Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Brightfame52]

You and Don Fortner are both reading your conclusion into Galatians 2:16.

The verse says, "we have believed... that we might be justified." It does not say, "we believed because we were already justified."

Christ alone is the ground of justification. Faith adds no merit. But Paul still presents faith as the means by which justification is received, not merely the moment it is discovered.

Its received when discovered, yet it was there and accomplished before received and discovered. It was a established fact at Christ death which was testified to by His resurrection. All who are Justified will be given Faith to believe it

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52

A word of caution: Scripture repeatedly warns teachers not to add to, subtract from, or distort God's Word to support a doctrine.

If we find ourselves changing the plain meaning of a text rather than submitting our doctrine to the text, we should be afraid. "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation" (James 3:1).

Paul warned against those who "corrupt the word of God" (2 Cor. 2:17), and Peter warned that some "wrest" the Scriptures "unto their own destruction" (2 Pet. 3:16).

Every teacher will stand before God and give an account for how he handled His Word. That should cause all of us to approach Scripture with humility, care, and fear.

If anyone is guilty of corrupting the word of God its you , so be ye warned

 

[KingJ]

.Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Such are justified by Christ, whose iniquities he bore; that is, suffered and satisfied for in his death: to this harmonize those writings of the apostle Paul , "He was delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification," Rom. 4: 25

This is a legal fact while ungodly ! 34

Isaiah 53:11 says the Servant will “justify many,” but it does not define the timing or manner apart from the rest of Scripture.

Paul is clear elsewhere: “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God” (Romans 5:1) and “a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28).

You are reading Isaiah 53:11 in isolation and importing a completed justification before faith framework into it. But Isaiah does not say people are justified while remaining unbelieving. That conclusion is being added to the text, not drawn from it.

Christ’s bearing of iniquity is the ground of justification, agreed. The question is whether Scripture ever separates that accomplishment from faith in its application, and Paul consistently does not.

 

[KingJ]

Of course its the elect, thats an unlearned comment

Calling something “unlearned” is not an argument. Ephesians 2:2 to 3 describes “you” as those who were dead in sins and following the world. Paul does not say “you were elect therefore exempt from that condition.” You are importing Ephesians 1:4 into Ephesians 2 in a way the text itself does not state.

It says both, you deny the blood Justification

No one denies justification is by Christ’s blood. The issue is your exclusive reading of Romans 5:9 as if it excludes faith, when Paul also says “being justified by faith” in Romans 5:1. You are creating a contradiction Paul never makes.

Christs resurrection testifies that the ones He Christ was delivered up for their trespasses are Justified.

You are again assuming what you are trying to prove. The resurrection confirms Christ’s work was accepted, but Scripture does not say people are personally justified while still unbelieving. You keep asserting “therefore” without a verse that actually states that conclusion.

Its received when discovered, yet it was there and accomplished before received and discovered. It was a established fact at Christ death which was testified to by His resurrection. All who are Justified will be given Faith to believe it

You are redefining justification into a timeless fact that exists prior to faith, then inserting that definition back into every text. Paul never says justification is “accomplished and merely discovered later.” He says “being justified by faith” (Romans 5:1) and “justified by faith without works” (Romans 3:28). Your system changes the meaning of those statements rather than submitting to them.

 

[KingJ]

If anyone is guilty of corrupting the word of God its you , so be ye warned

I take accusations about teaching falsely seriously, as all of us should. Scripture warns teachers to handle the Word carefully, and that should make every one of us cautious before God.

With that in mind, here are some concerns regarding the way you are handling certain texts, specifically where your conclusions appear to be driving the interpretation rather than arising from the text itself.

You are guilty of:

1. Importing conclusions into the text

You often read theological conclusions like “justified before faith” or “elect only” into passages where those ideas are not stated.

2. Inserting “elect” into texts that do not specify it

You repeatedly assume “the elect” as the subject of passages where the text simply says “man,” “world,” or “you,” without any limitation in the immediate context.

3. Isolating verses from the wider context

Texts like Romans 5:9 or Isaiah 53 are treated as standalone definitions while ignoring nearby or parallel statements such as Romans 5:1 and Galatians 2:16.

4. Redefining key biblical terms

“Justified by faith” is repeatedly redefined as “made aware of justification,” even though the text never defines it that way.

5. Creating false contradictions

Paul’s statements about justification by faith and Christ’s blood are treated as competing ideas, rather than complementary truths within the same doctrine.

6. Moving the definition after each response

When a text is addressed directly, the meaning of justification shifts to preserve the prior conclusion rather than testing the conclusion against Scripture.

7. Assuming what must be proven

Claims like “justified before faith” are asserted as established fact, then used as the interpretive lens for all other passages without independent textual proof.

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I have outlined specific concerns about your interpretive method from Scripture. If you believe I am in error, please respond with equal specificity from Scripture and show where my reading is wrong.

 

[Brightfame52]

Isaiah 53:11 says the Servant will “justify many,

Yes and how He would Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Again in Vs 12

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Brightfame52]

Calling something “unlearned” is not an argument.

Its not to the unlearned. I have given my arguments since the OP

 

[Brightfame52]

I take accusations about teaching falsely seriously,

You should, thats what you doing, be warned

 

[KingJ]

Yes and how He would Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Again in Vs 12

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Earlier Isaiah says:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way..." (Isaiah 53:6)

Notice the universal language.

Likewise, the word "many" does not automatically mean a limited predetermined group. Scripture often uses "many" to mean a great multitude in contrast to "one."

Paul actually connects Isaiah 53 to Romans 5:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19)

The same chapter also says:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

So simply pointing to the word "many" does not establish limited atonement.

More importantly, Isaiah 53 tells us how sinners are justified: Christ bears their iniquities.

It does not tell us that people are justified before faith, nor does it tell us that Christ died only for a secret group called "the elect."

Those conclusions are being imported into the text, not drawn from it.

 

[KingJ]

Its not to the unlearned. I have given my arguments since the OP

The issue is not that you have made arguments but whether your arguments actually prove your conclusions.

You have repeatedly quoted verses about:

• Christ bearing sin,
• justification,
• righteousness,
• and election.

But the point under dispute is where those verses explicitly say:

• "elect only,"
• "justified before faith,"
• or "Christ died only for a predetermined group."

Quoting a verse and then asserting a conclusion is not the same as proving the conclusion from the verse.

The reason I keep pressing these points is because your conclusions often go beyond what the text actually states.

The question is whether the scriptures you cite actually teach what you claim they teach. They don't.

 

[KingJ]

You should, thats what you doing, be warned

I do take such accusations seriously, which is precisely why I keep asking for scriptural proof rather than assertions.

Simply saying "you are teaching falsely" does not demonstrate that I am.

If I am teaching falsely, then show from scripture where I have mishandled the text and explain why my interpretation is wrong.

So far, much of this discussion has consisted of you asserting conclusions such as:

• "elect only,"
• "justified before faith,"
• and other Calvinistic conclusions,

without showing where the verses themselves explicitly teach those things.

I am happy to be corrected by scripture. But being warned is not the same as being refuted.

Please show from the text where my interpretation is wrong rather than merely repeating that it is.

 

[Brightfame52]

Are men Justified before God while in a unregenerate , unbelieving, ungodly state ? The answer is yes, if they be Gods Elect, for scripture says Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Now are the Elect, Elect before God before they are regenerate and become believers ? Again Yes, its the same as saying Gods Sheep and His Sheep before they become believers. Remember Jesus said of His Sheep that had not yet believed Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[elect] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also Paul writes that God Justified the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John Gill writes on Rom 4:5

but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly: or that ungodly one: particular reference is had to Abraham, who in his state of unregeneracy was an ungodly person; as all God's elect are in a state of nature, and are such when God justifies them, being without a righteousness of their own; wherefore he imputes the righteousness of another, even that of his own Son, unto them: 34

 

[Brightfame52]

Earlier Isaiah says:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way..." (Isaiah 53:6)

Notice the universal language.

Yes we is limited to Isaiah and his people, Gods sheep, he isnt talking about the whole world, nowhere close.

Notice the universal language.

Likewise, the word "many" does not automatically mean a limited predetermined group. Scripture often uses "many" to mean a great multitude in contrast to "one."

Yes Many is limited, though its a large number, its still limited. And Romans 5 is limited to only the elect, the non elect vessels of wrath arent in view.

 

[Brightfame52]

The issue is not that you have made arguments but whether your arguments actually prove your conclusions.

It doesnt have to prove it to you or anyone else. What matters is that God saw a reasonable scriptural presentation

But the point under dispute is where those verses explicitly say:

• "elect only,"
• "justified before faith,"
• or "Christ died only for a predetermined group."

Doesn't have to say it, just mean it from scripture observation

Please show from the text where my interpretation is wrong rather than merely repeating that it is.

I dont have time to work on your stuff, do it yourself, while I labour to show my view from scripture. you will see your errors then

 

[Brightfame52]

I do take such accusations seriously, which is precisely why I keep asking for scriptural proof rather than assertions.

I have given my scripture proofs by stating my positions with scripture, Im not just out the blue saying you teach error and oppose truth

I am happy to be corrected by scripture.

No your not

 

[KingJ]

Are men Justified before God while in a unregenerate , unbelieving, ungodly state ? The answer is yes, if they be Gods Elect, for scripture says Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Now are the Elect, Elect before God before they are regenerate and become believers ? Again Yes, its the same as saying Gods Sheep and His Sheep before they become believers. Remember Jesus said of His Sheep that had not yet believed Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[elect] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also Paul writes that God Justified the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John Gill writes on Rom 4:5

You keep adding the words "before faith" to passages that never say it.

Romans 8:33 says God justifies His elect.

Romans 4:5 says the one who believes is counted righteous.

John 10:16 says Christ's sheep will hear His voice.

None of those verses say a person is already justified while remaining an unbeliever.

 

[KingJ]

Yes we is limited to Isaiah and his people, Gods sheep, he isnt talking about the whole world, nowhere close.

You are proving my point.

The passage says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

Yet you immediately add "Isaiah's people only" and "not the whole world."

Where does Isaiah 53:6 say that?

The limitation is coming from your theological system, not from Scripture itself.

Yes Many is limited, though its a large number, its still limited. And Romans 5 is limited to only the elect, the non elect vessels of wrath arent in view.

I never said "many" means unlimited My point is that "many" does not automatically mean "the elect only."

You keep making that leap without proving it from the passage.

And where exactly does Romans 5 say "the non-elect are not in view"?

Paul says:

"judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18)

The word "elect" does not appear anywhere in the passage.

Again, you are inserting your conclusion into the Scripture rather than deriving it from Scripture.

 

[KingJ]

It doesnt have to prove it to you or anyone else. What matters is that God saw a reasonable scriptural presentation

Whether something “looks reasonable” is not the question.

If your conclusion is not supported by the passages themselves, then it is not proof, only interpretation.

Scripture must be the standard, not personal perception of reasonableness.

Doesn't have to say it, just mean it from scripture observation

If a doctrine “doesn’t have to be said” and only has to be “observed from scripture,” then anything can be inserted into the passages.

The real question remains: where do the passages themselves actually teach “elect only,” “before faith justification,” or “limited atonement” explicitly or necessarily?

Observation must still be grounded in what is actually stated, not assumed.

I dont have time to work on your stuff, do it yourself, while I labour to show my view from scripture. you will see your errors then

If your conclusions cannot be tested from the passages and you refuse to show how they follow from them, then there is no real discussion.

Claiming “I don’t have time” while making assertions leaves the argument unexamined, not proven.

If something is truly from Scripture, it should be demonstrable from Scripture.

 

[KingJ]

I have given my scripture proofs by stating my positions with scripture, Im not just out the blue saying you teach error and oppose truth

Quoting Scripture and stating a conclusion is not the same as proving the conclusion from the passage.

The issue is not whether verses were mentioned, but whether the passages actually support the specific claims being made, such as “elect only” or “justified before faith.”

That is still what has not been demonstrated.

No your not

Saying “no you’re not” is not a scriptural argument.

I have repeatedly asked to be shown from the passages where my interpretation is wrong. That is exactly what being open to correction by Scripture means.

 

[KingJ]

If your doctrine is truly from Scripture, then show it directly from the passages without adding conclusions like ‘elect only’ or ‘before faith’ that the passages themselves never state; otherwise what you are presenting is not faithful exegesis of Scripture.”

Aka false teaching. Aka enroute to eternal hell one-day.

2 Peter 2:1-3 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you… and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares… ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness…

Jude 1:13 “To whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Matthew 7:15-23 “Beware of false prophets… Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord… and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me…

Galatians 1:8-9 “If any man preach any other gospel unto you… let him be accursed.

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Your 'elect' only message is so evil. It completely misrepresents what scripture teaches.