Paul taught OSAS

[MedicBravo]

I agree 100%. The disagreement I have with non-OSAS is not free will. I believe in OSAS and in true free will. Calvinism incriminates God as truly partial and monstrously evil.

I believe in OSAS from the moment of true repentance.



If you think about it, only Catholics are exempt from believing in non-OSAS as they believe all will have a second chance in Purgatory.



The disagreement I have with non-OSAS is clearly stated in my post # 5. Would you be able to take a stab at that?

I've read and learned that people believe just b/c God knows any and all outcomes of a person's life it means they don't have Free Will. That belief is flawed and untrue.
Ex:
Let's say you experience a day and wake up only to find out the day has started over kind of like Groundhog Day.
At first you go about your day kind of "Meh." but quickly realize and no one else has noticed anything.
You watched a sports game "yesterday" and it's happening again today.
You tell people the outcome and are largely laughed at b/c the odds for the winning team aren't good at all.
They win and you KNEW they would. Did you somehow alter reality? Did you control them? No.
God, by default, doesn't force people.

Satan tried to get on God's level and look how it turned out.
Catholics and the whole mess of paganism that is rampant in it is a whole other discussion.

Per your #5 can you repost here?

 

[KingJ]

I've read and learned that people believe just b/c God knows any and all outcomes of a person's life it means they don't have Free Will. That belief is flawed and untrue.
Ex:
Let's say you experience a day and wake up only to find out the day has started over kind of like Groundhog Day.
At first you go about your day kind of "Meh." but quickly realize and no one else has noticed anything.
You watched a sports game "yesterday" and it's happening again today.
You tell people the outcome and are largely laughed at b/c the odds for the winning team aren't good at all.
They win and you KNEW they would. Did you somehow alter reality? Did you control them? No.
God, by default, doesn't force people.

Satan tried to get on God's level and look how it turned out.
Catholics and the whole mess of paganism that is rampant in it is a whole other discussion.

Per your #5 can you repost here?

I agree, I don't believe in no free will. God can ''unconditionally elect'' per Rom 9:21, but per rest of scripture, He chooses not to. He does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being impartial pleases Him Rom 2:11, Acts 10:34.

----------------------------------

Post # 5 - Accusations against a non-OSAS doctrine where God does not know who are His. Non-OSAS is only a fine belief if it is among us. Man is not God. Man can think they are saved and not be saved. But with God, non-OSAS from His perspective implies the following:

1. He is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

2. Eternal security is a lie.

As God cannot properly vet anyone, nobody is eternally secure.

3. He is unjust.

He can gift a thief next to Jesus who repents of his sin with eternal bliss. But yet, someone who does this and more, and falls into sin in their, let's say 50'th year of service, will receive eternal fire.

4. He is partial.

He gives some a short life with few opportunities to lose their salvation, whilst others He gives a long life, and hence many more opportunities and time to lose salvation. Some are called to witness to professional, respectful people in an office environment. Others, to prostitutes where the risk of them falling into sin is much higher.

 

[KingJ]

Didn't miss it. This difference is... you think they are justified forever no matter what.
I don't... but that's the core of the whole discussion.

You are not dealing with the elephant in your statement, which I raised above / in post # 5.

Namely, if God cannot properly vet a person do you believe in eternal bliss for anyone?

 

[B-A-C]

A non-OSAS belief implies:

1. God is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

2. Eternal security is a lie.

As God cannot properly vet anyone, nobody is eternally secure.

3. God is unjust.

He can gift a thief next to Jesus who repents of his sin with eternal bliss. But yet, someone who does this and more, and falls into sin in their, let's say 50'th year of service, will receive eternal fire.

4. God is partial.

He gives some a short life with few opportunities to lose their salvation, whilst others He gives a long life, and hence many more opportunities and time to lose salvation. Some are called to witness to professional, respectful people in an office environment. Others, to prostitutes where the risk of them falling into sin is much higher.

1, Why? God giving people a chance.. isn't wasting time.

2. It absolutely is a lie. No question about it.

3. God doesn't care you started. he cares how you finish.

4. This is probably the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. You should be getting stronger and more mature the longer you are saved. Not weaker. The longer I have been a Christian... the less prone I am to sin. The Bible says it is new Christians who are most at risk.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C thanks for being the only person to take a stab at the arguments raised.

Non-OSAS from God implies:

1. He is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

1, Why? God giving people a chance.. isn't wasting time.

Respectfully, what in the universe has 'wasting peoples time' and 'giving people a chance' got to do with the statement made?

Your reply needs to be, No King J, God is dumb if He cannot vet a persons heart, because of reasons A, B and C.

Right now, you seem to believe that God would be like a school principal who allows a teacher struggling with pedophilia to be around children, simply because they haven’t yet committed an actual crime.

Before you reference Adam, Eve and satan, please understand the context and setting is heaven. IE You believe Judas would be in heaven if he died before he betrayed Jesus.

2. Eternal security is a lie.

As God cannot properly vet anyone, nobody is eternally secure.

2. It absolutely is a lie. No question about it.

The context is 'when in heaven'. IE Eternal bliss. If God cannot properly vet a person, how can He guarantee eternal bliss?

3. God is unjust.

He can gift a thief next to Jesus who repents of his sin with eternal bliss. But yet, someone who does this and more, and falls into sin in their, let's say 50'th year of service, will receive eternal fire.

3. God doesn't care you started. he cares how you finish.

How in the universe does that answer the point raised? I can see you did not think much before you typed that. The argument being raised is ''is God just'' if he gives a different set of requirements for salvation to person A over person B.

4. God is partial.

He gives some a short life with few opportunities to lose their salvation, whilst others He gives a long life, and hence many more opportunities and time to lose salvation. Some are called to witness to professional, respectful people in an office environment. Others, to prostitutes where the risk of them falling into sin is much higher.

4. This is probably the most rediculous argument I have ever heard. You should be getting stronger and more mature the longer you are saved. Not weaker. The longer I have been a Christian... the less prone I am to sin. The Bible says it is new Christians who are most at risk.

Again you are missing the point being made.

The point is that if God sends person A to a warzone ...where the likelihood of them falling is 9/10
and person B to an internet chat site... where the likelihood of them falling is 0.1/10

is it partiality? Yes or No.

 

[MedicBravo]

I agree, I don't believe in no free will. God can ''unconditionally elect'' per Rom 9:21, but per rest of scripture, He chooses not to. He does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being impartial pleases Him Rom 2:11, Acts 10:34.

----------------------------------

Post # 5 - Accusations against a non-OSAS doctrine where God does not know who are His. Non-OSAS is only a fine belief if it is among us. Man is not God. Man can think they are saved and not be saved. But with God, non-OSAS from His perspective implies the following:

1. He is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

2. Eternal security is a lie.

As God cannot properly vet anyone, nobody is eternally secure.

3. He is unjust.

He can gift a thief next to Jesus who repents of his sin with eternal bliss. But yet, someone who does this and more, and falls into sin in their, let's say 50'th year of service, will receive eternal fire.

4. He is partial.

He gives some a short life with few opportunities to lose their salvation, whilst others He gives a long life, and hence many more opportunities and time to lose salvation. Some are called to witness to professional, respectful people in an office environment. Others, to prostitutes where the risk of them falling into sin is much higher.

I'm not going to pretend or even waste time to prove God's playbook.
Jesus either died for all and His blood was sufficient or it wasn't. There is no gray area.
There are no works to add to it or regain it.

A person either didn't truly repent and never received salvation OR they did were changed and were saved.
Anyone can have a "crisis of faith" but that doesn't equate to losing it.
People who "claim" to have been Christian for X amount of time and then "Truly learned about God and the Bible" and left us didn't learn correctly.

People who truly learned in this, can't "forget". Those that may have left still have time and opportunity.
I HATE who I used to be. I'm no murderer, thief, abuser, liar, etc and like everyone I sin LESS but there's no way I've lost salvation. I HATE being so ignorant, angry, and hateful. NOTHING could make me want to return to being that.

He gives long lives to evil people who never change. Why? IDK and I'm not going to try b/c it's beyond mortal understanding.

 

[KingJ]

Rom 11:21-22
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul was talking to Gentile believers here, and saying to them, if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee.

On face value this appears to be a direct debunk of OSAS as it states 'natural branches'. But as you correctly state, context is key.

The context here is that the 'natural branches' are Jews. Ethnic Israel. Wild olive branches are gentiles. Ethnic Jews are not Christians.

 

[KingJ]

You say that we say, he cannot vet a persons heart, and I absolutely no clue what you mean by this, God knows every heart, and knows everything.

If you do believe God can properly vet a heart, why do you not believe in OSAS?

If God washed clean in the blood of the Lamb a Judas that will inevitably betray Him, surely you would not believe or say He properly vetted his heart?

Either God can or God can't. It is because He can that there is scripture that states 'eternal bliss'. If He could not, there would be no eternal suffering or bliss. We will travel between the two on a consistent basis.

This is why I repeatedly state that the non-OSAS crowd do not know what a Christian is. What it takes to become one. As I explain here:

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

You say that we say, that he can gift salvation to a Judas, when salvation has to be received and accepted, and in the time of Judas Iscariot, you could indeed put your faith in God, but could not be born again, you would escape hell upon death, and be placed in a place called Abraham's bossom, that is until Christ died on the cross and rose again, and sent back the Holy Ghost, and then from then on, people that are in Christ would go to Heaven.

Agreed. There was a discussion a while back where non-OSAS believers used Judas as an example of losing salvation as he was a 'chosen' disciple.

It prompted me to create this post:

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 189
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

 

[KingJ]

Man without excuse

The bible proclaims this:

Rom 1:20-21
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God does many things to draw man unto himself, he speaks to man through his creation, and speaks his word to people's hearts through his still small voice, and uses people to speak the word of God to others.

The bible says this:

Joh 6:44 (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32 (32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And when Jesus would be lifted up on the cross, he would draw all men unto him, no exception, and it is God that draws us by his Spirit.

All get drawn to him in some way, shape or form, therefore man cannot give an excuse of that they were not drawn.

And the bible also says this:

Joh 15:16
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

What does it mean by saying ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ? ? ?

Is it because we had no choice in the matter ? Or is it saying this in another manner ?

If God says in a verse to choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, and in another verse ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ?

How do you harmonize that without taking away from any scripture ???

Because it must be according to sound doctrine.

Well it is not because we had no choice in the matter, but rather it is that we were not the arbitrators of the drawing and the salvation plan, he chose to to save man not us, and as a result of that we were able to make a choice, it was God that sent his son, not us.

Man was not the arbitrator of the plan.

And here is proof that men can receive him:

Act 2:41
(41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 8:14
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 11:1
(1) And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

So here we have harmonized scripture with scripture which shows no contradictions, but if you go the no choice way, there are many contradictions, which shows that it is not according to sound doctrine.

I agree with all you have said here.

 

[KingJ]

God does not force people.

You should stick to scripture, rather than trying to find an argument, I probably won't convince you, because you seem too far into your way of thinking, that no scripture would matter.

This is not true. I was once a non-OSAS believer, annihilationist and a non trinitarian. After much debate and study I can confirm that all three are extreme error and I cannot believe I believed them.

Your line is actually ironic. Look at the non existent attempts to debunk my accusations in post # 5 of this thread. BAC took a stab, but he put no effort into it and made silly points that just move the goal posts.

So once in Christ, should you continue in him or not

There is actually so much to unpack here.

In the entirety of the OT one could argue that if you did not follow the law you would not go to paradise. But yet we see a glimpse of deeper judgement by God over merely works and the appearance of works. In Psalm 51:17 David states that God will certainly not despise a broken and contrite heart. Even in the OT heart condition mattered more than people give it credit.

A Christian is someone who has 'given their heart' to Jesus. Jesus judged this as only He can Jer 17:9-10 and chose to come in Rev 3:20.

Now why I say the heart of the matter is that people don't understand what a Christian is, is due to the fact that in order for Jesus to come into your heart, you need 10/10 devotion. Matt 16:24 explains this. I like to use the following two passages to make the point of the level of devotion required:

1. Rev 2:10 and 2. Rom 2:11. Rev 2:10 = martyrdom will result in a crown for some, Rom 2:11 God is impartial.

IE If God expects devotion at the level of martyrdom from some before He gifts them a crown, He will demand it of all. A Christian is NOT someone who ''tastes'', "partakes'', ''shares in''.

Back to your question. The answer is If you are in Christ, as a true Christian and not someone 'so called 1 Cor 5:11' then you can't but 'continue in Him'.

If you don't agree, why do you believe in eternal bliss? Why do you believe that God and saints will live together for all eternity? Surely there will be times we get annoyed with God and Him with us. Times that we want to break rules and jump ship. Exercise our free will. I mean for arguments sake, eternity is a long time. Surely on year 50 million you will get so tired of your neighbour and their barking dog that you just want to commit sin and or run away?

We will never desire to run away as for all eternity we will remember the cross!! The time that God made Himself flesh and lay His life down for us. Isa 9:6. Likewise God, He will remember the heart He chose to wash clean in the blood of the Lamb and graft into His family. An unbreakable bond between Creator and creation, one that will last for all eternity.

 

[KingJ]

Predestination

There are a few verses that concerns the word predestination, but I will deal with the one mentioned by KIngJ, in his first post.

Rom 8:28-30
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So verse 29 starts off with whom he did foreknow.

The word foreknow speaks of foreknowledge, that is to know before hand.

God is all knowing.

So what did God foreknow ?

Well verse 28 speaks of them that love God and are called according to his purpose.

These ones that love God, are the saved, so they he knew before hand that would get saved, he predestinated these people once saved, to be conformed to his image.

For once we are saved, that is what we are predestined to.

And the ones who are predestined to be conformed to his image, are also the called, and they are justified, and glorified.

And really that is all it is referring to here, and notice I focused on these particular verses, and not on other verses that mention similar words, and I like to take verses within their own context.

I don't agree with predestination. I agree with your rebuttal of it. Calvinists call it 'unconditional election'. It incriminates God as partial. No true free will = partiality. When hell is the punishment for those not chosen, it makes God monstrously evil.

The only slightly good thing about Calvinism on this is that they believe in annihilationism and not eternal torment.

 

[KingJ]

I am not trying to be mean KingJ.

In the bible it says this:

Isa 55:8
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

If you are saying that we are saying that God is dumb, and he says in his own word that someone can be saved, and than latter be cut off, why would you say such a thing?

Because we have proven that it actually shows that.

Do you not fear the Lord?

Do you not fear to adding to his word ?

Who cares about a certain way of thinking, we need to be conformed to his way of thinking, whether we understand it or not.

I agree with your line of questioning and thoughts. You will see I do this with your belief in post # 5,

So I fire questions back at you. According to post # 5, do you not care that your belief incriminates God as unjust, partial and stumbles the weak and lost as it brings eternal bliss into question when it suggests God cannot properly vet someone?

Regarding your accusations of me.

1. I do fear the Lord. Which is why I make 100% certain that nothing I teach incriminates or misrepresents Him.
2. I do not add to His word. Where have I done this?

Relevant posts from me on this topic of fearing God:

Thread 'Many Christians just don't know God and it is so SAD'

Sep 29, 2025

Prophets who knew God really well, better than you or I, defined Him as follows:

1. 1 John 1:5 that God is light with no darkness in Him at all
2. Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways
3. 1 John 4:8 God is love and whoever does not know love does not know God
4. Psalm 136:1 God is good and His mercy endures forever
5. Job 34:12 it is unthinkable that God do what is wicked or pervert justice

And yet, we have many today that do not care how they...

• KingJ
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Bible Study

Thread 'Why don't Christians fear God?'

Nov 6, 2022

The only time I would think a Christian needs to fear God is when they are guilty of false teaching. Leading the lost astray.

As such, how is it that so many who know the bible, can cherry pick scriptures and contrive wicked nuggets of lies about God without being terrified of Him?

The prophets who knew God better then you and I had this to say of Him:

1. He is good - Psalm 136:1
2. He is just / He loves justice - Isa 61:8, Isa 30:18
3. He is righteous in all His ways - Psalm 145:17
4. He is light with no darkness in Him - 1 John 1:5
5. He is wise - Rom 16:27

When you have a belief...

• KingJ
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[KingJ]

KingJ God is not unfair, God sees the heart, he said this to the thief:

Luk 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief was repentfull and wanted Christ, and Jesus himself said this day you shall be with me in paradise.

It is not about vetting a heart or not, it is about the condition of the heart, and whether you served him for 25 years, or for one day, it is about the condition of the heart.

You read this and still maintain that God is fair with a non-OSAS belief? How so?

The argument being raised is ''is God just'' if he gives a different set of requirements for salvation to person A over person B?

Non - OSAS teaches:

Person A - Criminal next to Jesus: Repentance + Accepting Jesus as Lord = Eternal Bliss

Person B - King J: Repentance + Accepting Jesus as Lord + 25 years of service + 1 mortal sin in year 31 = eternal fire and torment.

 

[Gerbolski]

On face value this appears to be a direct debunk of OSAS as it states 'natural branches'. But as you correctly state, context is key.

The context here is that the 'natural branches' are Jews. Ethnic Israel. Wild olive branches are gentiles. Ethnic Jews are not Christians.

Yes the natural branches are Jews, but here he was speaking to believing Gentiles, here are the verses:

Rom 11:21-22
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If he spared not the Jews (natural branches), take heed lest he also spare not thee (believing Gentiles).

He is talking to believing Gentiles, when he talks about continuing in his goodness.

 

[Gerbolski]

KinJ, most of your posts are not even worth commenting on, for it is very strange objections, and continuous defense of basically weirdness.

And it is not that I won't comment on some, but some objections almost defy logic.

 

[KingJ]

KinJ, most of your posts are not even worth commenting on, for it is very strange objections, and continuous defense of basically weirdness.

And it is not that I won't comment on some, but some objections almost defy logic.

What a cop out. If you think that post 5 is not logical, you should certainly not be teaching anyone anything.

God is ''''just''' when He COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH sends me to eternal bliss after repentance of sin and YOU to eternal fire and torment after repentance of sin, 30 years of servitude and a mortal sin just before you died.

Weird. Strange objections. ROTFLMAO!!! What an epic cop out.

---------------

Do you have young kids? Go to one who has recently been naughty and chase them out of your house forever. And when your wife objects, tell her it was judgement day and she must stop being weird and making a strange objection XDDDDDDDD

 

[KingJ]

Yes the natural branches are Jews, but here he was speaking to believing Gentiles, here are the verses:

Rom 11:21-22
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If he spared not the Jews (natural branches), take heed lest he also spare not thee (believing Gentiles).

He is talking to believing Gentiles, when he talks about continuing in his goodness.

You are reading into the verse. Making it say something it was not meant to say. You cannot parallel truly saved Christians with people born as ethnic Jews.

It is a warning to gentiles to take serving God seriously. Much like 90% of Paul's teaching.

When considering Paul's teaching, you need to include all his teaching on the topic. Those like this one in Rom 11 together with those in my OP. 1 Cor 5:11 and Matt 7:22-23 explain that anyone who continues in sin unrepentant is a brother and sister so called, someone who was not ever known by God.

What you and others are doing is called cherry picking.

 

[Gerbolski]

Judas Iscariot


Luk 9:1-2
(1) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
(2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Jesus never gave power and authority over devils to unbelievers, for you will not find that in the word of God, and Judas Iscariot was among these 12 who were used of God and given power over devils.

But at some point the devil entered into him:

Joh 13:26-27
(26) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
(27) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Now concerning our next verses, this was speaking to various disciples, and not just the 12, as we will see:

Joh 6:64-70
(64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
(65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
(66) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

It says that Jesus knew from the beginning who they were (plural) that believed not, and also it says and who should betray him.

So because of Christ's hard sayings, a certain amount of people that called themselves disciples no longer walked with him.

Now 11 of the 12 were still walking with him, but not these so-called disciples which really did not believe.

Now concerning Judas Iscariot, he did believe at one point, but just not here.

And our next verses will bring everything together:

Joh 17:12
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This was speaking of during Christ's ministry, that the ones that were truly given to him, he lost none of them, except Judas Iscariot, so then it goes to say, were those Disciples that walked with him no more, ever true disciples ? Obviously not, for it would have said here that he lost them as well, but only Judas Iscariot became lost, he was kept in his name till he turned away from Christ, thus became lost.

He went from one condition to a lost condition.

He was given to Jesus and kept in his name, but eventually became lost.

But concerning the so-called disciples who followed him no more, they were never saved.

 

[KingJ]

@Gerbolski Until you do the below, I am sorry, I just cannot discuss further with you. Much like @B-A-C 's post # 64, you two are coming across as intellectually dishonest trolls who refuse to accept correction.

KinJ, most of your posts are not even worth commenting on, for it is very strange objections, and continuous defense of basically weirdness.

And it is not that I won't comment on some, but some objections almost defy logic.

Do you have young kids? Go to one who has loved you and been a good child their whole life, but was recently naughty and chase them out of your house. Send them to an eternal prison with fire. And when your wife objects, tell her it was judgement day and she must stop being weird and making a strange objection. XDDDDDDDD

 

[MedicBravo]

In all this, if a person/Christian bounces from being unsaved to saved and back, then that greatly diminishes Jesus' sacrifice.
Anyone can have a "crisis of faith" and say/do stupid things.
This doesn't add up.
Only God knows who is and is NOT. Humans may FEEL they are and have a strong feeling even with outward signs that infer yes or no.
OSAS IS legit.