Bad Assumptions about the Bible

[B-A-C]

1. When Jesus stopped the adulterer from being stoned was He doing so under the old covenant or a new one?

The old one definitely. According to John 3:3-5 anyway.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Question: The man in 1Cor 5 (being turned over to Satan) after Jesus was resurrected, was he under the old or new?

2. Do you believe any in Abraham's bosom / paradise will be kept out of heaven?

The ones on the Paradise side, no.. the ones on the hades side.. yes.

God will not ever make the mistake of grafting someone with a heart like Judas's into heaven.

and the biggest mistake here, is thinking that giving someone a chance is a mistake.

 

[KingJ]

The old one definitely. According to John 3:3-5 anyway.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

How so? If it was the old, the adulterer would be stoned to death.

Lev 20:10 ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife with the wife of his neighbor both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Jesus was bringing the new covenant. All those verses in John you quoted reference a new covenant. Born again = new covenant. You cannot get more 'new covenant' than that .

Question: The man in 1Cor 5 (being turned over to Satan) after Jesus was resurrected, was he under the old or new?

New. Nobody continuing in sin unrepentant must think they are Christians 1 Cor 6:9-11 and most certainly not anyone continuing in mortal sin 1 Cor 5:1.

I know your follow up will be, ''see, under the new covenant, this man was a Christian handed over to satan''. But fortunately Paul was clear in 1 Cor 5:11 that a person continuing in mortal sin is a 'brother so called'.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister.

The ones on the Paradise side, no.. the ones on the hades side.. yes.

Agreed.

The whole place is called Hades / Sheol though? There is a hellish side and a paradise. Separated by a great barrier.

and the biggest mistake here, is thinking that giving someone a chance is a mistake.

Disagree. The biggest mistake is allowing into heaven someone who is beyond saving. Or placing in hell someone who would truly repent.

That would be like a school principal taking paedophiles out of rehabilitation and appointing them as kindergarten teachers.

All are given a chance. God wills that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4). There is no dispute there. What is being overlooked, is Jeremiah 17:9–11: only God can truly judge the heart and the mind. God is not a human who would ever make the mistake of allowing a person with a heart hardened by a love of sin, into heaven.

----------------------------

It is important to grasp why scripture mentions a hardened heart on numerous occasions. It is God's justification for sending the wicked to an eternal punishment.

The condition of the heart is everything.

Anyone who is willing to lay down their life for you, or even for others, should always be welcome in your home. Christianity is that simple (Matthew 16:24)

 

[MedicBravo]

The thief had the Creator Himself approve of his faith so He can "bypass" baptism.
Baptism is not a hard, mandatory, essential requirement.

The problem here is many do not understand or have the right mindset.
a. They're scared. Following Jesus isn't easy.
b. They didn't truly accept Him. You can tell by their life, actions, and words.

In any group in the Bible where many are baptized, don't think everyone there was changed. Many were. Many were not.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The Problem with the Thief on the Cross

Few figures in Scripture get used more often to justify doctrine than the thief on the cross. And few figures are more misunderstood.

You've heard the arguments. The thief wasn't baptized - so baptism isn't necessary. The thief didn't do any good works - so works don't matter. The thief just believed - so belief is all you need.

But there's a problem with building doctrine on the thief. A big one.

What if the thief wasn't the first example of New Covenant salvation - but the last example of Old Covenant salvation?

Paradise, Not Heaven

Let's start with what Jesus actually said.

"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

Paradise. Not Heaven. That distinction matters.

In Luke 16, Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man. When Lazarus died, he went to Abraham's Bosom - a place of comfort, separated by a great gulf from Hades where the rich man suffered. This was Paradise. The holding place for the righteous dead under the Old Covenant.

Abraham was there. Lazarus was there. All the Old Testament saints were there. Waiting.

Waiting for what?

Waiting for Jesus to finish His work.

The Covenant Wasn't in Force Yet

Here's a legal reality most people overlook.

"For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives" (Hebrews 9:16-17).

A will doesn't take effect until the person who wrote it dies.

When Jesus made His promise to the thief, Jesus was still alive. The New Covenant - the new testament in His blood - wasn't in force yet. It couldn't be. The testator hadn't died.

The thief died under the same covenant that covered Abraham, Moses, and David. Faith looking forward to the promise. Old Covenant terms.

He wasn't the first convert of the New Covenant. He was the last convert of the Old.

Jesus Hadn't Ascended Yet

After the resurrection, Mary Magdalene found Jesus at the tomb. She reached out to Him, and He said something strange.

"Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17).

Jesus had work to do. He hadn't gone to the Father yet.

The book of Hebrews tells us that the earthly tabernacle was "a copy and shadow of the heavenly things" (Hebrews 8:5). There is a tabernacle in Heaven. A real one. Complete with the ark of the covenant and a mercy seat.

On the Day of Atonement, the high priest would take the blood of the sacrifice and sprinkle it on the mercy seat. That blood covered the sins of the people for another year.

Jesus, our High Priest, had to do the same thing - but once for all. He had to take His own blood into the heavenly tabernacle and sprinkle it on the heavenly mercy seat.

"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12).

When the thief died, Jesus hadn't done that yet. The blood hadn't been applied. The atonement wasn't complete.

The Spirit Wasn't Given Yet

Under the Old Covenant, the Holy Spirit worked differently than He does now.

The Spirit came upon people - temporarily, for specific tasks. He came upon Samson to give him strength. He came upon Saul to prophesy. He came upon David to reign. But He also left. Saul lost the Spirit. David, after his sin with Bathsheba, prayed "Do not take Your Holy Spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11). He knew the Spirit could depart.

The New Covenant promised something different. An indwelling Spirit. A permanent presence.

But that hadn't happened yet.

"But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:39).

Not yet given. Jesus wasn't glorified yet.

Jesus told His disciples, "It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you" (John 16:7).

The Spirit couldn't come in the New Covenant way until Jesus left. That happened at Pentecost - Acts 2. Peter preached, and three thousand were baptized, and they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The thief died before any of this. Before the resurrection. Before the ascension. Before the Spirit was poured out. Before Acts 2. Before "repent and be baptized." He couldn't have received the indwelling Spirit even if he wanted to. It wasn't available yet.

Leading Captives Free

So what happened to all those Old Testament saints waiting in Paradise?

"When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Now this, 'He ascended' - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?" (Ephesians 4:8-9).

Jesus descended. To the lower parts. To Paradise. And He led the captives free.

Abraham, Moses, David, Lazarus, and yes - the thief on the cross. All of them waiting. All of them transferred when the work was complete.

The thief went to Paradise that day, just as Jesus promised. But Paradise wasn't the final destination. It was the waiting room. And when Jesus finished His work, He came back for them.

The Evidence Stacked Up

Let's count the reasons the thief was under the Old Covenant:

One - Jesus said Paradise, not Heaven. The Old Testament saints' waiting place.

Two - Jesus hadn't died yet. The New Covenant wasn't in force.

Three - Jesus hadn't ascended yet. The blood hadn't been applied to the heavenly mercy seat.

Four - The Spirit hadn't been given yet. The New Covenant indwelling wasn't available.

Five - Acts 2 hadn't happened yet. "Repent and be baptized" hadn't been preached.

Six - Jesus led the captives free after His work was done. The thief was among them.

How many reasons do we need? The thief was Old Covenant by every measure.

Selective Proof-Texting

Here's something interesting. People love to use the thief to dismiss New Covenant commands.

The thief wasn't baptized - so I don't need to be baptized.

The thief didn't do good works - so I don't need to do good works.

The thief just believed - so belief is all I need.

But you know what else the thief wasn't?

Circumcised.

Funny how that never comes up. Under the Old Covenant, circumcision was required. But nobody says, "The thief wasn't circumcised, so circumcision must not matter."

Why not? Because we know circumcision was an Old Covenant requirement that doesn't apply to us.

Exactly. So why are we using an Old Covenant convert to dismiss New Covenant requirements?

Even If You Disagree

But let's say you're not convinced. Let's say you still think the thief was saved under New Covenant terms.

Fine. Let's grant everything you want to claim.

The thief confessed with his mouth. He believed in his heart. He recognized his sin and accepted his punishment. He probably didn't commit any more sins in the few hours he had left. And he couldn't get baptized - he was nailed to a cross with Roman soldiers guarding him.

Maybe grace covered what he couldn't do. Jesus knows hearts. The thief gets a pass on the things that were physically impossible for him.

I'll give you that.

Now answer me this: What's your excuse?

You've been saved for ten, twenty, thirty years. You're not nailed to a cross. You're not dying in the next few hours. You have legs that work. There's a baptistry at your church. There's water in the river.

The thief couldn't. You can.

The thief had hours. You've had decades.

The thief had no opportunity. You've had hundreds.

And if you're wheelchair-bound? I've seen people in wheelchairs get baptized. I've seen elderly people lowered into the water. I've seen baptisms in bathtubs, horse troughs, swimming pools, lakes, rivers, oceans. I've seen people baptized in hospitals.

If you want to obey, you find a way.

The thief had zero options. Zero.

You have options. You just don't like them.

Grace covers "can't." It doesn't cover "won't."

The Real Question

So here's the real question.

Why are we building doctrine on the one dying man who couldn't do anything - instead of the dozens of examples in Acts where people could do something and did?

Pentecost - three thousand repented and were baptized.

The Ethiopian eunuch - "Here is water, what hinders me?" He was baptized immediately.

Paul - "Arise and be baptized, washing away your sins."

Cornelius - baptized immediately after receiving the Spirit.

The Philippian jailer - baptized the same hour of the night.

Lydia - baptized with her household.

Person after person after person. The pattern is clear. Believe and be baptized. Immediately. Without delay.

But we ignore all of that and cling to the one guy who couldn't do it.

Why?

Because the exception lets us off the hook. The exception doesn't require anything of us. The exception lets us say "it's not really necessary."

We go with the one example instead of the dozens.

Bad foundation.

Conclusion

The thief on the cross is a beautiful picture of grace. A man at the end of his rope, with nothing to offer, placing his faith in Jesus and receiving the promise of Paradise.

But he's not your model.

He was the last Old Covenant convert, saved the same way Abraham was saved - by faith looking forward to the promise. He went where the Old Testament saints went. He was led captive when Jesus finished His work.

You live after Acts 2. You live after "repent and be baptized." You live after the Spirit was poured out. You have opportunities the thief never had.

Stop hiding behind a dying man's inability to justify your unwillingness.

Be a Berean. Look at all the evidence. Follow the pattern of Acts, not the exception on the cross.

And if you can obey - then obey.

the examples cited to us in the NT were always for believers water Baptism

 

[YeshuaFan]

The thief had the Creator Himself approve of his faith so He can "bypass" baptism.
Baptism is not a hard, mandatory, essential requirement.

The problem here is many do not understand or have the right mindset.
a. They're scared. Following Jesus isn't easy.
b. They didn't truly accept Him. You can tell by their life, actions, and words.

In any group in the Bible where many are baptized, don't think everyone there was changed. Many were. Many were not.

The ONLY baptism that counts is spiritual Baptism when the holy Spirit Himself places us in Christ and the Body of Christ when we first believed

 

[B-A-C]

Chapter [X]
Heaven or Hell Forever?

Ask any Christian where they'll spend eternity and you'll get a simple answer: Heaven.

Ask where unbelievers go and you'll get an equally simple answer: Hell.

Heaven or Hell. Forever. Two destinations. Pick one.

It's clean. It's simple. It's taught in Sunday School with flannel graphs.

And it's wrong.

Not completely wrong - but wrong enough that we've missed most of what Scripture actually promises.

THE ASSUMPTION

When you die, you go to either Heaven or Hell, and that's where you'll be forever.

Believers: Heaven. Unbelievers: Hell. End of story.

We sing about it. "When we all get to Heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be." We comfort grieving families: "He's in Heaven now, looking down on us." We warn the lost: "You're going to Hell if you don't get saved."

It's so embedded in Christian culture that questioning it feels almost heretical.

But here's the problem: Scripture describes something far more complex - and far more glorious - than the simple binary we've created.

THE HELL PROBLEM

Let's start with Hell, because the timeline problem is clearest there.

Revelation 20:13-14 says this: "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Read that again.

Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

If Hell (Hades) gets thrown into the Lake of Fire, then Hell isn't the final destination. It's a temporary holding place. A jail cell before sentencing.

The Lake of Fire is the final destination. The "second death." Permanent separation from God.

Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.

Jesus makes this distinction too. In Matthew 25:41, He says the wicked will "depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for the devil and his angels. Not Hell - the Lake of Fire. That's where they end up. That's the eternal destination.

So no, unbelievers don't go to Hell forever. They go to Hades temporarily, then to the Lake of Fire permanently.

Semantics? Maybe. But it's what Scripture actually says.

THE HEAVEN PROBLEM

Now let's look at the believers' side. Heaven forever, right?

Not according to Scripture.

Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). When believers die now, yes, we go to be with Jesus. Most people call that Heaven. Fine.

But that's not the final destination either.

Here's the timeline Scripture gives us:

First, the resurrection. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

We get resurrection bodies. Physical bodies. Not disembodied spirits floating on clouds - actual bodies.

Then what?

The Millennial Kingdom. Revelation 20:4-6 describes believers reigning with Christ for a thousand years. On earth. Not in Heaven - on earth.

Then comes the final rebellion, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the destruction of Death and Hades.

And then this: "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:1-2).

A new heaven and a new earth.

The New Jerusalem coming down.

And here's the key verse: "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God" (Revelation 21:3).

The tabernacle of God is with men.

Not men going up to Heaven to be with God. God coming down to dwell with men.

That's the eternal destination. Not Heaven up there. The New Jerusalem on the New Earth, with God present.

We don't inherit the entire planet as our dwelling place. We inherit the city - the New Jerusalem. That's where God's throne is. That's where we live. The rest of the New Earth exists around it, and presumably we can go out and explore it, but our home - our dwelling place - is the city itself.

JESUS WON'T BE IN HEAVEN EITHER

Here's something most people never consider.

If the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven to the New Earth, and God's throne is in the New Jerusalem, and we will dwell with Him in that city... then Heaven as we think of it - that place "up there" where God is - won't be the eternal dwelling place of anyone.

Not us. Not Jesus. Not God the Father.

The throne comes down. Revelation 22:1-3 describes the river of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of the New Jerusalem, with the tree of life on either side.

The throne is in the city. The city is on the New Earth. We live there with God.

So when we sing "I'll Fly Away" and "I've Got a Mansion Just Over the Hilltop," we're not describing what Scripture promises.

We're not flying away to Heaven forever.

We're getting resurrected bodies to live on a renewed Earth with God physically present.

That's not less than Heaven. That's better.

NO MORE DEATH

Here's another piece most people miss.

Revelation 21:4 says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

No more death.

Not "we won't die anymore." Death itself - the enemy - is destroyed.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:26, "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

Death gets thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Hades (Revelation 20:14). It's eliminated. Gone. The former things have passed away.

If death is destroyed, then the New Earth isn't just another chapter in salvation history where people still die and face judgment. It's the final chapter. The eternal state. No more testing. No more falling. No more death.

SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US?

Let's map the actual timeline Scripture gives:

For Believers:
1. Die now → Present with the Lord (Heaven, if you want to call it that)
2. Resurrection → Receive glorified bodies
3. Millennial Kingdom → Reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years
4. New Heaven and New Earth → The New Jerusalem descends, we dwell with God in the city forever

For Unbelievers:
1. Die now → Hades (the temporary holding place)
2. Great White Throne Judgment → Judged according to their works
3. Lake of Fire → The second death, permanent separation from God

Heaven and Hell? Yes, as intermediate states.

Forever? No.

The final destinations are the New Earth for believers and the Lake of Fire for unbelievers.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?

You might be thinking, "Okay, but isn't this just semantics? Does it really matter?"

Yes. It matters.

First, because truth matters. We should say what Scripture says, not what we wish it said or what we've always heard.

Second, because what Scripture promises is better than what we've been taught.

We're not getting a disembodied existence on clouds playing harps. We're getting resurrection bodies - physical, glorified, imperishable - to live on a physical earth that's been renewed and perfected, with God physically present among us.

We're getting Eden back. The way it was supposed to be. Humanity and God dwelling together. The curse removed. Creation restored.

That's the promise. Not escape from creation - redemption of creation.

Third, because misunderstanding the destination affects how we live now.

If we think we're just passing through this physical world on our way to a spiritual Heaven, then the physical world doesn't matter much. Trash it. Use it up. We're leaving anyway.

But if God is redeeming and renewing creation, if the earth itself has a future, if our resurrection bodies are designed for a physical existence on a physical New Earth, then how we steward creation now matters.

And fourth, because getting Hell wrong undermines the seriousness of judgment.

If people think "Hell" is the final destination and they read verses about people being in "Hell" now (like the rich man in Luke 16), they might think the final judgment has already happened. It hasn't. Hades is the jail cell. The Lake of Fire is the sentence. And nobody's in the Lake of Fire yet.

The judgment is still coming.

THE FLANNEL GRAPH VERSION VS. SCRIPTURE

Here's what we've been taught:
- You die
- You go to Heaven or Hell
- You stay there forever
- The end

Here's what Scripture actually says:
- You die
- Believers go to be with Jesus; unbelievers go to Hades
- Jesus returns; believers are resurrected
- Believers reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth
- Satan's final rebellion is crushed
- Great White Throne Judgment
- Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire
- New Heaven and New Earth appear
- New Jerusalem descends from Heaven to the New Earth
- God dwells with humanity on the New Earth forever

That's a lot more complicated than the flannel graph version.

But it's also a lot more glorious.

THE BEREAN TEST

So here's the challenge: Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

Read Revelation 20-22. All the way through. Pay attention to the sequence of events.

When does the New Heaven and New Earth appear? (After the Great White Throne Judgment)

Where does the New Jerusalem come from? (Down out of Heaven)

Where does it go? (To the New Earth)

Where is God's throne? (In the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth)

What happens to Death and Hades? (Thrown into the Lake of Fire)

Then ask yourself: Does that match "I'll fly away to Heaven forever"?

Or does it match something different - something better?

God dwelling with humanity on a renewed earth. Physical resurrection bodies. No more death. No more curse. Creation restored. Eden redeemed.

That's what Scripture promises.

Not Heaven up there. The New Jerusalem - our eternal city - on the New Earth. With God.

The city is our home. The New Earth surrounds it. And we get to live in both - citizens of the city with access to the renewed creation.

Forever.

CONCLUSION

So can we still say "Heaven" as shorthand for "where believers go when they die"? Sure. Language is flexible.

But let's not confuse the intermediate state with the final destination.

And let's not rob ourselves of the full glory of what God has promised by reducing it to clouds and harps and floating around forever.

We're getting something better.

We're getting resurrection.

We're getting a home in the New Jerusalem.

We're getting God Himself dwelling with us in the city.

That's worth getting right.

 

[MedicBravo]

The New Heaven and New Earth are the final destination for Christians.
Hades is the "Waiting Room" for damned people with the "Lake of Fire" being their final destination.
I agree. Too many are taught that Hades = Hell and other garbage.

 

[KingJ]

Too many are taught that Hades = Hell

Hades is hell. So too is the lake of fire. It is incorrect to say otherwise. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand the definition of the word 'hell'.

Hell = a place in a spiritual realm that consists of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

Luke 16:19-31 clearly depicts fire and suffering in Hades. Therefore Hades is a hell / is hell.

 

[MedicBravo]

You seem so sure of yourself.
Sheol - Grave, realm of the dead. NO indication of punishment.
Key linguistic facts:

• In early Hebrew thought, Sheol didn’t clearly separate good vs bad after death.

Hebrew to Greek: Sheol - Hades "the unseen place, underworld, and realm of the dead".
Again, NO indication of punishment.
Gehenna: Physical place. The worst place on the planet at the time and the closest thing people could understand.
Early English: hidden place / concealed place / underworld
SOME (not all nor a majority) used Hell for all 4:
Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus
Hebrew:
Sheol = realm of dead

Greek:
Hades = realm of dead
Gehenna = judgment imagery
Tartarus = deep prison abyss
**Linguistically, it wasn’t originally that simple.**
For the 3rd time, NO suggestion of punishment.

It makes no sense to send anyone to Hell to suffer punishment only to "get a break before the Final Judgment" just to be sent back.

 

[KingJ]

You seem so sure of yourself.
Sheol - Grave, realm of the dead. NO indication of punishment.
Key linguistic facts:

• In early Hebrew thought, Sheol didn’t clearly separate good vs bad after death.

Hebrew to Greek: Sheol - Hades "the unseen place, underworld, and realm of the dead".
Again, NO indication of punishment.
Gehenna: Physical place. The worst place on the planet at the time and the closest thing people could understand.
Early English: hidden place / concealed place / underworld
SOME (not all nor a majority) used Hell for all 4:
Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus
Hebrew:
Sheol = realm of dead

Greek:
Hades = realm of dead
Gehenna = judgment imagery
Tartarus = deep prison abyss
**Linguistically, it wasn’t originally that simple.**
For the 3rd time, NO suggestion of punishment.

It makes no sense to send anyone to Hell to suffer punishment only to "get a break before the Final Judgment" just to be sent back.

I would prefer to have your belief. It makes more sense that punishment only start with the Lake of fire / after judgement day'. But alas we have this passage to consider:

Luke 16:23-24 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24;So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

 

[KingJ]

Chapter [X]
Heaven or Hell Forever?

Ask any Christian where they'll spend eternity and you'll get a simple answer: Heaven.

Ask where unbelievers go and you'll get an equally simple answer: Hell.

Heaven or Hell. Forever. Two destinations. Pick one.

It's clean. It's simple. It's taught in Sunday School with flannel graphs.

And it's wrong.

Not completely wrong - but wrong enough that we've missed most of what Scripture actually promises.

THE ASSUMPTION

When you die, you go to either Heaven or Hell, and that's where you'll be forever.

Believers: Heaven. Unbelievers: Hell. End of story.

We sing about it. "When we all get to Heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be." We comfort grieving families: "He's in Heaven now, looking down on us." We warn the lost: "You're going to Hell if you don't get saved."

It's so embedded in Christian culture that questioning it feels almost heretical.

But here's the problem: Scripture describes something far more complex - and far more glorious - than the simple binary we've created.

THE HELL PROBLEM

Let's start with Hell, because the timeline problem is clearest there.

Revelation 20:13-14 says this: "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Read that again.

Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

If Hell (Hades) gets thrown into the Lake of Fire, then Hell isn't the final destination. It's a temporary holding place. A jail cell before sentencing.

The Lake of Fire is the final destination. The "second death." Permanent separation from God.

Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.

Jesus makes this distinction too. In Matthew 25:41, He says the wicked will "depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Prepared for the devil and his angels. Not Hell - the Lake of Fire. That's where they end up. That's the eternal destination.

So no, unbelievers don't go to Hell forever. They go to Hades temporarily, then to the Lake of Fire permanently.

Semantics? Maybe. But it's what Scripture actually says.

THE HEAVEN PROBLEM

Now let's look at the believers' side. Heaven forever, right?

Not according to Scripture.

Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). When believers die now, yes, we go to be with Jesus. Most people call that Heaven. Fine.

But that's not the final destination either.

Here's the timeline Scripture gives us:

First, the resurrection. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

We get resurrection bodies. Physical bodies. Not disembodied spirits floating on clouds - actual bodies.

Then what?

The Millennial Kingdom. Revelation 20:4-6 describes believers reigning with Christ for a thousand years. On earth. Not in Heaven - on earth.

Then comes the final rebellion, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the destruction of Death and Hades.

And then this: "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:1-2).

A new heaven and a new earth.

The New Jerusalem coming down.

And here's the key verse: "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God" (Revelation 21:3).

The tabernacle of God is with men.

Not men going up to Heaven to be with God. God coming down to dwell with men.

That's the eternal destination. Not Heaven up there. The New Jerusalem on the New Earth, with God present.

We don't inherit the entire planet as our dwelling place. We inherit the city - the New Jerusalem. That's where God's throne is. That's where we live. The rest of the New Earth exists around it, and presumably we can go out and explore it, but our home - our dwelling place - is the city itself.

JESUS WON'T BE IN HEAVEN EITHER

Here's something most people never consider.

If the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven to the New Earth, and God's throne is in the New Jerusalem, and we will dwell with Him in that city... then Heaven as we think of it - that place "up there" where God is - won't be the eternal dwelling place of anyone.

Not us. Not Jesus. Not God the Father.

The throne comes down. Revelation 22:1-3 describes the river of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of the New Jerusalem, with the tree of life on either side.

The throne is in the city. The city is on the New Earth. We live there with God.

So when we sing "I'll Fly Away" and "I've Got a Mansion Just Over the Hilltop," we're not describing what Scripture promises.

We're not flying away to Heaven forever.

We're getting resurrected bodies to live on a renewed Earth with God physically present.

That's not less than Heaven. That's better.

NO MORE DEATH

Here's another piece most people miss.

Revelation 21:4 says, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

No more death.

Not "we won't die anymore." Death itself - the enemy - is destroyed.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:26, "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

Death gets thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Hades (Revelation 20:14). It's eliminated. Gone. The former things have passed away.

If death is destroyed, then the New Earth isn't just another chapter in salvation history where people still die and face judgment. It's the final chapter. The eternal state. No more testing. No more falling. No more death.

SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US?

Let's map the actual timeline Scripture gives:

For Believers:
1. Die now → Present with the Lord (Heaven, if you want to call it that)
2. Resurrection → Receive glorified bodies
3. Millennial Kingdom → Reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years
4. New Heaven and New Earth → The New Jerusalem descends, we dwell with God in the city forever

For Unbelievers:
1. Die now → Hades (the temporary holding place)
2. Great White Throne Judgment → Judged according to their works
3. Lake of Fire → The second death, permanent separation from God

Heaven and Hell? Yes, as intermediate states.

Forever? No.

The final destinations are the New Earth for believers and the Lake of Fire for unbelievers.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?

You might be thinking, "Okay, but isn't this just semantics? Does it really matter?"

Yes. It matters.

First, because truth matters. We should say what Scripture says, not what we wish it said or what we've always heard.

Second, because what Scripture promises is better than what we've been taught.

We're not getting a disembodied existence on clouds playing harps. We're getting resurrection bodies - physical, glorified, imperishable - to live on a physical earth that's been renewed and perfected, with God physically present among us.

We're getting Eden back. The way it was supposed to be. Humanity and God dwelling together. The curse removed. Creation restored.

That's the promise. Not escape from creation - redemption of creation.

Third, because misunderstanding the destination affects how we live now.

If we think we're just passing through this physical world on our way to a spiritual Heaven, then the physical world doesn't matter much. Trash it. Use it up. We're leaving anyway.

But if God is redeeming and renewing creation, if the earth itself has a future, if our resurrection bodies are designed for a physical existence on a physical New Earth, then how we steward creation now matters.

And fourth, because getting Hell wrong undermines the seriousness of judgment.

If people think "Hell" is the final destination and they read verses about people being in "Hell" now (like the rich man in Luke 16), they might think the final judgment has already happened. It hasn't. Hades is the jail cell. The Lake of Fire is the sentence. And nobody's in the Lake of Fire yet.

The judgment is still coming.

THE FLANNEL GRAPH VERSION VS. SCRIPTURE

Here's what we've been taught:
- You die
- You go to Heaven or Hell
- You stay there forever
- The end

Here's what Scripture actually says:
- You die
- Believers go to be with Jesus; unbelievers go to Hades
- Jesus returns; believers are resurrected
- Believers reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth
- Satan's final rebellion is crushed
- Great White Throne Judgment
- Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire
- New Heaven and New Earth appear
- New Jerusalem descends from Heaven to the New Earth
- God dwells with humanity on the New Earth forever

That's a lot more complicated than the flannel graph version.

But it's also a lot more glorious.

THE BEREAN TEST

So here's the challenge: Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

Read Revelation 20-22. All the way through. Pay attention to the sequence of events.

When does the New Heaven and New Earth appear? (After the Great White Throne Judgment)

Where does the New Jerusalem come from? (Down out of Heaven)

Where does it go? (To the New Earth)

Where is God's throne? (In the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth)

What happens to Death and Hades? (Thrown into the Lake of Fire)

Then ask yourself: Does that match "I'll fly away to Heaven forever"?

Or does it match something different - something better?

God dwelling with humanity on a renewed earth. Physical resurrection bodies. No more death. No more curse. Creation restored. Eden redeemed.

That's what Scripture promises.

Not Heaven up there. The New Jerusalem - our eternal city - on the New Earth. With God.

The city is our home. The New Earth surrounds it. And we get to live in both - citizens of the city with access to the renewed creation.

Forever.

CONCLUSION

So can we still say "Heaven" as shorthand for "where believers go when they die"? Sure. Language is flexible.

But let's not confuse the intermediate state with the final destination.

And let's not rob ourselves of the full glory of what God has promised by reducing it to clouds and harps and floating around forever.

We're getting something better.

We're getting resurrection.

We're getting a home in the New Jerusalem.

We're getting God Himself dwelling with us in the city.

That's worth getting right.

You need to be careful BAC. There is teaching going around that wants to over emphasize the fact that we will be on earth and not in heaven. It is from the devil and has the goal of making us feel less special to God.

I am not accusing you of teaching this but you are certainly touching on it.

When we die, we go straight to heaven. Nowhere else. Heaven is the name given to God's home. Jesus is crystal clear that that is where we go. Even in the millennium we will reign and be with God. Making earth a new heaven.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

------------------------

As for hell. Just to add to what I said to Medic in my post above. It is not incorrect to call both Hades and the lake of fire hell. You enter fire in Hades and will again enter fire in the lake of fire. Fire, evil place = Hell. Per the definition of hell already provided.

To make a meal of the word hell makes many feel unsure of what they have been taught. You are creating doubt in peoples minds about what they have been taught on both heaven and hell. I don't think that is wise.

If you really want to add value to the topic of hell, better explain what scripture says about it. Explain how a good God Psalm 136:1, one who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 is able to create a place that seems extremely evil and terrifying. IE Defend God instead of attacking Him.

He wont take you to heaven = you are not that special to Him = attack on God.
He will torture you for eternity = evil God = attack on God

 

[B-A-C]

You need to be careful BAC. There is teaching going around that wants to over emphasize the fact that we will be on earth and not in heaven. It is from the devil and has the goal of making us feel less special to God.

Lets just go with the Bible here, shall we. What does the Bible say about hell vs the Lake of fire?

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hades/Hell is NOT the lake of fire, you can't throw hell into hell. Hades is temporary, the Lake of fire is forever.

Now lets us see what the Bible says about where Jesus (and the Father will dwell afater the millennial reign,
and the New heaven and new earth come.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

There is a new heaven, and a new earth, the "first" heaven and "first" earth have passed away.
Then the New Jerusalem comes down "out" of heaven. It isn't heaven, it comes down out of heaven.
This where the tabernacle of God will be.. NOT in heaven, it will come down to the earth.
Will it sit of the surface of the earth, or float above the earth, I don't know, but either way, it's not in heaven.

Men won't be in heaven with God, God will be (on/near) Earth with men. Just like the original plan in the Garden of Eden.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Again it says "out of heaven", not "in" heaven.

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

This is where the Lamb and God will be, not in heaven

Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

The throne of God and the Lamb are in the New Jerusalem, not heaven. We will see "His face", not in heaven, but in the New Jerusalem.

Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

This is where we will reign with God... "forever nd ever". Not heaven.

Can we go to heaven? I dont know. Can we visit there for a while? maybe? I don't know, but is that the final destination?
Not according to the Bible.

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

In the beginning, God came to earth, man wasn't created in heaven.
God came here, to be with us.

Now I don't believe Christianity is about "making us feel special", But Even if it was...
I have to say I would feel more honored that God came to visit me, than forcing me to go visit Him.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Rockerduck]

Only the Apostles could set church doctrine, mainly Paul. James and Jude are not apostles, neither by extension. James "works" is not doctrine. Paul said "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work. Romans 11:6. This is an Apostle in direct opposition to James. Paul sets doctrine, not James.

 

[B-A-C]

James "works" is not doctrine.

Well, of course James was an apostle, or he wouldn't have been able to write a book of the New testament. (there is one exception).

But even if we discount James, what about Jesus? Does he qualify?

 

[Rockerduck]

Well, of course James was an apostle, or he wouldn't have been able to write a book of the New testament. (there is one exception).

But even if we discount James, what about Jesus? Does he qualify?

In Jesus's earthly ministry His half-brothers did not believe in Him. His Apostles, given the ability to heal, and cast out demons, did believe in Him and only the Apostles shared the Passover with Jesus in the upper room. James and Jude were not there and not Apostles. James was the pastor of the Jerusalem church, nothing more.

 

[KingJ]

Lets just go with the Bible here, shall we. What does the Bible say about hell vs the Lake of fire?

Hell is an English theological term, not a Greek word. Hell is never mentioned in Greek. The lake of fire is.

English translations used ‘hell’ as an umbrella for final punishment. Arguing otherwise is just word-games.

 

[B-A-C]

The Greek terms in the NT:

1. Gehenna(γέεννα) - 12 times
   • Jesus uses it (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5)
   • James uses it once (James 3:6)
   • Always refers to final judgment/punishment
2. Hades(ᾅδης) - 10 times
   • The realm of the dead (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18, 6:8, 20:13-14)
   • Revelation 20:14 explicitly says Hades itself gets thrown into the Lake of Fire
3. Tartarus(ταρταρόω) - 1 time
   • 2 Peter 2:4, specifically about fallen angels
4. Lake of Fire(λίμνη τοῦ πυρός) - 5 times
   • All in Revelation (19:20, 20:10, 14-15, 21:8)
   • Explicitly called "the second death"

English translations used "hell" as an umbrella term for these concepts of judgment/punishment. When someone reads "hell" in most English Bibles, the underlying Greek is usually Gehenna or sometimes Hades—but the translators weren't trying to deceive anyone. They were using the common English theological term for eternal punishment.

The "Lake of Fire" is the most explicit NT term for final, eternal punishment, and it appears only in Revelation's apocalyptic visions.

 

[Twistie]

The thief had the Creator Himself approve of his faith so He can "bypass" baptism.
Baptism is not a hard, mandatory, essential requirement.

The problem here is many do not understand or have the right mindset.
a. They're scared. Following Jesus isn't easy.
b. They didn't truly accept Him. You can tell by their life, actions, and words.

In any group in the Bible where many are baptized, don't think everyone there was changed. Many were. Many were not.

How can one claim to be a follower yet speak against what who He follows did the absurdly is crazy..

I'm j.s.

Lol the thief didn't get baptized why I gotta I mean I just wanna boast that I follow..that's how y'all sound when y'all do that that craziness..

I presume that's what the Lord speaks about when He tells us about those whose lips worship Him but their hearts are far from Him ey?

Anywho hope all's well!!

ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

 

[MedicBravo]

You need to be careful BAC. There is teaching going around that wants to over emphasize the fact that we will be on earth and not in heaven. It is from the devil and has the goal of making us feel less special to God.

I am not accusing you of teaching this but you are certainly touching on it.

When we die, we go straight to heaven. Nowhere else. Heaven is the name given to God's home. Jesus is crystal clear that that is where we go. Even in the millennium we will reign and be with God. Making earth a new heaven.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

------------------------

As for hell. Just to add to what I said to Medic in my post above. It is not incorrect to call both Hades and the lake of fire hell. You enter fire in Hades and will again enter fire in the lake of fire. Fire, evil place = Hell. Per the definition of hell already provided.

To make a meal of the word hell makes many feel unsure of what they have been taught. You are creating doubt in peoples minds about what they have been taught on both heaven and hell. I don't think that is wise.

If you really want to add value to the topic of hell, better explain what scripture says about it. Explain how a good God Psalm 136:1, one who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 is able to create a place that seems extremely evil and terrifying. IE Defend God instead of attacking Him.

He wont take you to heaven = you are not that special to Him = attack on God.
He will torture you for eternity = evil God = attack on God

That's my point.
Knowing full well that God and everything in the Bible happened and is real and is far worse than any human conceived "pain".
A good parent punished his/her child for wrong-doing regardless of what it is.
A bad parent let's them "do whatever when they turn 18"; though they are free to do that.
With us, any punishment a person gets is just and perfect.

The "realm of the dead" is TINY and minuscule compared to the LoF.