - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
there is no mechanism besides re-incarnation to get back to this earth again after "you" die.
Much of the violence we witness in life is turtles all the way down if you understand what that means.
When i told my sister that i had been groomed by a 13 yr old girl when i was 6, she asked me "and where did she learn to do that from?" And i forget what i said but her reply was, and who did he learn that from? It all goes back to adam.
In other words. My sister had accepted that people just harm other people and carry that sin forwards without being responsible for it because it is ultimatly all adams fault.
As paul says: as sin entered the world through one man, so it left the world through the last adam.
You can read into that way too far as some Calvinists do, or equally too far as the universalists do saying everyone gets into heaven after (say, xx years in purgatory) or, whatever.
But there are a different set of people who do, invent evil. As God describes of the generation prior to the flood.
And those people make up a far greater percentage than you think. Half of them are in prison. The other half are immensely successful, making up at least 5% of the population in total.
As i mature and God removes certain spiritual protections from me, i am finding out it is true that: "the average man is a thief".
I heard those words when i protested telling God i would not invest my money in the stockmarket even if he told me what stocks to buy, as i want nothing to do with the house of cards called the usa reserve currency which may implode in my lifetime.
In other words its not sin to invest your money because you're not stealing the gains from anyone who doesnt deserve to loose them.