Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[Bill]

Very good questions, thanks Bill. I love interrogating a belief with logic.

I believe that all children and mentally handicapped will also be raptured. They will be tested in the millennium.

As for my friends and such, God is a righteous judge Job 34:12 that can judge depths of intent of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. If He decides to not rapture someone it is because they have not yet passed a test of heart and mind for sincere repentance of sin.

We need to understand that the tribulation period is a necessary period as anyone who rejects Jesus is an individual that will require a tribulation level filtering process to come right with God.

Many Christians need to grasp that God is looking for depth of intent heart over works. You can sit in church every Sunday for 100 years and still be far from God. Still not love God.

I mean for arguments sake, look at how so many Christians do not see a problem in misrepresenting God as evil and unjust. It's like they just don't know Him or grasp what really matters.

What of the Two Witnesses, we will not be Raptured. Does this mean we are not worthy? And what of those God choses to remain behind, to preach to the rest of the world?

 

[Brad Huber]

Are you God... to say what is evil and what isnt as far as God's allowing evil and hard times to occur?

 

[KingJ]

What of the Two Witnesses, we will not be Raptured. Does this mean we are not worthy? And what of those God choses to remain behind, to preach to the rest of the world?

God does not choose for any to remain behind. Two witnesses are sent to preach.

 

[KingJ]

Are you God... to say what is evil and what isnt as far as God's allowing evil and hard times to occur?

Do I have to be God to grasp what is good and evil?

 

[KingJ]

I was thinking, I should have added the following fact into my OP.

If there is no pre-trib rapture event, but only a second coming after a seven year tribulation, how do you explain the below verse?

Matt 24:40-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Scripture is crystal clear that at the second coming of Jesus, every knee will bow. Not, one person will be taken and the other left behind.

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There should be absolutely no doubt that scripture is referencing two separate events.

 

[B-A-C]

Do I have to be God to grasp what is good and evil?

actually.. yes.

att 24:40-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Why does this ave to be "pre" trib. Why is there anything in this verse that says "pre"?

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

This is the only time anyone will be taken up. "after" the trib.
2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

No one is gathered together with Jesus until after this happens.

 

[farmerjoe]

The purpose of the sheep and goats judgment is to determine who does and who does not enter the Millennium. That's not the so called 'rapture'.

 

[B-A-C]

'rapture'.

All the word "rapture" means.. is gather up of gather together... a number of verses in post #66, mention "agther together" and "gather up". The timing is debateable, the "gather up" is not. The Bible says it will happen.

 

[farmerjoe]

All the word "rapture" means.. is gather up of gather together... a number of verses in post #66, mention "agther together" and "gather up". The timing is debateable, the "gather up" is not. The Bible says it will happen.

• Theological Definition: Derived from the Latin rapturo (and Greek harpazo), meaning "to be caught up" or "snatched away". It refers to the belief that believers will be taken to heaven, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
  .
  
  • Etymology: Originated from Latin rapere, meaning "to seize or snatch".

to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10; used of divine power transferring a person marvellously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away:

Timing is not debatable. Jesus said it occurs at the end of tribulation. Not before, not in the middle. AT THE END!

 

[Dave M]

the bible says Jesus only comes back one time after his resurrection, in order to believe in a pre trib rapture you have to believe that Jesus comes back two times. That is not what the bible teaches.

Of course the objections will come,, that say when Jesus comes for the rapture (pre trib) that he does not touch the ground,, he is in the air. First off that is so lame, to consider he is in the clouds yet it does not count for his return. His second coming, he is in the clouds also.

Another lame excuse I hear is, that God will not pour out his wrath on his children YES I agree, but wear this excuses becomes lame is all the examples in the bible and we have several the flood, pass over, lot, God pours out his wrath, yet is able to protect his children. SO if a person claims God will pre trib rapture because tribulation is not for his children his children are not appointed wrath, well that means you do not think God can protect his children, which I find hard to believe that anyone who believes in God would believe such a thing.

And then of course we have the made up name that came from men, that so many cling to the tribulation saints !! no wear in the bible is there such a name.

Then of we have the great revival we hear about so many claiming that happens in the tribulation, but I can show you at least two versus that says no one NO ONE repents, no one can show one verse of revival. I know about the speculation that people make up about the people that came out of tribulation and are standing in front of the thrown in heaven,,, and people love to point to that for some reason and claim they came to Christ during the tribulation, YET it does not say when they came to Christ all it says is they came out of the tribulation, so it could be they were already believers.

No I do not believe in the pre trib,,, I do believe in the rapture at the end of the age, when Jesus returns to gather is saints in the clouds just the like the bible says !!

But I certainly will not accuse evil of God one way or another, that is dumbest thing I have ever seen on any Christian forum and exposes the pride of anyone who would say such a foolish thing. I pray for that person revelation from Christ on the manor

 

[Brad Huber]

Do I have to be God to grasp what is good and evil?

not only did you not answer the question, but you forget that thinking knowing good and evil is what got us into the fallen state we are in. But the reason we werent to eat the fruit is that we were not ABLE to correctly always choose whats good or evil, yet often think we do, as you are doing now

 

[KingJ]

actually.. yes.

actually....no.

What part of Gen 3:22 is confusing?

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

Why does this ave to be "pre" trib. Why is there anything in this verse that says "pre"?

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

This is the only time anyone will be taken up. "after" the trib.
2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

No one is gathered together with Jesus until after this happens.

I feel like your brain has switched off. You like to dance around points made.

Are you for real? Do you really just not 'get it'?

Lets say you and I are invited to a party. Your invitation states that everyone in the suburb is invited and will be forced to bow their knee to the host. Mine says the host will specially select some from the suburb and only have an exclusive party.

What person on this planet with a working brain will think its the same party?

 

[KingJ]

not only did you not answer the question,

An answer is not disqualified simply because you don't like or agree with it.

As I asked BAC, what part of Gen 3:22 is confusing for you?

Gen 3:22 Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

but you forget that thinking knowing good and evil is what got us into the fallen state we are in. But the reason we werent to eat the fruit is that we were not ABLE to correctly always choose whats good or evil, yet often think we do, as you are doing now

Adam and Eve did not THINK that eating the fruit was a good thing. What nonsense! They had full knowledge that it was evil.

That the flesh is weak is a completely separate topic.

 

[KingJ]

the bible says Jesus only comes back one time after his resurrection, in order to believe in a pre trib rapture you have to believe that Jesus comes back two times. That is not what the bible teaches.

Of course the objections will come,, that say when Jesus comes for the rapture (pre trib) that he does not touch the ground,, he is in the air. First off that is so lame, to consider he is in the clouds yet it does not count for his return. His second coming, he is in the clouds also.

Another lame excuse I hear is, that God will not pour out his wrath on his children YES I agree, but wear this excuses becomes lame is all the examples in the bible and we have several the flood, pass over, lot, God pours out his wrath, yet is able to protect his children. SO if a person claims God will pre trib rapture because tribulation is not for his children his children are not appointed wrath, well that means you do not think God can protect his children, which I find hard to believe that anyone who believes in God would believe such a thing.

And then of course we have the made up name that came from men, that so many cling to the tribulation saints !! no wear in the bible is there such a name.

Then of we have the great revival we hear about so many claiming that happens in the tribulation, but I can show you at least two versus that says no one NO ONE repents, no one can show one verse of revival. I know about the speculation that people make up about the people that came out of tribulation and are standing in front of the thrown in heaven,,, and people love to point to that for some reason and claim they came to Christ during the tribulation, YET it does not say when they came to Christ all it says is they came out of the tribulation, so it could be they were already believers.

No I do not believe in the pre trib,,, I do believe in the rapture at the end of the age, when Jesus returns to gather is saints in the clouds just the like the bible says !!

But I certainly will not accuse evil of God one way or another, that is dumbest thing I have ever seen on any Christian forum and exposes the pride of anyone who would say such a foolish thing. I pray for that person revelation from Christ on the manor

Dave, you are repeating the same mistake BAC made. You are building your argument entirely from passages describing the second coming at the end of the tribulation, and then assuming that must be the only event scripture speaks about.

No one denies Christ returns in glory at the end of the tribulation. The question is whether scripture also describes a separate gathering of the Church before that event.

The Bible clearly describes believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

In Thessalonians 4:16-17 we are told the dead in Christ rise and believers are caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Nothing there says Christ descends to earth or establishes the kingdom. It simply says the Church is gathered to Him.

That is very different from the scene described at the end of the tribulation where Christ returns to the earth with His saints (Revelation 19:14).

So the “Jesus only comes once” objection doesn’t really work.

Your second point about God protecting people during wrath, yes, God protected Noah and Lot. But notice what He did first.

Noah was sealed in the ark before the flood began.
Lot was removed from Sodom before the fire fell.

In fact the angel explicitly says in Gen 19:22: “I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”

Judgment did not begin until the righteous were removed. That pattern fits perfectly with the idea that God removes His people before the tribulation.

You also say believers can simply be protected through the tribulation. But the tribulation is not just persecution. Scripture calls it the wrath of God. Yet the Church is told plainly in Thess 5:9 that “God has not appointed us to wrath.”

 

[KingJ]

Why does this ave to be "pre" trib. Why is there anything in this verse that says "pre"?

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

This is the only time anyone will be taken up. "after" the trib.
2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

No one is gathered together with Jesus until after this happens.

BAC, you are assuming the point you need to prove.

Yes, Matthew 24:29–31 clearly describes Christ returning after the tribulation and gathering His elect. No one disputes that.

But you are simply declaring that this must be the only gathering of believers in scripture, and then forcing every other passage into that event.

Yet in Thessalonians 4:16–17 believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That passage does not mention the tribulation ending, cosmic signs, or Christ descending to earth in judgment like Matthew 24 does.

You also keep ignoring two points raised:

Jesus said no one knows the day or hour (Matthew 24:36), and He described a sudden separation where one is taken and another left (Matthew 24:40–41).

That does not sound like the very public, globally visible return of Christ after an exact seven year tribulation at the end of an exact six thousand years, where every eye sees Him.

So the real question is: why are you assuming every passage about believers being gathered must describe the same single event, when the details clearly differ?

 

[farmerjoe]

BAC, you are assuming the point you need to prove.

Yes, Matthew 24:29–31 clearly describes Christ returning after the tribulation and gathering His elect. No one disputes that.

But you are simply declaring that this must be the only gathering of believers in scripture, and then forcing every other passage into that event.

Yet in Thessalonians 4:16–17 believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That passage does not mention the tribulation ending, cosmic signs, or Christ descending to earth in judgment like Matthew 24 does.

You also keep ignoring two points raised:

Jesus said no one knows the day or hour (Matthew 24:36), and He described a sudden separation where one is taken and another left (Matthew 24:40–41).

That does not sound like the very public, globally visible return of Christ after an exact seven year tribulation at the end of an exact six thousand years, where every eye sees Him.

So the real question is: why are you assuming every passage about believers being gathered must describe the same single event, when the details clearly differ?

There's no use arguing this very simple issue with a misled pre-tribber. KingJ is on the right page. You have fallen for the Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye sensationalist. You are quite misled to think that every rapture passage has to mention the exact same things. I hate pre-trib with a passion.

 

[KingJ]

There's no use arguing this very simple issue with a misled pre-tribber. KingJ is on the right page. You have fallen for the Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye sensationalist. You are quite misled to think that every rapture passage has to mention the exact same things. I hate pre-trib with a passion.

You have yet to explain why you hate a pre-trib rapture. I would love to hear your reasons.

 

[farmerjoe]

You have yet to explain why you hate a pre-trib rapture. I would love to hear your reasons.

It's the most deceitful teaching to ever enter Christianity. It's a false hope. It contradicts the words of Jesus. It occurs at the last trump - prescribers say it occurs seven years before. Want more?

 

[KingJ]

It's the most deceitful teaching to ever enter Christianity. It's a false hope. It contradicts the words of Jesus. It occurs at the last trump - prescribers say it occurs seven years before. Want more?

How does it contradict the words of Jesus?

What are your thoughts on the three items raised in the OP?

False hope? Do you not think a kid that you adopted as your own son needs to be rescued from your wrath and protected from your enemy?

Not believing in a rapture event makes a mockery of scripture and implies God is evil.

 

[Bill]

God does not choose for any to remain behind. Two witnesses are sent to preach.

But he does choose for us to reach out to the ends of the Earth, to preach the word. And it is the command of Jesus to do this.

It's not the command of Jesus to be so consumed over the Rapture business. Is Jesus States not to worry about the future, but to deal with today.
We should be more consumed about praying for each other, trying to bring everyone possible into the kingdom of God.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen people on this very website tell me how they are going to receive a crown in heaven and judge the rest of the world with God. When they clearly forget that there's only one judge. And to be honest with you I would not want the responsibility of judging other people.