Reconciled to God while enemies !

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Brightfame52

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Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time ! 1
 
One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them,[2 Cor5:19] Christ's death has paid in full for them, and God has nothing against them, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers.

So its impossible for unbelievers whom Christ died for, to at anytime be considered one of the unbelievers pointed out here Jn 3:18 or Jn 3:36 !

Those are only unbelievers Christ did not died for and did not reconciled to God by His Death !
 
All those reconciled to God by the Death of His Son, even while they were experientially being enemies in and of themselves by nature, even children of wrath as others by nature, yet through being reconciled to God, and accepted in His Favor, they must therefore be Perfect in His sight, because God accepts no one or thing less than Perfection, for His Holiness demands it. Whatever, if its not absolutely Perfect, Cannot be accepted with God ! But that Death of Christ, by which all for whom Christ died, and did reconcile to God thereby, even while being enemies, that Death of His or His Offering of Himself for them, made them Perfect before God ! Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
 
Brightfame52 said:
You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !
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We travel through this life one "now" after the other from conception to death then the judgement. It is a real ongoing battle between the desires of the spirit and the flesh. Temptation to stray from the perfect will of God towards our sinful nature is throughout scripture. Even the fully man part of Jesus experienced temptation.

It's impossible for us to truly grasp the "I am" who is omnipresent in spacetime. All the states we go through from conception to being saved to death are a single thing/moment/now to fully God Jesus. Concluding "they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time" is denying that with God/Jesus nothing shall be impossible.

I posted recently about some injured/sick people and some Christians trying to help them and there was close to zero interest. Jesus said: "Lord ... when saw we thee sick?" not "Lord ... when did we fail to grasp the mechanism of free will for humans inside time given by God who is outside of time?"
 
What the adversaries of Truth have failed to acknowledge, and is why they are guilty of diminishing the Merit's of Christ's Death alone, apart from the application work of the Spirit, that is, even though these Christ died for, and by His Death did reconcile them to God Legally, even while they are being enemies; while others, whom Christ did not die for, and while they are being enemies, they are under God's Wrath and Condemnation as Per Jn 3:18,36

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

See, the Wrath of God cannot abide on any for whom Christ died, because for them, His Wrath has been appeased solely by the Blood of Christ !

Now clearly the only difference from one group being reconciled to God while being enemies, and another group being under God's Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies, the only difference is the Death of Christ ! If this cannot be acknowledged then we are against Christ, against His Death, against His Blood, and The Accomplishments of it before the Law and Justice of God for those He died for !
 
Brightfame52 said:
What the adversaries of Truth have failed to acknowledge, and is why they are guilty of diminishing the Merit's of Christ's Death alone, apart from the application work of the Spirit, that is, even though these Christ died for, and by His Death did reconcile them to God Legally, even while they are being enemies; while others, whom Christ did not die for, and while they are being enemies, they are under God's Wrath and Condemnation as Per Jn 3:18,36

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

See, the Wrath of God cannot abide on any for whom Christ died, because for them, His Wrath has been appeased solely by the Blood of Christ !

Now clearly the only difference from one group being reconciled to God while being enemies, and another group being under God's Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies, the only difference is the Death of Christ ! If this cannot be acknowledged then we are against Christ, against His Death, against His Blood, and The Accomplishments of it before the Law and Justice of God for those He died for !
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Given that the bible establishes:
We are saved by what Jesus did alone (absolutely nothing added by us).

Code: 
---------------------------------------------
| Condemned              | Saved            |
|------------------------+------------------|
| Christ didn't die for  | Christ died for  |
|                        |                  |
| No Faith               | Faith            |
---------------------------------------------

Logically when reading the table above we can stop reading after the first line. He either died for someone or not. Nothing can be added. That's it. End of story. All 100% of why someone is condemned or saved is accounted for by our omnipotent sovereign God. Case closed. Calvinists are right. There is no logic error here. Proof complete.

It's irrelevant because nothing can be added to what Jesus did but for entertainment purposes lets read the second line in the table above. Interesting ... the saved side always have faith and the unsaved ones never do. Since God will "show mercy on whom I will show mercy" He obviously gave faith only to the saved group through no merit of their own.

1JN 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

To please God we are commanded to believe (have faith) but we are gifted faith through no merit of our own. This tension is not resolvable by Aristotelian logic. It is an example of a profound truth on which God's creation quantum physics (QP) and God's word stand.

From the book "Believing is seeing":
START OF BOOK QUOTE
"Here’s how the renowned Danish physicist Niels Bohr, a cofounder of QP, explained it: “Profound truths [are] recognized by the fact that the opposite is also a profound truth, in contrast to trivialities where opposites are obviously absurd.”[5]

Nobel laureate Max Delbrück later paraphrased Bohr: “It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth.”[6]

Trivial truths follow the straightforward rules of Aristotelian logic. Profound truths, on the other hand, flout the rules, opening our eyes to the deepest, most amazing, most impenetrable secrets of the universe."
END OF BOOK QUOTE

This profound/deep biblical truth about faith is why book after book, internet thread after internet thread endlessly argue how being saved by faith alone and not of ourselves ultimately works. Calvinist proponents and opponents are logically in tension with each other yet they are two sides of a deep biblical truth about our glorious God the "I Am".
 
NBTT said:
Given that the bible establishes:
We are saved by what Jesus did alone (absolutely nothing added by us).

Code: 
---------------------------------------------
| Condemned | Saved |
|------------------------+------------------|
| Christ didn't die for | Christ died for |
| | |
| No Faith | Faith |
---------------------------------------------
Logically when reading the table above we can stop reading after the first line. He either died for someone or not. Nothing can be added. That's it. End of story. All 100% of why someone is condemned or saved is accounted for by our omnipotent sovereign God. Case closed. Calvinists are right. There is no logic error here. Proof complete.

It's irrelevant because nothing can be added to what Jesus did but for entertainment purposes lets read the second line in the table above. Interesting ... the saved side always have faith and the unsaved ones never do. Since God will "show mercy on whom I will show mercy" He obviously gave faith only to the saved group through no merit of their own.

1JN 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

To please God we are commanded to believe (have faith) but we are gifted faith through no merit of our own. This tension is not resolvable by Aristotelian logic. It is an example of a profound truth on which God's creation quantum physics (QP) and God's word stand.

From the book "Believing is seeing":
START OF BOOK QUOTE
"Here’s how the renowned Danish physicist Niels Bohr, a cofounder of QP, explained it: “Profound truths [are] recognized by the fact that the opposite is also a profound truth, in contrast to trivialities where opposites are obviously absurd.”[5]

Nobel laureate Max Delbrück later paraphrased Bohr: “It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth.”[6]

Trivial truths follow the straightforward rules of Aristotelian logic. Profound truths, on the other hand, flout the rules, opening our eyes to the deepest, most amazing, most impenetrable secrets of the universe."
END OF BOOK QUOTE

This profound/deep biblical truth about faith is why book after book, internet thread after internet thread endlessly argue how being saved by faith alone and not of ourselves ultimately works. Calvinist proponents and opponents are logically in tension with each other yet they are two sides of a deep biblical truth about our glorious God the "I Am".
Click to expand...
NBTT, I appreciate that you recognize the flawless, absolute logic of the Legal Phase. As you rightly noted, when Christ died in 33 AD, the judicial case was settled—100% of why someone is saved or condemned is accounted for by our sovereign God.


However, your attempt to use Niels Bohr, quantum physics, and "profound contradictions" to create an unresolvable tension between God's decree and man's faith is a philosophical smoke screen. You are creating a paradox where Holy Scripture handles the matter with absolute, linear clarity.
The tension you claim is "unresolvable by Aristotelian logic" is completely and beautifully resolved when you rightly divide the Five Phases of Salvation:

1. The Text Does Not Flout Logic; It Tracks Phases

You are trying to look at the Vital Phase (Regeneration) and the Practical Phase (Conversion and Faith) as if they occur in the exact same millisecond and oppose each other. They do not.
In 1 John 3:23, God indeed commands us to believe on the name of His Son. But a command from a Holy Judge does not imply a functional capacity in a dead corpse.
  • The Vital Phase: God sovereignly and unilaterally quickens His elect who are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). He gives them life, a new heart, and the gift of faith.
  • The Practical Phase: The newly quickened, regenerated soul—now possessing spiritual eyes and a spiritual appetite—willingly, gladly, and instantly obeys the command to believe.
There is no "quantum tension" here. It is cause and effect. Life is given (Vital), therefore faith is exercised (Practical). Dead men don't believe; living men must believe.

2. Faith is the Fruit, Never the Condition, of the Legal Phase

Your table implies that "Faith" sits parallel to "Christ died for." But faith adds absolutely zero merit to the finished work of the Cross.
As John Gill masterfully argues on John 3:18, the elect are legally reconciled to God by the death of Christ while they are yet enemies (Romans 5:10). The wrath of God was completely appeased at Calvary for them. Faith does not appease God's wrath; faith is simply the spiritual hand given to the regenerated sinner in time to perceive and enjoy the justification that was already legally secured for them from eternity and accomplished in 33 AD.

3. God’s Truth is Rational, Not Schizophrenic

Using secular quantum mechanics to explain away biblical doctrine is highly dangerous. Niels Bohr's idea that "the opposite of a profound truth is another profound truth" belongs to human philosophy, not the infallible Word of the Holy Ghost.
God is a God of order, logic, and absolute truth. His right hand does not oppose His left hand. It is a trivial humanistic error to argue that because God commands faith, man must have some independent hand in the matter that creates a "mystery."
The scripture leaves no room for two sides of a coin: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Conclusion
There is no paradox. Calvinism is not "one side of a deep truth" shared with arminian or synergistic philosophies. Calvinism is simply the expression of the total, unyielding sovereignty of God across all phases of salvation.
Christ did not create a quantum probability on the Cross; He completed a definitive, successful, legal transaction. The case remains closed. No physics required!

 
Even though I'm convinced that non imputation of sin preached in 2 Cor 5:19 was that of the Terms of the Everlasting Covenant Established before the World began and at which time Christ was confirmed as the Surety of the Covenant Heb 7:22 or Testament, yet for the opposer's of this great Gospel Truth, lets say that 2 Cor 5:19 is referring to the Cross at its actual time in Human History in or around 33 ad, then it would stand for reason that the Non Imputation described here is the one and same with the imputing of sins unto Christ, in order for Him to die for them 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that being the case, for who can deny that Christ had to have had their sins imputed to Him, in order for Him to die for them ! Then at least no one Christ died for since 33 ad can be born in their sins, yes they can be born sinners, but they are born sinners that do not have the legal guilt and condemnation of breaking God's Law against them, and they are born sinners already reconciled to God by THE DEATH OF HIS SON !

Because it was His Death that satisfied God's Law and Justice for them against every transgression they will ever commit against it, God's Law. So, legally they are born Justified and Reconciled sinners In God's Sight ! 1
 
Brightfame52 said:
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time ! 1
Click to expand...

You are teaching something Romans 5:10 does not say.

• “Reconciled by His death” does not mean “justified before faith.” You are conflating Christ's finished work with the individual's reception of salvation.

• Romans 5:1 explicitly says “being justified by faith.” You cannot simply redefine that because your doctrine requires justification before faith.

• John 3:18 says “he that believeth not is condemned already.” Your claim that unbelievers are already reconciled and therefore cannot be under condemnation directly conflicts with this passage.

• You keep taking passages about what Christ accomplished and turning them into a claim about the individual's salvation before they believe.

• Please stop teaching this as though it were explicit Scripture. If you believe someone is personally justified and reconciled to God while still an unbelieving enemy, then provide one clear passage that actually says that.

This is not a minor difference in wording. You are teaching a doctrine that Scripture does not explicitly teach, while overriding passages that plainly say justification is by faith.
 
Brightfame52 said:
NBTT, I appreciate that you recognize the flawless, absolute logic of the Legal Phase. As you rightly noted, when Christ died in 33 AD, the judicial case was settled—100% of why someone is saved or condemned is accounted for by our sovereign God.


However, your attempt to use Niels Bohr, quantum physics, and "profound contradictions" to create an unresolvable tension between God's decree and man's faith is a philosophical smoke screen. You are creating a paradox where Holy Scripture handles the matter with absolute, linear clarity.
The tension you claim is "unresolvable by Aristotelian logic" is completely and beautifully resolved when you rightly divide the Five Phases of Salvation:

1. The Text Does Not Flout Logic; It Tracks Phases

You are trying to look at the Vital Phase (Regeneration) and the Practical Phase (Conversion and Faith) as if they occur in the exact same millisecond and oppose each other. They do not.
In 1 John 3:23, God indeed commands us to believe on the name of His Son. But a command from a Holy Judge does not imply a functional capacity in a dead corpse.
  • The Vital Phase: God sovereignly and unilaterally quickens His elect who are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). He gives them life, a new heart, and the gift of faith.
  • The Practical Phase: The newly quickened, regenerated soul—now possessing spiritual eyes and a spiritual appetite—willingly, gladly, and instantly obeys the command to believe.
There is no "quantum tension" here. It is cause and effect. Life is given (Vital), therefore faith is exercised (Practical). Dead men don't believe; living men must believe.

2. Faith is the Fruit, Never the Condition, of the Legal Phase

Your table implies that "Faith" sits parallel to "Christ died for." But faith adds absolutely zero merit to the finished work of the Cross.
As John Gill masterfully argues on John 3:18, the elect are legally reconciled to God by the death of Christ while they are yet enemies (Romans 5:10). The wrath of God was completely appeased at Calvary for them. Faith does not appease God's wrath; faith is simply the spiritual hand given to the regenerated sinner in time to perceive and enjoy the justification that was already legally secured for them from eternity and accomplished in 33 AD.

3. God’s Truth is Rational, Not Schizophrenic

Using secular quantum mechanics to explain away biblical doctrine is highly dangerous. Niels Bohr's idea that "the opposite of a profound truth is another profound truth" belongs to human philosophy, not the infallible Word of the Holy Ghost.
God is a God of order, logic, and absolute truth. His right hand does not oppose His left hand. It is a trivial humanistic error to argue that because God commands faith, man must have some independent hand in the matter that creates a "mystery."
The scripture leaves no room for two sides of a coin: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Conclusion
There is no paradox. Calvinism is not "one side of a deep truth" shared with arminian or synergistic philosophies. Calvinism is simply the expression of the total, unyielding sovereignty of God across all phases of salvation.
Christ did not create a quantum probability on the Cross; He completed a definitive, successful, legal transaction. The case remains closed. No physics required!

Click to expand...

Your response does not actually establish your conclusion. It simply gives NBTT's argument a Calvinist explanation.

• The entire argument depends on one unproven premise: that everyone Christ died for is already personally reconciled to God while still an unbeliever. Where does Scripture say that?

• Romans 5:10 says “we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son” and then says “being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” You cannot simply turn that into “the elect are already justified before faith.”

• Romans 5:1 explicitly says “being justified by faith.” That is a problem for your claim, not something you can simply redefine.

• John 3:18 says the unbeliever is condemned already. John 3:36 says “the wrath of God abideth on him.” Your doctrine has to explain how an unbeliever can simultaneously be personally reconciled and under God's condemnation and wrath.

• You say faith is merely the “fruit” of regeneration, but again, show the Scripture that explicitly says regeneration occurs before faith. You keep asserting the doctrine instead of proving it.

• “Five Phases of Salvation” is also your theological framework, not something Scripture presents as five divinely revealed phases. You cannot build the conclusion into your own framework and then use that framework as proof.

• And Romans 9:16 does not say “God regenerates the elect before they can believe.” That is an inference you are adding to the passage.

• NBTT's “tension” does not require quantum physics. The real problem is much simpler: you are claiming Scripture teaches something that you still cannot actually show Scripture saying.

Stop calling the case “closed” when the central premise has never been established from Scripture. The Bible is not settled by Calvinist logic. Show the passage.
 
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