DO THE NEW BIBLES MAKE JESUS A LIAR?

[DougE]

[John 7:8 KJV] "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come."
[John 7:8 NIV] "You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come."" ********** Jesus said he wouldn't go to the feast YET, but the NIV removes yet ****** [John 7:10 KJV] "But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." ********* Jesus did go to feast. The NIV makes Jesus a liar because he told them he wasn't going.

What I find interesting is the NIV has a footnote saying "Some manuscripts not yet". If some had yet, why did they decide to omit it? By the way, if not yet was in other manuscripts, this rules out saying a scribe added it.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings DougE,

What is/was the context of the verse you have isolated?


Bless you ....><>

 

[DougE]

Greetings DougE,

What is/was the context of the verse you have isolated?


Bless you ....><>

Please elaborate
What do you mean?

 

[Rockerduck]

Please elaborate
What do you mean?

DougE is saying that in the KJV, Jesus says He isn't going YET to the festival. The NIV states Jesus says He isn't going, then goes.. The NIV says Jesus lied.

My 1984 NIV put YET in both places though and it is correct.

 

[DougE]

Greetings DougE,

What is/was the context of the verse you have isolated?


Bless you ....><>

[John 7:2 KJV] "Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand."

I dont know what you mean by asking about context
[John 7:2 KJV] "Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand." ******* it was simply about attending the feast

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

After John 7:2 and before John 7:8, there is dialogue from who, to who, about what?

That gives some clearer context.


Bless you ....><>

PS. The earliest manuscripts did not have 'yet'.
Take a study and discover what changed things.

 

[DougE]

Greetings,

After John 7:2 and before John 7:8, there is dialogue from who, to who, about what?

That gives some clearer context.


Bless you ....><>

PS. The earliest manuscripts did not have 'yet'.
Take a study and discover what changed things.

That further dialogue has no bearing on the fact that not going up yet was omitted

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

That did not answer my question(s)

Perhaps study it a bit. You'll find 'yet' was included to specifically make the context of those verses less open for attack from critics.

If we don't include the context, we err.


Bless you ....><>

 

[DougE]

Greetings,

That did not answer my question(s)

Perhaps study it a bit. You'll find 'yet' was included to specifically make the context of those verses less open for attack from critics.

If we don't include the context, we err.


Bless you ....><>

You dont need context to see a word or verse isnt there

 

[DougE]

Perhaps study it a bit. You'll find 'yet' was included to specifically make the context of those verses less open for attack from critics.

Your opinion
There are no originals to make the assertion "yet" wasnt found in them

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Your opinion

No.

There are no originals to make the assertion "yet" wasnt found in them

That might be correct. However, I referred to manuscripts (which were in use).

As this is a Bible Study, it is good to work together.
My original points about the context are important to the 'yet' subject you raised and well worth expanding upon.

Who said what to who about what?


Bless you ....><>

 

[DougE]

Greetings,




No.

That might be correct. However, I referred to manuscripts (which were in use).

As this is a Bible Study, it is good to work together.
My original points about the context are important to the 'yet' subject you raised and well worth expanding upon.

Who said what to who about what?


Bless you ....><>

I have plenty of posts in which we can have a Bible study discussion
My point in posting these differences is just to make people aware of them as they are easily overlooked and to expound on how doctrine is affected by the changes. I am not interested in endless discussion in regard to manuscripts

 

[Curtis]

John 7:8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come."
John 7:9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.
John 7:10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.

Jesus never said he was not going to the festival; he just said he was not going up at that time. Jesus stayed in Galilee for four days, then we went up.

John 7:14 Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach.

 

[DougE]

John 7:8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come."
John 7:9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.
John 7:10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.

Jesus never said he was not going to the festival; he just said he was not going up at that time. Jesus stayed in Galilee for four days, then we went up.

John 7:14 Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach.

He didnt say "at that time"

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,


1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him.

2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto Him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did His brethren believe in Him.


6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
John 7:1-6

Note verse 3 & 4
It appears that they wanted Jesus to go to the feast so everyone could see Who He was.

Note in v6 Jesus said His time is not yet come. He was not going to follow their prompt/suggestion. Not now.
His time was a later feast.

Hence why He went up quietly/discretely mid festival.

Note also v1 & v11

11 Then the Jews sought Him at the feast, and said, Where is He?

The whole passage has a lot to say. It also explains to those who have their eyes opened by the Lord what He meant when He said He wasn't going up. Perhaps understand 'going' in the manner His brothers asked of Him is what is written. He was not going up on display.

So was it because it wasn't time to make Himself known or wasn't time to get killed.... or both?


Bless you ....><>

 

[DougE]

Note in v6 Jesus said His time is not yet come. He was not going to follow their prompt/suggestion. Not now.
His time was a later feast.

[John 7:8 KJV] "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come." ******** The KJV makes it clear Jesus was not going YET unto THIS feast and not a later feast. You could get this idea if you remove yet as it makes it say "I go not unto this feast"

 

[Curtis]

He didnt say "at that time"

It doesn't matter because the very next verse says.....John 7:9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. Jesus stayed in Galilee.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

With this particular situation of 'not' & 'not yet', being looked at here, from John 7:8, it is worth understanding that in the third century AD there was a chap named Porphyry who was influential and a critique of Christianity. Early manuscripts (possibly not all?) had οὐκ which is 'not' in the present sense in early Greek.
It was decided to add or change that to οὔπω which is 'not yet'.
KJV, which was based off other translations at the time of writing, rendered the text, 'not yet'.
Since that time further texts/manuscripts have been found which, in this case at least, have οὐκ which is why some later translation and versions render the text as 'not'.

It helps to remember that our English and the average mans lack of understanding of early Greek can result in an incomplete understanding of the original meaning of words, sentences and phrases as well as cultural expression; how something is written using things like tense, for example, going amiss to the English reading man.
In the passage of John 7 there is enough to see what is meant in most versions and translations.
KJV is most definitely to be held in high regard but it was perhaps more a version than a translation and it did have limited manuscript/text to work with.

It is understood the concern regarding dropping of 'yet' in newer versions/translations. Some might consider it to portray Jesus as lying. This is the exact reason that those writing out the early manuscripts added/changed the text from οὐκ to οὔπω.

Of note, the Greek for 'not yet' in the same verse (John 7:8) which tells us ,"for my time is not yet full come." is οὔπω.

The brethren of Jesus wanted Him to go up to the feast to make His divinity known. It might be understood His reply was to them, no. He knew it was not yet time and said so. Jesus was not going up immediately and therefore would not be seen as coming in a manner that would attract attention to Himself or the will of God concerning what was yet to unfold.


Bless you ....><>

 

[DougE]

It was decided to add or change that to οὔπω which is 'not yet'.

You think somebody added "yet", but it could also be a possibility "yet" was removed
Either position is opinion as there are no original autographs to determine what was in them
It must be decided on an individual basis which Bible to use

 

[DougE]

It is understood the concern regarding dropping of 'yet' in newer versions/translations. Some might consider it to portray Jesus as lying. This is the exact reason that those writing out the early manuscripts added/changed the text from οὐκ to οὔπω.

I dont think motive can be determined unless there is a statement from whoever produced these manuscripts.
The manuscripts used by the new Bible translators reflect the differences found. They are merely translating from those manuscripts