Paul taught OSAS

[Gerbolski]

Man without excuse

The bible proclaims this:

Rom 1:20-21
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God does many things to draw man unto himself, he speaks to man through his creation, and speaks his word to people's hearts through his still small voice, and uses people to speak the word of God to others.

The bible says this:

Joh 6:44 (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32 (32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And when Jesus would be lifted up on the cross, he would draw all men unto him, no exception, and it is God that draws us by his Spirit.

All get drawn to him in some way, shape or form, therefore man cannot give an excuse of that they were not drawn.

And the bible also says this:

Joh 15:16
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

What does it mean by saying ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ? ? ?

Is it because we had no choice in the matter ? Or is it saying this in another manner ?

If God says in a verse to choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, and in another verse ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ?

How do you harmonize that without taking away from any scripture ???

Because it must be according to sound doctrine.

Well it is not because we had no choice in the matter, but rather it is that we were not the arbitrators of the drawing and the salvation plan, he chose to to save man not us, and as a result of that we were able to make a choice, it was God that sent his son, not us.

Man was not the arbitrator of the plan.

And here is proof that men can receive him:

Act 2:41
(41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 8:14
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 11:1
(1) And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

So here we have harmonized scripture with scripture which shows no contradictions, but if you go the no choice way, there are many contradictions, which shows that it is not according to sound doctrine.

 

[KingJ]

God does not force people.

Where do you get force people from? You are adding to statements I have made.

You should stick to scripture, rather than trying to find an argument, I probably won't convince you, because you seem too far into your way of thinking, that no scripture would matter.

Oh of course, all scripture, not only the cherry picked. Note how I addressed scripture in post # 2 and nobody has yet taken a stab at my OP.

So once in Christ, should you continue in him or not ?

For the umpteenth time do you think God / Christ is a fool that would marry / wash clean in His blood a clown with a dark heart?

If you are in Christ you have passed His judgement and if you die you will go to heaven.

-------------------

I like how you are person # 4 that is not even trying to take a stab at my accusations of your belief.

It is a Christians job 2 Cor 5:17 to properly represent God. I have accused your belief of incriminating Him. If you accused my belief of that, I would make sure to have a proper defence.

 

[KingJ]

OSAS is pure Calvinism... no free will.

You keep saying that .

Yes, Calvinists believe in OSAS. But they add unconditional election and limited atonement to it. These are monstrously evil beliefs as they incriminate God as partial from when we were created. Making a meal of Rom 9:21.

We have free will before we are saved. We choose to repent of our sins or not. John 3:16 is crystal clear on the 'whomsoever'.

We have free will when we are saved. We can be good, lazy or bad children. We certainly don't lose our blood covenant if we are lazy or bad children.

He won't "waste" His time on those He knows won't choose to stay saved.
(Predestination)
He only chooses those who will stay saved.
(Conditional election)
And once He chooses you, you have no choice but to remain saved.
(Irresistable grace).

Calvinism is causing the rift between you and OSAS I see. I agree 100% with disliking Calvinism.

You need to take a step back, take your entire belief and simply add '''one'' truth. Namely, God can and does properly VET a person before washing them clean and grafting them into His family. That is it, that is the A-Z of our disagreement!!!!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!!

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

..and yet the Bible says some people will be "removed" out of His kingdom. (Parable of wheat and tares).

Yes, brothers and sisters so called 1 Cor 5:11 and people He does not know Matt 7:22-23.

 

[KingJ]

And yet the Bible mentions over a dozen places where people left Him.
Jesus said narrow is the gate that leads to life... and there are "FEW" that find it.
Wide is the path that leads to destruction.. and "MANY" will find that.

So then... why did God "waste" His time creating them at all?
Why did God "waste" His time creating humanity.. just to destroy 99% of them in a flood?
Why did God waste His time on Solomon before he turned to other gods.
Why did God waste His time on Judas?
Why did God waste His time on Ananias and Sapphira?
Why did God waste His time on the Jews in the wilderness for 40 years, if 99% of them wouldn't enter Canaan?
Why did God waste His time grafting the Jews in, just to graft them out later?

Could it be... that God doesn't consider these things a waste. In fact it would seem there are rewards for trying even
if people dont get saved.

The great commission... go unto "all" the world... even though "all" the world won't accept your message.
Whoever doesn't receive your message... wipe the dust off your feet and go somewhere else.

But it doesn't say "don't waste your time on them".
There is no such thing as wasted time when it comes to people's salvation. Even if they don't accept it.

In fact I would submit... the real wasted time,, is the time we don't spend trying.

You are going off on an anti Calvinist tangent. OSAS is true, Calvinism is not.

Judas, Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians. Do you believe that God would have sent Judas to eternal bliss if he died before he betrayed Jesus? Imagine that.

With your non-OSAS view heaven just may be a terrible place. All these closet sinners who never had the time to show their true colours.

 

[KingJ]

As always, non - OSAS crowd dance around my accusations of your belief that terribly misrepresents God as unjust.

Not one of you have taken a stab at post # 5. @B-A-C , @Gothedral , @backNforth , @Gerbolski

 

[Gerbolski]

Hi KingJ, I see that you say you reject Calvinism, but just accept the OSAS doctrine.

And whatever your position is on the TULIP points, I will look at some scriptures you mentioned, context is very important to look at.



Rom 11:21-29
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Now it mentions the word gifts in plural here, and the calling of God.

And in verse 28 it mentions the word election, which in this case speaks of Israel.

Now in the bible, the word elect, in most cases either refers to the church or Israel, depending on context.
And here it is saying that the nation of Israel, as touching the election, that they are still his beloved, he has not changed his mind on that, they are still his elect, in that he still calls them his people, even though they as a nation, are enemies of the cross.

Now that does not mean that Israel as a nation is a saved, but that the call to be his people still remains, and one day, near the time of the second coming, and millennial reign, they will be saved.

So God did not changed his mind on that, neither did he change his mind on the promise of them having the land, and neither will God change his mind in sending his son, so that men could be saved.

Salvation is a gift, God offered it, and he does not repent over it, he does not regret in offering it.

Now can salvation be rejected once saved ?

Rom 11:21-22
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul was talking to Gentile believers here, and saying to them, if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Then it speaks of the severity and goodness of God, the ones who fell got severity, but toward these Gentile believers, goodness would be shown, but only if they continued in his goodness, otherwise even these Gentile believers would be cut off.

And concerning Israel, it says this:

Rom 11:25
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It says blindness in part has happened to Israel, and not blindness in full, why?

Because not all Jews rejected Jesus at the time, but most did, and an example of them who did receive Christ were the 120 in the upper room.

So KingJ, context is key, and you you say we do not accept your challenges, yet you never truly answered my question of should we continue in Christ or not, with the actual scripture I used, and commenting on it, without adding or taking away from it.


And I have no problem in looking at your other scriptures.

 

[Gerbolski]

For the umpteenth time do you think God / Christ is a fool that would marry / wash clean in His blood a clown with a dark heart?

If you are in Christ you have passed His judgement and if you die you will go to heaven.

KingJ, this was your argument via if we should continue in Christ or not, but you failed to prove your point by scripture, and it seems you cannot mention the scripture I mentioned, and take it in context without changing what it says.

 

[Gerbolski]

Predestination

There are a few verses that concerns the word predestination, but I will deal with the one mentioned by KIngJ, in his first post.

Rom 8:28-30
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So verse 29 starts off with whom he did foreknow.

The word foreknow speaks of foreknowledge, that is to know before hand.

God is all knowing.

So what did God foreknow ?

Well verse 28 speaks of them that love God and are called according to his purpose.

These ones that love God, are the saved, so they he knew before hand that would get saved, he predestinated these people once saved, to be conformed to his image.

For once we are saved, that is what we are predestined to.

And the ones who are predestined to be conformed to his image, are also the called, and they are justified, and glorified.

And really that is all it is referring to here, and notice I focused on these particular verses, and not on other verses that mention similar words, and I like to take verses within their own context.

 

[B-A-C]

Not one of you have taken a stab at post # 5. @B-A-C , @Gothedral , @backNforth , @Gerbolski

Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

2Kin 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.

2Chr 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Chr 12:1 When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Isa 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.
Jer 22:9 "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

1Kin 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Kin 11:8 Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

 

[KingJ]

Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

2Kin 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.

2Chr 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Chr 12:1 When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Isa 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.
Jer 22:9 "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

1Kin 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Kin 11:8 Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

You quote my post and then post scripture completely and utterly unrelated.

I made 4 simple accusations of your belief in post # 5. Please can you reply like this.

1. False because of A, B and C.
2. False because of A, B and C.
3. False because of A, B and C.
4. False because of A, B and C.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[KingJ]

Predestination

There are a few verses that concerns the word predestination, but I will deal with the one mentioned by KIngJ, in his first post.

Rom 8:28-30
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So verse 29 starts off with whom he did foreknow.

The word foreknow speaks of foreknowledge, that is to know before hand.

God is all knowing.

So what did God foreknow ?

Well verse 28 speaks of them that love God and are called according to his purpose.

These ones that love God, are the saved, so they he knew before hand that would get saved, he predestinated these people once saved, to be conformed to his image.

For once we are saved, that is what we are predestined to.

And the ones who are predestined to be conformed to his image, are also the called, and they are justified, and glorified.

And really that is all it is referring to here, and notice I focused on these particular verses, and not on other verses that mention similar words, and I like to take verses within their own context.

You are creating a rabbit trail.

Deal with my accusations first and you will see where I am coming from. It will also help you better read and interpret the passages you are cherry picking.

I made 4 simple accusations of your belief in post # 5. Please can you reply like this.

1. False because of A, B and C.
2. False because of A, B and C.
3. False because of A, B and C.
4. False because of A, B and C.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 8:9 His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Verse 12 - These are not saved, never were.
Verse 13 - These are saved "for a while" - and then "fall away".
Verse 14 - These are saved even longer, they even start to bear fruit (which they could not do without Jesus), but it never matures.
Verse 15 - These people are still saved.

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Matt 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

People will be taken "out of (Jesus's) kingdom and thrown into the furnace of fire.

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

God says just because you are grafted in now, is no guarantee you will stay grafted in.

 

[KingJ]

Luke 8:9 His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Verse 12 - These are not saved, never were.
Verse 13 - These are saved "for a while" - and then "fall away".
Verse 14 - These are saved even longer, they even start to bear fruit (which they could not do without Jesus), but it never matures.
Verse 15 - These people are still saved.
1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Matt 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
People will be taken "out of (Jesus's) kingdom and thrown into the furnace of fire.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[B-A-C]

2Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Why would Jesus be expecting to find fruit on this tree? Especially if He is the vine, and the tree can't bear fruit without Him?
Some trees, even when being watered and fertilized by Jesus and the Holy Spirit... still refuse to bear fruit. They will be cut down.

 

[Gerbolski]

You are creating a rabbit trail.

Deal with my accusations first and you will see where I am coming from. It will also help you better read and interpret the passages you are cherry picking.

I made 4 simple accusations of your belief in post # 5. Please can you reply like this.

1. False because of A, B and C.
2. False because of A, B and C.
3. False because of A, B and C.
4. False because of A, B and C.

Is this too much to ask?

First of all, I was beginning to comment on some of your scriptures, and you have written so many things, that it is hard to know which parts you are referring to, since I am new here, and did not start off from the beginning of this thread.

Can you mention the points briefly one by one, and so far I only see arguments from you, and avoiding many scriptures, do you get pleasure from arguing ???

And this is a sincere question, and if you do accuse me of this or that, and your goal is for us to argue about it, well I do not want to puff up your flesh.

If you say that through my beliefs I am calling God dumb and so on, then that is you, I am not bound by your thoughts.

 

[Gerbolski]

I am not trying to be mean KingJ.

In the bible it says this:

Isa 55:8
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

If you are saying that we are saying that God is dumb, and he says in his own word that someone can be saved, and than latter be cut off, why would you say such a thing?

Because we have proven that it actually shows that.

Do you not fear the Lord?

Do you not fear to adding to his word ?

Who cares about a certain way of thinking, we need to be conformed to his way of thinking, whether we understand it or not.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C @Gerbolski

A non-OSAS belief implies:

1. God is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

2. Eternal security is a lie.

As God cannot properly vet anyone, nobody is eternally secure.

3. God is unjust.

He can gift a thief next to Jesus who repents of his sin with eternal bliss. But yet, someone who does this and more, and falls into sin in their, let's say 50'th year of service, will receive eternal fire.

4. God is partial.

He gives some a short life with few opportunities to lose their salvation, whilst others He gives a long life, and hence many more opportunities and time to lose salvation. Some are called to witness to professional, respectful people in an office environment. Others, to prostitutes where the risk of them falling into sin is much higher.

Please can you reply like this.

1. False because of A, B and C.
2. False because of A, B and C.
3. False because of A, B and C.
4. False because of A, B and C.

Is this too much to ask?

 

[Gerbolski]

Your questions are a little bit weird KingJ.

Ok you say this about a non-OSAS belief, and that we imply this:

1. God is dumb.

He cannot vet a persons heart. He can gift salvation to a Judas. Or dependant on timing (pre betrayal), He can graft someone like Judas into heaven.

You say that we say, he cannot vet a persons heart, and I absolutely no clue what you mean by this, God knows every heart, and knows everything.

Psa 69:32
(32) The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

God knows whom are his, and no one is perfect, but someone who is truly seeking after God, walks by faith, and is repentful when he sins, and seeks to turn a 180 degree from sin.

You say that we say, that he can gift salvation to a Judas, when salvation has to be received and accepted, and in the time of Judas Iscariot, you could indeed put your faith in God, but could not be born again, you would escape hell upon death, and be placed in a place called Abraham's bossom, that is until Christ died on the cross and rose again, and sent back the Holy Ghost, and then from then on, people that are in Christ would go to Heaven.

Many dead rose after Christ's resurrection, and even went home, and as for the new testament church, it was born on the day of Pentecost, and on that day, the Holy Ghost was sent back, and then men became born again, and also filled with the Spirit.

As concerning Judas Iscariot, he did follow Christ at the beginning, God even used him to set people free from diseases, and demon spirits:

Luk 9:1-2
(1) Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
(2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

All were sent to preach the kingdom of God, all 12 of them.

It is only later that Satan entered Judas.

Joh 13:26-27
(26) Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
(27) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Judas began in faith, and later departed from faith, plain and simple.

If you depart from faith you ain't going to Heaven, and concerning the grafting you speak of, that was talking about how God can graft Israel back in, how ? By Israeli people, placing their faith and trust in God.

God says this:

Rom 11:23
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The condition to being graffed in a second time, is to believe.

So KINGJ WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

 

[Gerbolski]

KingJ God is not unfair, God sees the heart, he said this to the thief:

Luk 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief was repentfull and wanted Christ, and Jesus himself said this day you shall be with me in paradise.

It is not about vetting a heart or not, it is about the condition of the heart, and whether you served him for 25 years, or for one day, it is about the condition of the heart.