Grace is a free gift, but faith and works is still needed for Salvation

[Bill]

Bill, non-OSAS misrepresents God as it incriminates Him as unjust and partial. Not as badly as Calvinism, but still to a large enough degree to make it heretical.

Catholics believe in a purgatory. Because of that non-OSAS does not incriminate God. Non-OSAS only works if you also belief in Purgatory.

God is just Job 34:12 and God is impartial Rom 2:11. These are facts that any theology we push needs to align with.

There are just too many 'Christians' that do not care how they represent God.

See my accusations of this belief in post # 5 here:

Post in thread 'Paul taught OSAS'

Oct 3, 2025

Judas Iscariot


Luk 9:1-2
(1) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
(2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Jesus never gave power and authority over devils to unbelievers, for you will not find that in the word of God, and Judas Iscariot was among these 12 who were used of God and given power over devils.

But at some point the devil entered into him:

Joh 13:26-27
(26) Jesus answered, He it is, to...

• Gerbolski

• 

I know that there are many people that have their beef with Catholic especially on the part of purgatory. But I view purgatory as actually a part of Heaven, a place of preparation. Because you cannot have sin within you when going to heaven where there is no sin.

I do understand everyone's Concepts when it comes to the Forgiveness of Jesus from the cross.

For myself what I see based on the writings of Paul and everything else in Scripture it leads me to understand that the death of Jesus on the cross wipes the Slate for everyone when they accept Jesus as Lord. At that moment you're at 100% perfect before God.

But as we are human we fall we do stupid stupid stuff all the time. You know you look at a billboard the wrong way bam a stupid sin because maybe it's some stupid lust for half a second but it's still a sin. Or maybe you swear because some idiot cut you off driving their car. Or maybe it's a different kind of sin like you see a situation developing and all you have to do is get out and help that person and stop them from doing something stupid themselves. But instead of doing that instead of getting involved you decide not to. In a manner you have become an accessory to the sin that you knew was going to be committed by that person. Even though you yourself didn't commit the sin, the holy spirit is the one that got you to realize that this guy is about to sin. But because you denied the movement of the spirit in you now you've become a accessory to the sin that that other person committed.

There are all sorts of craziness in the world. And being human guess what we're knee deep in it. But you have to repent. Lord I'm sorry I swore because this guy cut me off I'm sorry Lord please forgive me and be sincere about it. And guess what you're forgiven

But let us say that you've been doing all these things and you've never repented and now you die. You're still a child of God, you're still part of the family not God's not going to toss you into the fire because of all these stupid little sins but yet you're not perfect still to go to heaven you still have sins on your soul that need to be corrected. And this is how I see Purgatory as actually being a part of Heaven cleansing us from what needs to be removed so that we can enjoy heaven with God

 

[Bill]

I wanted to add to my above statement about Judas how his name was written in heaven and then he lost it.

( Matthew 10:1-5 --- He summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits with power to cast them out and to cure all kinds of disease and sickness. These are the names of the 12 apostles, first, Simon who is called peter, and his brother Andrew, James the son of zebedee, and his brother john, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus, Simon the zealot and Judas iscariot, the one who was to betray him. These 12 Jesus set out.)

( the Gospel of Luke 9:1 & 2 - He called the 12 together and gave them power and authority over all the doubles and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.)

( the Gospel of Luke 10:19 & 20 -- Yes, I have given you power to tread underfoot serpents and scorpions and the whole strength of the enemy. Nothing shall ever hurt you. Yet do not rejoice that the spirit submit to you, Rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven)

 

[KingJ]

I wanted to add to my above statement about Judas how his name was written in heaven and then he lost it.

( Matthew 10:1-5 --- He summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits with power to cast them out and to cure all kinds of disease and sickness. These are the names of the 12 apostles, first, Simon who is called peter, and his brother Andrew, James the son of zebedee, and his brother john, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus, Simon the zealot and Judas iscariot, the one who was to betray him. These 12 Jesus set out.)

( the Gospel of Luke 9:1 & 2 - He called the 12 together and gave them power and authority over all the doubles and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.)

( the Gospel of Luke 10:19 & 20 -- Yes, I have given you power to tread underfoot serpents and scorpions and the whole strength of the enemy. Nothing shall ever hurt you. Yet do not rejoice that the spirit submit to you, Rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven)

I believe all names are written in the book of life from birth. We know this because children go to heaven. We force God to remove them when we do not repent of our sin and post cross, accept Jesus as Lord. When Jesus said 'rejoice that your names are written in heaven', it can be translated as 'rejoice that your names have not been removed from the book of life'.

 

[KingJ]

I know that there are many people that have their beef with Catholic especially on the part of purgatory. But I view purgatory as actually a part of Heaven, a place of preparation. Because you cannot have sin within you when going to heaven where there is no sin.

I do understand everyone's Concepts when it comes to the Forgiveness of Jesus from the cross.

For myself what I see based on the writings of Paul and everything else in Scripture it leads me to understand that the death of Jesus on the cross wipes the Slate for everyone when they accept Jesus as Lord. At that moment you're at 100% perfect before God.

But as we are human we fall we do stupid stupid stuff all the time. You know you look at a billboard the wrong way bam a stupid sin because maybe it's some stupid lust for half a second but it's still a sin. Or maybe you swear because some idiot cut you off driving their car. Or maybe it's a different kind of sin like you see a situation developing and all you have to do is get out and help that person and stop them from doing something stupid themselves. But instead of doing that instead of getting involved you decide not to. In a manner you have become an accessory to the sin that you knew was going to be committed by that person. Even though you yourself didn't commit the sin, the holy spirit is the one that got you to realize that this guy is about to sin. But because you denied the movement of the spirit in you now you've become a accessory to the sin that that other person committed.

There are all sorts of craziness in the world. And being human guess what we're knee deep in it. But you have to repent. Lord I'm sorry I swore because this guy cut me off I'm sorry Lord please forgive me and be sincere about it. And guess what you're forgiven

But let us say that you've been doing all these things and you've never repented and now you die. You're still a child of God, you're still part of the family not God's not going to toss you into the fire because of all these stupid little sins but yet you're not perfect still to go to heaven you still have sins on your soul that need to be corrected. And this is how I see Purgatory as actually being a part of Heaven cleansing us from what needs to be removed so that we can enjoy heaven with God

I can agree with this. From my perspective it is as simple as this:

Scenario:

David serves God his whole life. Commits two mortal sins near the end. Criminal next to Jesus on the cross. Accepts Jesus / repents of sins only. Jesus promises him eternal bliss.

Catholic non-OSAS:

David will get a chance in purgatory to make right. Criminal may also get a chance to cement his dedication.

God is just and impartial.

Non Catholic non-OSAS

David to eternal torment in fire. 'He started well, but ended terribly'. Criminal off to eternal bliss. 'He started bad but ended good'.

God is unjust and partial. Unjust - Different set of requirements for salvation. Partial - Why not end David's life 6 hours after He decided to truly serve God as with the criminal.

OSAS after a free will decision to truly serve God:

Sad that David committed two mortal sins, but God knew his heart and that Psalm 51:17 repentance was inevitable. Both in heaven, no chance of eternal torment for either.

 

[Bill]

I can agree with this. From my perspective it is as simple as this:

Scenario:

David serves God his whole life. Commits two mortal sins near the end. Criminal next to Jesus on the cross. Accepts Jesus / repents of sins only. Jesus promises him eternal bliss.

Catholic non-OSAS:

David will get a chance in purgatory to make right. Criminal may also get a chance to cement his dedication.

God is just and impartial.

Non Catholic non-OSAS

David to eternal torment in fire. 'He started well, but ended terribly'. Criminal off to eternal bliss. 'He started bad but ended good'.

God is unjust and partial. Unjust - Different set of requirements for salvation. Partial - Why not end David's life 6 hours after He decided to truly serve God as with the criminal.

OSAS after a free will decision to truly serve God:

Sad that David committed two mortal sins, but God knew his heart and that Psalm 51:17 repentance was inevitable. Both in heaven, no chance of eternal torment for either.

To understand God and His judgments is difficult at best. But something that we need to take into consideration is this, where Jesus is talking about the hardness of peoples hearts, those that would not accept the preaching given to them. He stated that Sodom and Gomorrah would be judged less harshly than those people in those towns that did not accept the word.

 

[Bill]

I believe all names are written in the book of life from birth. We know this because children go to heaven. We force God to remove them when we do not repent of our sin and post cross, accept Jesus as Lord. When Jesus said 'rejoice that your names are written in heaven', it can be translated as 'rejoice that your names have not been removed from the book of life'.

That is a good point

 

[KingJ]

To understand God and His judgments is difficult at best. But something that we need to take into consideration is this, where Jesus is talking about the hardness of peoples hearts, those that would not accept the preaching given to them. He stated that Sodom and Gomorrah would be judged less harshly than those people in those towns that did not accept the word.

I agree. Grasping God is beyond us. Non-OSAS is only acceptable if it is from our perspective. We are not God the can truly judge a heart Jer 17:9-10. I only jump on those who teach that it is not possible with God, as this clearly misrepresents Him.

With regards to 'hardening hearts'. We know that God chooses to be good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. So free will is given to all. All scripture that speaks of hardening will always have context and a period prior where they chose to rebel to God and His word. We see this very clearly with Pharoah for example, see post # 2 here Question about a pharaoh and an Apostle's problems.

Then with 'judged less harshly', this would be a good thread topic. I do believe in differing punishments in hell.

We know that God is just Job 34:12 and will punish all according to their sin Rom 2:6. I can think of two examples of types of punishments that will differ from ''periods people will spend in Luke 16 type fire''.

1. False teachers in the tribulation are promised all the curses in revelations as a punishment Rev 22:18.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

2. All who stumble young and weak seem to have something extra terrifying waiting for them according to Matt 18:6

Matt 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[Bill]

I agree. Grasping God is beyond us. Non-OSAS is only acceptable if it is from our perspective. We are not God the can truly judge a heart Jer 17:9-10. I only jump on those who teach that it is not possible with God, as this clearly misrepresents Him.

With regards to 'hardening hearts'. We know that God chooses to be good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. So free will is given to all. All scripture that speaks of hardening will always have context and a period prior where they chose to rebel to God and His word. We see this very clearly with Pharoah for example, see post # 2 here Question about a pharaoh and an Apostle's problems.

Then with 'judged less harshly', this would be a good thread topic. I do believe in differing punishments in hell.

We know that God is just Job 34:12 and will punish all according to their sin Rom 2:6. I can think of two examples of types of punishments that will differ from ''periods people will spend in Luke 16 type fire''.

1. False teachers in the tribulation are promised all the curses in revelations as a punishment Rev 22:18.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

2. All who stumble young and weak seem to have something extra terrifying waiting for them according to Matt 18:6

Matt 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Then with 'judged less harshly', this would be a good thread topic. I do believe in differing punishments in hell.

I was just quoting what you said. I

It's funny that you say that, and I don't mean to be laughing about it it's not bad. But there are some theologians in the Catholic church that also agree with that.

I think for myself at least I feel that any absence of God would be hell. I mean honestly, there may be different or different levels of your punishment and hell but hell is still hell.

 

[KingJ]

I think for myself at least I feel that any absence of God would be hell. I mean honestly, there may be different or different levels of your punishment and hell but hell is still hell.

True. The worst thing about hell, the thing that causes all to weep and gnash their teeth, is separation from God and saints.

Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.