Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[Gerbolski]

I will get to the words the last trump, in a bit, but here is one scripture that has a trumpet in it:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

This is a second coming trumpet, and what follows this trumpet is God's judgment, and if you study the bible via trumpets, you will see that not all trumpets have the same purpose, and not every trumpet is the same trumpet, anyone who claims this, has not studied the bible very much about trumpets, which if you want to know more about that, just study the various trumpets and their purposes in the old testament.

So the claim by some is either the 7th trumpet of the 7 trumpets of Revelation is the last trump that is mentioned in Corinthians, or that this second coming trumpet is the last trump mentioned in Corinthians.

But is either of these statements true? Is there another trumpet that happens after this second coming, judgment trumpet ?

And concerning the Corinthian words of "the last trump", in what way is this said ? And what kind of trumpet is it, and what purpose does it have ?

 

[KingJ]

On the issue of the virgins, they were all called virgins, which means they were pure before God, but 5 eventually turned away from God, I know that some osas type people would probably have a problem with that, but that is what the word virgin stands for, purity, or keeping oneself pure, but of course the 5 foolish ones did not remain that way.

Sure, I am OSAS.

But I still see it as a picture of the rapture. I just don’t take “virgins” to mean they are all sealed believers. Rather, they represent people who are not yet condemned. Those who appear clean or close to God, like children or even people in church who haven’t truly repented.

So the separation isn’t saved vs lost, but truly ready vs not truly ready.

 

[KingJ]

Mat 25:3-8
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
(5) While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
(6) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
(7) Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The reason the 5 five were declared foolish, is that they did not continue in Christ, thus did not fill up their lamp with oil, thus their lamps eventually going out, which tells me that they may have had some oil at one time, but now it ran out.

Ran out of oil is very different in meaning compared to not taking oil with them.

They had lamps (appearance), but no oil (substance). So it’s not losing something, it’s never having it to begin with.

 

[KingJ]

I will get to the words the last trump, in a bit, but here is one scripture that has a trumpet in it:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

This is a second coming trumpet, and what follows this trumpet is God's judgment, and if you study the bible via trumpets, you will see that not all trumpets have the same purpose, and not every trumpet is the same trumpet, anyone who claims this, has not studied the bible very much about trumpets, which if you want to know more about that, just study the various trumpets and their purposes in the old testament.

So the claim by some is either the 7th trumpet of the 7 trumpets of Revelation is the last trump that is mentioned in Corinthians, or that this second coming trumpet is the last trump mentioned in Corinthians.

But is either of these statements true? Is there another trumpet that happens after this second coming, judgment trumpet ?

And concerning the Corinthian words of "the last trump", in what way is this said ? And what kind of trumpet is it, and what purpose does it have ?

Good point, I agree with you on this.

Not all trumpets are the same, and that’s where a lot of confusion comes in. In 1 Corinthians 15:52 the “last trump” is tied specifically to resurrection and transformation, not judgment.

“Last” doesn’t have to mean last in all of history, it can just mean last in a specific context or event.

 

[Gerbolski]

Mat 25:10-13
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you".

 

[Gerbolski]

Trumpets and resurrection

So there is this trumpet, which is a judgment trumpet:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

But then right after this event, when this judgment occurs, another trumpet gets blown, which is a different trumpet, with different purpose.

Isa 27:12-13
(12) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
(13) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

So after the second coming trumpet of judgment, this trumpet gets blown, and it is not a resurrection trumpet, or rapture trumpet, but rather a gathering trumpet, to were the children of Israel that are in various lands, get gathered to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.

You can try to add the word resurrection in these verses, but it is no were found in these verses.

Now here is the last trump verses:

1Co 15:52-53
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And what shall happen at this last trump event ?

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the second coming trumpet, or the one afterwards, is the rapture trumpet, then at that time, which everyone will become believers, for he shall destroy all unbelievers at that time (2 Thess. 1:8-9), then that would mean that every one would get a glorified body (the alive and the dead in Christ), that does not die, yet during the millennial reign there will be people who have bodies that eventually die, and that give birth, which it contradicts what happens at that time.

Luk 20:35-36
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Isa 65:20
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Now I will cover verses with the word the last day in it, and various verses mention words like last day, last days, which means a few things depending on context, and surely in many cases refer to our days or coming days.

Now in this case the word "last day" will be in the singular.


Joh 6:54
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 6:40
(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 6:44
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Can the last trump have a connection to the words, the last day?

For both refer to a resurrection ?

Could it be that simple ?

A trumpet of the last day, to were the church gets caught up ? The last day before the tribulation starts, which culminates in a ressurection ?

 

[KingJ]

Mat 25:10-13
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you".

It’s the same context and meaning in both phrases.

Both are about outward association versus genuine relationship, not people moving in and out of salvation.

 

[joestue]

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you"

thanks for pointing that out.
I never realized he said something different between those two different chapters.

A decade ago when i was more interested in debate in real life, I warned people that there is no reason to believe Jesus is going to say the exact same words to everyone, as we all have different varying degrees of knowledge, and rebellion. so you can't support OSAS based on one sentence of what "i NEVER knew you" means.

they of course, wouldn't hear it then, as they won't hear it now.

For years a friend of mine was hung up on that verse:
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

 

[backNforth]

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

Beautiful discernment.

And as a deliverance minister, I will second that. A "senior" demon will often throw a "junior" demon under the bus, making you think you got a victory but in fact you got a big nothing burger.

Yes, it's about justification (through faith) leading to sanctification (fit for the Master's service). Absent that, we're witnesses to nothing but a lot of
self-aggrandizing by powerless people (re: the OP).

 

[KingJ]

thanks for pointing that out.
I never realized he said something different between those two different chapters.

A decade ago when i was more interested in debate in real life, I warned people that there is no reason to believe Jesus is going to say the exact same words to everyone, as we all have different varying degrees of knowledge, and rebellion. so you can't support OSAS based on one sentence of what "i NEVER knew you" means.

they of course, wouldn't hear it then, as they won't hear it now.

For years a friend of mine was hung up on that verse:
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

God knows everyone. The fact that the two scriptures given both say ''I never knew you' and 'I know you not' is rather obviously not being known as a Christian / someone righteous whose steps He directs.

No demons need to be involved. The works mentioned in Matt 7:22-23 are all works that can appeal to vanity. God would never say ''I never knew you'' to someone performing James 1:27 works.

You guys also keep misunderstanding what most OSAS (non Calvinist) believers believe. We believe God is not a human. Unlike us He can judge heart and mind Jer 17:9-12. We can make mistakes of thinking we are saved and not be saved 1 Cor 10:12. God does not make that same mistake.

How can any of you who do not believe in OSAS, also believe in eternal bliss? If you can lose salvation, how can it ever be secure?

Either God can properly judge and vet person or He can't. And if He can, why do you insist on it being time based? ''He cannot judge now, only when we die''. He needs us to die before He can know us?

Not to mention that non-OSAS hits a brick wall in that it implies God is partial to some, when there are 17 scriptures clearly stating that He is not partial.

I mean this respectfully, non-OSAS is such a silly belief. I am just shocked that so many push it and believe it. It terribly misrepresents God.

 

[joestue]

No demons need to be involved

an out of context reply.

the fools who believed they were saved but were not, casting out fake demons, appeal to self justification on the day of judgement.

 

[joestue]

God would never say ''I never knew you'' to someone performing James 1:27 works.

works of the flesh will not justify you.

people like mother teresa did all these good things and get publically known from it, but only God knows their hearts.

 

[KingJ]

an out of context reply.

the fools who believed they were saved but were not, casting out fake demons, appeal to self justification on the day of judgement.

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?

works of the flesh will not justify you.

people like mother teresa did all these good things and get publically known from it, but only God knows their hearts.

James 1:27 starts with 'religion undefiled'. Helping orphans is tied at the hip to Christianity. You cannot do such unless you have a heart that will accept Jesus.

Mother Theresa, you are so wrong, you need to study more.

---------------------

You need to picture yourself arriving at the pearly gates.

Person 1 - Jesus, I died while casting out demons, real demons, let me in.

Person 2 - Hi Jesus, I died while feeding orphans, this place looks nice, where am I?

Jesus to Person 1 - Is there anyone here in heaven that gives a single hoot that this person cast out demons? Anyone? Hello, anyone?

Maybe if you needed to fast many days for the demon to come out and were very committed to helping a person, sure.

Jesus to Person 2 - Welcome my good and faithful child. There are many orphans and their extremely grateful family members here. Eager to meet and greet you.

There is simply no such thing as any person who did such ever going to hell. Everyone in heaven, including Jesus would object to that.

 

[joestue]

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?



James 1:27 starts with 'religion undefiled'. Helping orphans is tied at the hip to Christianity. You cannot do such unless you have a heart that will accept Jesus.

Mother Theresa, you are so wrong, you need to study more.

---------------------

You need to picture yourself arriving at the pearly gates.

Person 1 - Jesus, I died while casting out demons, real demons, let me in.

Person 2 - Hi Jesus, I died while feeding orphans, this place looks nice, where am I?

Jesus to Person 1 - Is there anyone here in heaven that gives a single hoot that this person cast out demons? Anyone? Hello, anyone?

Maybe if you needed to fast many days for the demon to come out and were very committed to helping a person, sure.

Jesus to Person 2 - Welcome my good and faithful child. There are many orphans and their extremely grateful family members here. Eager to meet and greet you.

There is simply no such thing as any person who did such ever going to hell. Everyone in heaven, including Jesus would object to that.

Its like you are addicted to wasting yours and other peoples time at this point in the conversation.

 

[joestue]

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?

Yes because Jesus in accordance with the Will of the Father is the only person who can give humans power to drive out demons..


This is why they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of demons.

 

[KingJ]

Its like you are addicted to wasting yours and other peoples time at this point in the conversation.

This coming from someone who does not engage in proper debate. It's like you only have these ad hominem one liners.

You raise weak points and then avoid being pressed on them. Same pattern from @backNforth and @farmerjoe.

 

[KingJ]

Yes because Jesus in accordance with the Will of the Father is the only person who can give humans power to drive out demons..

This is why they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of demons.

You’re missing the point. The issue isn’t whether God can give that power, of course He can. The issue is whether those works are reliable evidence of salvation.

Works mentioned in James 1:27 show actual fruit and a transformed life. Not spectacular works that can be faked / imitated and appeal to vanity.

 

[Bill]

Oh well God is good, and he is coming soon, it is important to know what the bible says about things, even in it's symbolism via the feast days, and what it says about many various trumpets, for it is in the bible, and various trumpets had different functions, different warnings and different purposes, it is in the old testament for a reason, and not to be ignored, but also it is good to look into marriages in the time of Jesus, such as the marriage of Cana in some fashion.

Of course I am a pre-triber, and whatever argument people want to give, which some are silly to me, whatever.

The 10 virgins is a good example of the rapture, but there is another scripture that many pre-tribers use, that has nothing to do with the rapture.

Luk 17:34-37
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

These verses go along with this:

Rev 19:17-18
(17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
(18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The ones taken in Luke 17, speaks of judgment, and not something good, the ones left, are the ones that are going to be left alive, so to go in the millennial reign, but the ones taken, well they shall receive judgment, and their bodies shall be eaten by the fowls of the air.

This is a second coming thing and not a rapture thing.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Something that many overlook is that it's God's choice. Whether a person is taken or left behind it doesn't mean that that person doesn't have faith. It just means that God chooses to take them. So remember when it says that some are left behind and some that are taken doesn't mean that the ones left behind are not Christians or don't have enough faith, it's just that God chooses to leave them behind for the sake of the others. This is the major issue that I try to make often. I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. But in that concept I do try to make the point that God is going to leave some Christians behind based on that thinking. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense, how can we have the 144,000 for instance, they're God's, not talking about the Jews, He's talking about us.

In the scripture, Paul talks about what it is to be a Jew. He's not talking about the Jews themselves, he's talking about the children of God. A true child of God is someone who should be as a Jew of the Old Testament who has no doubt in their mind and know exactly who God is.

The Jews who survived during the time of Moses, those who survived the desert for 40 years had it drilled into them who God is. They only survived by their faith in God for their water and for their food every single day.

This is the type of faith that God wants from us, to put God in the center of our lives with no other distractions.

Anyone who does this, Anyone who puts God in the center of your life is a Jew.

If you understand this then all the scripture will make more sense to you. You will understand what Paul is trying to say to you in the scriptures and you will understand also that's 144,000 Jews that are talked about in Revelations is not talking about the Israelites, it's talking about the Christians.

The 144,000 are not all of who the Christians are but they are the ones who are especially chosen by God to be teachers of that time. There will be many other Christians just not as many as there is now. These Christians are what is told to us as being the remnant. As they are all that's going to be left.

And the scripture that is for the world but it's primarily for us the Christians in regards to the Mark of the Beast, is a warning for us not to take the mark. Because the mark represents a separation between us and God

It says in Revelations that God is going to put his seal on us on our foreheads. And those who have sight to see it we'll see the circle with the cross in the middle.

But those who take the mark are going to take another seal on their foreheads, and that seal will separate you from God.

It is because of the great grace of the breaking of The Sixth Seal, the day in which God is going to reveal himself to us to the whole world, every man woman and child. There will be no doubt in your mind that God is real. It is because of this that afterwards when the mark of the beast comes that that particular sin is so Grievous for us. Because we know that God is real. And God has told us not to take that Mark.

This is why I stress so strongly to preachers not to sit there and tell people it's okay to take the mark, cuz not only will you damn every single one who takes the mark but you'll damn yourself as well. It's an automatic death sentence to hell

 

[Gerbolski]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Something that many overlook is that it's God's choice. Whether a person is taken or left behind it doesn't mean that that person doesn't have faith. It just means that God chooses to take them. So remember when it says that some are left behind and some that are taken doesn't mean that the ones left behind are not Christians or don't have enough faith, it's just that God chooses to leave them behind for the sake of the others. This is the major issue that I try to make often. I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. But in that concept I do try to make the point that God is going to leave some Christians behind based on that thinking. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense, how can we have the 144,000 for instance, they're God's, not talking about the Jews, He's talking about us.

In the scripture, Paul talks about what it is to be a Jew. He's not talking about the Jews themselves, he's talking about the children of God. A true child of God is someone who should be as a Jew of the Old Testament who has no doubt in their mind and know exactly who God is.

The Jews who survived during the time of Moses, those who survived the desert for 40 years had it drilled into them who God is. They only survived by their faith in God for their water and for their food every single day.

This is the type of faith that God wants from us, to put God in the center of our lives with no other distractions.

Anyone who does this, Anyone who puts God in the center of your life is a Jew.

If you understand this then all the scripture will make more sense to you. You will understand what Paul is trying to say to you in the scriptures and you will understand also that's 144,000 Jews that are talked about in Revelations is not talking about the Israelites, it's talking about the Christians.

The 144,000 are not all of who the Christians are but they are the ones who are especially chosen by God to be teachers of that time. There will be many other Christians just not as many as there is now. These Christians are what is told to us as being the remnant. As they are all that's going to be left.

And the scripture that is for the world but it's primarily for us the Christians in regards to the Mark of the Beast, is a warning for us not to take the mark. Because the mark represents a separation between us and God

It says in Revelations that God is going to put his seal on us on our foreheads. And those who have sight to see it we'll see the circle with the cross in the middle.

But those who take the mark are going to take another seal on their foreheads, and that seal will separate you from God.

It is because of the great grace of the breaking of The Sixth Seal, the day in which God is going to reveal himself to us to the whole world, every man woman and child. There will be no doubt in your mind that God is real. It is because of this that afterwards when the mark of the beast comes that that particular sin is so Grievous for us. Because we know that God is real. And God has told us not to take that Mark.

This is why I stress so strongly to preachers not to sit there and tell people it's okay to take the mark, cuz not only will you damn every single one who takes the mark but you'll damn yourself as well. It's an automatic death sentence to hell

Yes do not receive the mark, but there will be people getting saved in the tribulation period, and God will send the 2 witnesses to bring a witness to the people.

Who is God coming for at the rapture ?

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He is coming for them that are in Christ, so if that is the case, then the ones left behind are not in Christ, because he came to get the ones that are in Christ, but that does not mean that one cannot get saved and finally be in Christ in the tribulation period.

And yes do not receive the mark.

 

[joestue]

You’re missing the point. The issue isn’t whether God can give that power, of course He can. The issue is whether those works are reliable evidence of salvation.

Works mentioned in James 1:27 show actual fruit and a transformed life. Not spectacular works that can be faked / imitated and appeal to vanity.

no, not missing the point, i'm answering your strange trap you tried to set.

public works of the flesh like feeding the poor, even the evil kings of the earth do that with their welfare programs.

demonstrating supernatural power that is from God, is evidence of salvation. as Jesus says, you will know my people by their fruit.

since when have you seen a demon heal a person?