Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[Gerbolski]

I will get to the words the last trump, in a bit, but here is one scripture that has a trumpet in it:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

This is a second coming trumpet, and what follows this trumpet is God's judgment, and if you study the bible via trumpets, you will see that not all trumpets have the same purpose, and not every trumpet is the same trumpet, anyone who claims this, has not studied the bible very much about trumpets, which if you want to know more about that, just study the various trumpets and their purposes in the old testament.

So the claim by some is either the 7th trumpet of the 7 trumpets of Revelation is the last trump that is mentioned in Corinthians, or that this second coming trumpet is the last trump mentioned in Corinthians.

But is either of these statements true? Is there another trumpet that happens after this second coming, judgment trumpet ?

And concerning the Corinthian words of "the last trump", in what way is this said ? And what kind of trumpet is it, and what purpose does it have ?

 

[KingJ]

On the issue of the virgins, they were all called virgins, which means they were pure before God, but 5 eventually turned away from God, I know that some osas type people would probably have a problem with that, but that is what the word virgin stands for, purity, or keeping oneself pure, but of course the 5 foolish ones did not remain that way.

Sure, I am OSAS.

But I still see it as a picture of the rapture. I just don’t take “virgins” to mean they are all sealed believers. Rather, they represent people who are not yet condemned. Those who appear clean or close to God, like children or even people in church who haven’t truly repented.

So the separation isn’t saved vs lost, but truly ready vs not truly ready.

 

[KingJ]

Mat 25:3-8
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
(5) While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
(6) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
(7) Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The reason the 5 five were declared foolish, is that they did not continue in Christ, thus did not fill up their lamp with oil, thus their lamps eventually going out, which tells me that they may have had some oil at one time, but now it ran out.

Ran out of oil is very different in meaning compared to not taking oil with them.

They had lamps (appearance), but no oil (substance). So it’s not losing something, it’s never having it to begin with.

 

[KingJ]

I will get to the words the last trump, in a bit, but here is one scripture that has a trumpet in it:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

This is a second coming trumpet, and what follows this trumpet is God's judgment, and if you study the bible via trumpets, you will see that not all trumpets have the same purpose, and not every trumpet is the same trumpet, anyone who claims this, has not studied the bible very much about trumpets, which if you want to know more about that, just study the various trumpets and their purposes in the old testament.

So the claim by some is either the 7th trumpet of the 7 trumpets of Revelation is the last trump that is mentioned in Corinthians, or that this second coming trumpet is the last trump mentioned in Corinthians.

But is either of these statements true? Is there another trumpet that happens after this second coming, judgment trumpet ?

And concerning the Corinthian words of "the last trump", in what way is this said ? And what kind of trumpet is it, and what purpose does it have ?

Good point, I agree with you on this.

Not all trumpets are the same, and that’s where a lot of confusion comes in. In 1 Corinthians 15:52 the “last trump” is tied specifically to resurrection and transformation, not judgment.

“Last” doesn’t have to mean last in all of history, it can just mean last in a specific context or event.

 

[Gerbolski]

Mat 25:10-13
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you".

 

[Gerbolski]

Trumpets and resurrection

So there is this trumpet, which is a judgment trumpet:

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

But then right after this event, when this judgment occurs, another trumpet gets blown, which is a different trumpet, with different purpose.

Isa 27:12-13
(12) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
(13) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

So after the second coming trumpet of judgment, this trumpet gets blown, and it is not a resurrection trumpet, or rapture trumpet, but rather a gathering trumpet, to were the children of Israel that are in various lands, get gathered to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.

You can try to add the word resurrection in these verses, but it is no were found in these verses.

Now here is the last trump verses:

1Co 15:52-53
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And what shall happen at this last trump event ?

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the second coming trumpet, or the one afterwards, is the rapture trumpet, then at that time, which everyone will become believers, for he shall destroy all unbelievers at that time (2 Thess. 1:8-9), then that would mean that every one would get a glorified body (the alive and the dead in Christ), that does not die, yet during the millennial reign there will be people who have bodies that eventually die, and that give birth, which it contradicts what happens at that time.

Luk 20:35-36
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Isa 65:20
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Now I will cover verses with the word the last day in it, and various verses mention words like last day, last days, which means a few things depending on context, and surely in many cases refer to our days or coming days.

Now in this case the word "last day" will be in the singular.


Joh 6:54
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 6:40
(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 6:44
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Can the last trump have a connection to the words, the last day?

For both refer to a resurrection ?

Could it be that simple ?

A trumpet of the last day, to were the church gets caught up ? The last day before the tribulation starts, which culminates in a ressurection ?

 

[KingJ]

Mat 25:10-13
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you".

It’s the same context and meaning in both phrases.

Both are about outward association versus genuine relationship, not people moving in and out of salvation.

 

[joestue]

Concerning the virgins which means purity, he did not say "I never, ever knew you", but rather the reason the Lord said I know you not, is because they had not prepared themselves to meet the Lamb, God saw no more oil and light in them, thus the saying "I know you not".

But concerning Matthew chapter 7 , of the ones that call him Lord, and proclaim to do many things in his name, to them, he says, "I never knew you"

thanks for pointing that out.
I never realized he said something different between those two different chapters.

A decade ago when i was more interested in debate in real life, I warned people that there is no reason to believe Jesus is going to say the exact same words to everyone, as we all have different varying degrees of knowledge, and rebellion. so you can't support OSAS based on one sentence of what "i NEVER knew you" means.

they of course, wouldn't hear it then, as they won't hear it now.

For years a friend of mine was hung up on that verse:
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

 

[backNforth]

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

Beautiful discernment.

And as a deliverance minister, I will second that. A "senior" demon will often throw a "junior" demon under the bus, making you think you got a victory but in fact you got a big nothing burger.

Yes, it's about justification (through faith) leading to sanctification (fit for the Master's service). Absent that, we're witnesses to nothing but a lot of
self-aggrandizing by powerless people (re: the OP).

 

[KingJ]

thanks for pointing that out.
I never realized he said something different between those two different chapters.

A decade ago when i was more interested in debate in real life, I warned people that there is no reason to believe Jesus is going to say the exact same words to everyone, as we all have different varying degrees of knowledge, and rebellion. so you can't support OSAS based on one sentence of what "i NEVER knew you" means.

they of course, wouldn't hear it then, as they won't hear it now.

For years a friend of mine was hung up on that verse:
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

to mean that you could prophesy, and cast out demons without knowing the Lord. i told him i don't believe that. these are people who were deceived, and or knew it was deception, a hoax, the demons leave then come back later because you didn't actually cast them out, they just left on their own accord.. so they attempt to self justify themseves before Jesus because they knew they were not justified.

lightbulb goes on... oh.... that makes more sense.

God knows everyone. The fact that the two scriptures given both say ''I never knew you' and 'I know you not' is rather obviously not being known as a Christian / someone righteous whose steps He directs.

No demons need to be involved. The works mentioned in Matt 7:22-23 are all works that can appeal to vanity. God would never say ''I never knew you'' to someone performing James 1:27 works.

You guys also keep misunderstanding what most OSAS (non Calvinist) believers believe. We believe God is not a human. Unlike us He can judge heart and mind Jer 17:9-12. We can make mistakes of thinking we are saved and not be saved 1 Cor 10:12. God does not make that same mistake.

How can any of you who do not believe in OSAS, also believe in eternal bliss? If you can lose salvation, how can it ever be secure?

Either God can properly judge and vet person or He can't. And if He can, why do you insist on it being time based? ''He cannot judge now, only when we die''. He needs us to die before He can know us?

Not to mention that non-OSAS hits a brick wall in that it implies God is partial to some, when there are 17 scriptures clearly stating that He is not partial.

I mean this respectfully, non-OSAS is such a silly belief. I am just shocked that so many push it and believe it. It terribly misrepresents God.

 

[joestue]

No demons need to be involved

an out of context reply.

the fools who believed they were saved but were not, casting out fake demons, appeal to self justification on the day of judgement.

 

[joestue]

God would never say ''I never knew you'' to someone performing James 1:27 works.

works of the flesh will not justify you.

people like mother teresa did all these good things and get publically known from it, but only God knows their hearts.

 

[KingJ]

an out of context reply.

the fools who believed they were saved but were not, casting out fake demons, appeal to self justification on the day of judgement.

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?

works of the flesh will not justify you.

people like mother teresa did all these good things and get publically known from it, but only God knows their hearts.

James 1:27 starts with 'religion undefiled'. Helping orphans is tied at the hip to Christianity. You cannot do such unless you have a heart that will accept Jesus.

Mother Theresa, you are so wrong, you need to study more.

---------------------

You need to picture yourself arriving at the pearly gates.

Person 1 - Jesus, I died while casting out demons, real demons, let me in.

Person 2 - Hi Jesus, I died while feeding orphans, this place looks nice, where am I?

Jesus to Person 1 - Is there anyone here in heaven that gives a single hoot that this person cast out demons? Anyone? Hello, anyone?

Maybe if you needed to fast many days for the demon to come out and were very committed to helping a person, sure.

Jesus to Person 2 - Welcome my good and faithful child. There are many orphans and their extremely grateful family members here. Eager to meet and greet you.

There is simply no such thing as any person who did such ever going to hell. Everyone in heaven, including Jesus would object to that.

 

[joestue]

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?



James 1:27 starts with 'religion undefiled'. Helping orphans is tied at the hip to Christianity. You cannot do such unless you have a heart that will accept Jesus.

Mother Theresa, you are so wrong, you need to study more.

---------------------

You need to picture yourself arriving at the pearly gates.

Person 1 - Jesus, I died while casting out demons, real demons, let me in.

Person 2 - Hi Jesus, I died while feeding orphans, this place looks nice, where am I?

Jesus to Person 1 - Is there anyone here in heaven that gives a single hoot that this person cast out demons? Anyone? Hello, anyone?

Maybe if you needed to fast many days for the demon to come out and were very committed to helping a person, sure.

Jesus to Person 2 - Welcome my good and faithful child. There are many orphans and their extremely grateful family members here. Eager to meet and greet you.

There is simply no such thing as any person who did such ever going to hell. Everyone in heaven, including Jesus would object to that.

Its like you are addicted to wasting yours and other peoples time at this point in the conversation.

 

[joestue]

Oh, so if you cast out real demons, it is guaranteed that you will be known by Jesus?

Yes because Jesus in accordance with the Will of the Father is the only person who can give humans power to drive out demons..


This is why they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of demons.

 

[KingJ]

Its like you are addicted to wasting yours and other peoples time at this point in the conversation.

This coming from someone who does not engage in proper debate. It's like you only have these ad hominem one liners.

You raise weak points and then avoid being pressed on them. Same pattern from @backNforth and @farmerjoe.

 

[KingJ]

Yes because Jesus in accordance with the Will of the Father is the only person who can give humans power to drive out demons..

This is why they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of demons.

You’re missing the point. The issue isn’t whether God can give that power, of course He can. The issue is whether those works are reliable evidence of salvation.

Works mentioned in James 1:27 show actual fruit and a transformed life. Not spectacular works that can be faked / imitated and appeal to vanity.