Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

No, you are forcing the Bible into a system it does not teach. Scripture never says Christ’s atonement is only for the elect, it says plainly, “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). “Whole world” means exactly what John already used it to mean earlier, every sinner, everywhere (1 John 5:19). Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it is only applied to those who believe, because “he that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already” (John 3:18). The difference is not in the power of the atonement but in whether a person receives or rejects it.

Yes, Jesus said, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” (John 15: 16), but He was speaking to His apostles about their appointment to go and bear fruit, not about limiting His atonement. The same Gospel records Him saying, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). The offer of salvation is genuinely to all, and the condemnation comes from unbelief, not from Christ refusing to atone for them.

To be clear: Christ’s atonement never fails. Hebrews 10: 14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” Every sinner who believes is saved completely. But those who perish do so “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). The Bible teaches a universal provision, but a conditional application: all may be saved, but only those who believe are.

Then, bdavidc, you believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

God Almighty is all mighty, so Almighty God's atonement never fails; in contrast, free-willian's people like Nancy result in free-willians believing that God is weak because Christ's atonement failed to atone for Nancy.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

You are trying to stuff your words into Christ’s mouth by writing "He was speaking to His apostles about their appointment to go and bear fruit, not about limiting His atonement".

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Oh, Twistie,

I and every Christian need our Savior because, living Lord Jesus loved me, dying he saved me, buried He carried my sins far away, and rising He justified me.

The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals​

The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh is hostile against God and the flesh cannot please God with "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF SAVIOR GOD IN MAN (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The indwelling Holy Spirit has had me explain to you that I am a Christian under the loving control of the Living God, yet you wrote "You try n teach a different word then the Word that walked the earth.. Let all who do that be accursed as it is written", so you slander (blaspheme) the Holy Spirit who controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14)! The Word of God declares "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matthew 12:31-32).

The whole of the Bible reveals the Sovereignty of God and man's complete dependence upon God for being saved from the wrath of God. The whole of the Bible teaches God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)!

Saved by my loving Lord Jesus,
Kermos

Dude I see what you r doing seems you got a keep trying to get people to believe you.. unfortunately for you n many like you you just don't get it's the Holy Spirit that truly teaches His children..
Your too busy seeking your ways in the Word n His ways are not like ours.
I don't throw my pearls to swine . I don't debate the Word. Everything is written yet ones like you that r taught by templers that do the weekend warrior thing get so brain warped from the curses that the leaders of the temples put on them they can't seem to break free of that bind they r in.. they rather go n argue prove that their way is right n the Lords way is wrong n that's not what God means n a bunch of other nonsense..
Now you keep following n worshipping the god that tickles your ear mean while imma stick with the Living God I know He got me I know He guides me in Truth n I know His voice.idk what your following but I hope one day you truly encounter the Living Creator..

(⁠｡⁠♡⁠‿⁠♡⁠｡⁠)

 

[Kermos]

(Heavy sigh)

There is a joy in the Lord brother. Do you know it?
When you read His Word, does it have you at times jumping up in wonder, amazement, and joy?
The joy in knowing how awesome He is?

If you don't find this same joy in the brotherhood of faith as well, even though I know it can also be trying at times, then you are missing out in the love that is God. Don't let stoicism take it away from you.

Hello Christ4Ever,

I ask you the same, Christ4Ever, "Do you know it? When you read His Word, does it have you at times jumping up in wonder, amazement, and joy? The joy in knowing how awesome He is?"

Now, I answer with this quote from post #32 in this thread:

I am a Christian because I joyfully follow Christ.
​

I marvel at Christ's glorious works!

I am humbled by the sacrifice Christ did for me!

I kneel in awe of the Word of God!

I stand in excitement for the Son of God's loving return!

My very sustenance is my Lord Jesus!

My rest is in the Lord of the Sabbath.

Emmanuel's love for His own flock is immeasurable!

I could ask "how about you" right about now, but, no, because it's really about Jesus and what He says.

It's not about frail me, so let's just stay with Him who saves and what He says.

That which was given to me by my Redeemer cannot be taken away (John 10:28), so I don't know why you would write "Don't let stoicism take it away from you".

What you see in what you have written above is the lack of free-will, what I see is obedience, and free-will in action! lol (joy)
For you there is no obedience, because there is no free-will! Don't you see that!

Off to breakfast or I'd be gnawing over this for a while. Instead, it goes to you as quickly as I've read it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Don't you see there is no free-will in "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39) nor in "I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38) nor in "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30) nor in "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do" (John 17:4)!

Obedience happens as Fruit of the Spirit because a person's will is controlled by God (Philippians 2:13); otherwise, a person is trying to work obedience in the person's flesh which always fails because "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

The love of God is precisely where God chooses to place His love. Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast.

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Hello Christ4Ever,

I ask you the same, Christ4Ever, "Do you know it? When you read His Word, does it have you at times jumping up in wonder, amazement, and joy? The joy in knowing how awesome He is?"

Now, I answer with this quote from post #32 in this thread:

I am a Christian because I joyfully follow Christ.
​

I marvel at Christ's glorious works!

I am humbled by the sacrifice Christ did for me!

I kneel in awe of the Word of God!

I stand in excitement for the Son of God's loving return!

My very sustenance is my Lord Jesus!

My rest is in the Lord of the Sabbath.

Emmanuel's love for His own flock is immeasurable!

I could ask "how about you" right about now, but, no, because it's really about Jesus and what He says.

It's not about frail me, so let's just stay with Him who saves and what He says.

That which was given to me by my Redeemer cannot be taken away (John 10:28), so I don't know why you would write "Don't let stoicism take it away from you".



Don't you see there is no free-will in "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39) nor in "I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38) nor in "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30) nor in "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do" (John 17:4)!

Obedience happens as Fruit of the Spirit because a person's will is controlled by God (Philippians 2:13); otherwise, a person is trying to work obedience in the person's flesh which always fails because "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

The love of God is precisely where God chooses to place His love. Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast.

Love,
Kermos

Funny how ya keep trying to get followers away from the Lord and to bend a knee to you.. hmm perhaps pride? I've heard stories from those who rode high on a spiritual pride until the Lord knocked them off..

Perhaps instead of seeking your will try seeking the Lord unless you believe you don't need to because you know everything.. I'm j.s.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and -lean not- unto thine -own -- understanding-. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths".

Your ways are that of the false wanna be teachers or preachers or whatever title one wants to put in themselves..

Pride makes one deaf ya know makes man believe only they can make straight the path of another n that the Lord needs them..

└⁠|⁠∵⁠|⁠┐⁠♪

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello Christ4Ever,

I ask you the same, Christ4Ever, "Do you know it? When you read His Word, does it have you at times jumping up in wonder, amazement, and joy? The joy in knowing how awesome He is?"

Now, I answer with this quote from post #32 in this thread:

I am a Christian because I joyfully follow Christ.

I marvel at Christ's glorious works!

I am humbled by the sacrifice Christ did for me!

I kneel in awe of the Word of God!

I stand in excitement for the Son of God's loving return!

My very sustenance is my Lord Jesus!

My rest is in the Lord of the Sabbath.

Emmanuel's love for His own flock is immeasurable!

I could ask "how about you" right about now, but, no, because it's really about Jesus and what He says.

It's not about frail me, so let's just stay with Him who saves and what He says.

That which was given to me by my Redeemer cannot be taken away (John 10:28), so I don't know why you would write "Don't let stoicism take it away from you".

I am glad to hear what you have written.
Why stoicism, because you have made God a puppet master, that rather than have His creation seek Him voluntarily, they must be willed to do so. Not a voluntary action of love and devotion, which your own is a joy to know that you have shared with me, but what I fear to say is false to you though true to God by your own reckoning because it is only a by-product of a creation that had no choice in it.

Don't you see there is no free-will in "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will" (Matthew 26:39) nor in "I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38) nor in "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30) nor in "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do" (John 17:4)!

Obedience happens as Fruit of the Spirit because a person's will is controlled by God (Philippians 2:13); otherwise, a person is trying to work obedience in the person's flesh which always fails because "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

The love of God is precisely where God chooses to place His love. Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast.

I did enjoy my breakfast, thank-you.

You think it makes sense about "Obedience" but it does not. You needed to include Phil 2:16. The very act itself requires one to be able to choose not to, even if Spirit filled, as it was with Jesus. You read it differently than I do that Jesus never had a choice and as the Son of God would have known this and made the conversation unnecessary to have in the first place.

We are at a loggerhead brother. You believe in predestination with no free-will, while I believe in predestination with free-will. I believe this because predestination requires foreknowledge (Romans 8:29), and foreknowledge does not preclude free-will from being given to His creation. You can show that God has awareness and purpose, omniscience, but not necessarily that He causes it to be so or excludes free-will in choosing.

Otherwise, if He causes it all to happen as He wills, then the guilt of man's actions is not man's but His. i.e. Jesus being crucified by wicked men which was predetermined, and purposeful. So, certainty of action, does not mean compulsion by God of humanities actions, just foreknowledge of them that they would. Ensuring that God does not micromanage everything, but His will still gets done. If not you, then He'd get someone else. He is no respecter of persons. My God is awesome whereby He allows for free-will to exist while still having His purpose, will to be done. While you believe that His will precludes free-will from existing.

One can think of the story of Joseph and what happened to him by his brothers. With no free-will his brothers did evil was intended to be done by God's will, vs the brothers free-will which was an evil action against Joseph, and God's purpose was to having good come of it. Your way would have God being the cause of sin, for His purpose to be fulfilled and we know through James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

I must ask you then which God is greater. The one who does not allow for free-will and causes evil/sin to happen or the one who allows for free-will and is able to have His will done anyway in spite of the evil/sin of man?

"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! Deuteronomy 30:19 NLT

You're a micromanager aren't you?

I'm getting a little tired right now, or I'd go all night & morning!
It is as if one thought races to another, then another! I wonder even with being tired if I'll be able to get some sleep! Oh, well.
Thank-you for the discussion.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Kermos]

Dude I see what you r doing seems you got a keep trying to get people to believe you.. unfortunately for you n many like you you just don't get it's the Holy Spirit that truly teaches His children..
Your too busy seeking your ways in the Word n His ways are not like ours.
I don't throw my pearls to swine . I don't debate the Word. Everything is written yet ones like you that r taught by templers that do the weekend warrior thing get so brain warped from the curses that the leaders of the temples put on them they can't seem to break free of that bind they r in.. they rather go n argue prove that their way is right n the Lords way is wrong n that's not what God means n a bunch of other nonsense..
Now you keep following n worshipping the god that tickles your ear mean while imma stick with the Living God I know He got me I know He guides me in Truth n I know His voice.idk what your following but I hope one day you truly encounter the Living Creator..

(⁠｡⁠♡⁠‿⁠♡⁠｡⁠)

Hi Twistie,

You preach that you free-will choose Jesus, but now you wrote "I know He got me I know He guides me in Truth n I know His voice"; in other words, you have contradictory belief which is a state of confusion, so read this God is not a god of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You opened with "I see what you r doing seems you got a keep trying to get people to believe you", yet Lord Jesus Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to proclaim the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) who is the very Word of God by quotation and citation again and again and again. God has me here proclaiming God's thoughts as revealed in the Word of God.

For 13 posts, as of your post #62, you've not quoted nor cited the Word of God, so the degree of value for you about the Word of God is plainly visible.

Granted, you just wrote "His ways are not like ours" in your post #62, but your words lack the intense veracity of that which is the Word of God "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares YHWH. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9). You muted and oversimplified and arguably adulterated the Word of God in your "free-will".

The immeasurable treasure of the Word of God is expressed right here "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63), but you pour out your thoughts instead of the Word of God.

Here is more Word of God showing we Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Believe the Word of God!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Hi Twistie,

You preach that you free-will choose Jesus, but now you wrote "I know He got me I know He guides me in Truth n I know His voice"; in other words, you have contradictory belief which is a state of confusion, so read this God is not a god of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You opened with "I see what you r doing seems you got a keep trying to get people to believe you", yet Lord Jesus Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to proclaim the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) who is the very Word of God by quotation and citation again and again and again. God has me here proclaiming God's thoughts as revealed in the Word of God.

For 13 posts, as of your post #62, you've not quoted nor cited the Word of God, so the degree of value for you about the Word of God is plainly visible.

Granted, you just wrote "His ways are not like ours" in your post #62, but your words lack the intense veracity of that which is the Word of God "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares YHWH. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9). You muted and oversimplified and arguably adulterated the Word of God in your "free-will".

The immeasurable treasure of the Word of God is expressed right here "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63), but you pour out your thoughts instead of the Word of God.

Here is more Word of God showing we Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Believe the Word of God!

Love,
Kermos

All you do is repeat the same lines over n over that is why we r told that man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God

You speak half truths tell half stories like the false preachers like a weekend gatherer that has been smitten by the words of man..
It is written that this would happen.

You want a weak mushy god I'm cool with the True Living God He is righteous in His Judgement for His name sake not one feelings..

I hope ya encounter the Truth one day..

♡⁠(⁠>⁠ ⁠ਊ⁠ ⁠<⁠)⁠♡

 

[bdavidc]

Then, bdavidc, you believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

God Almighty is all mighty, so Almighty God's atonement never fails; in contrast, free-willian's people like Nancy result in free-willians believing that God is weak because Christ's atonement failed to atone for Nancy.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

You are trying to stuff your words into Christ’s mouth by writing "He was speaking to His apostles about their appointment to go and bear fruit, not about limiting His atonement".

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

Kermos, you have a perverse view of things. You say if a person rejects Christ then His atonement “failed.” Rubbish. The Scripture never says Christ’s blood failed, but (open your eyes and see this) the sinner refused. John 3: 18 is clear, “He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already.” The problem is not with Christ but in unbelief. God provided, man spurned the provision. That is not the failure of Christ’s work but the guilt of the sinner.

1 John 2: 2 says, “And the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” You try to redefine “whole world” to “only the ones He chose” but that is not what it says. John used the same phrase a chapter earlier, “the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19). That clearly would mean every sinner without exception not some special group. You cannot interpret the same phrase in the same letter differently to suit your system.

Yes Christ’s atonement was perfect. Hebrews 10: 14 says, “By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” But the very same passage also teaches many will perish “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). If His atonement were not sufficient for them then how could they reject it? It is not a weak Jesus but stubborn rebellion.

Jesus when He said, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” (John 15: 16), was talking to His apostles about their work, not narrowing down who can be saved. The same Gospel had already said, “whosoever believeth” (John 3:16). Whosoever means whosoever. If you whittle that down to “only the ones already picked” you are not reading Scripture, you are cramming your system down into it.

The truth is plain. Christ’s atonement never fails to effect the salvation of those who believe. The ones who perish are those who are condemned by their own unbelief, not because the blood was not sufficient. You are perverting Scripture rather than reading it as God meant it to be understood.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The problem is not with Christ but in unbelief. God provided, man spurned the provision. That is not the failure of Christ’s work but the guilt of the sinner.

The problem brother is that this statement of yours, requires one to have free-will. He (Kermos), does not believe in it, and so to him, man's acceptance/rejection has been determined for him by God. I do not think he believes God was able to work in free-will into Atonement for belief to be a consideration, again without God making it so.

Sorry brother for intruding in your convo with him. It was a thought running around in my head. Apologies for being out of order.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. Which makes me wonder if he sees Atonement not for what man did wrong, but for rather what God created him to do. If he sees it as valid at all. k

 

[Kermos]

I am glad to hear what you have written.

Dear Christ4Ever,

Get ready because your comprehensive response deserves this attentive comprehensive response.

Why stoicism, because you have made God a puppet master, that rather than have His creation seek Him voluntarily, they must be willed to do so.

You wrote "puppet master" in contrast to "Potter" of whom the Apostle Paul wrote:

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the Molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)
​

So, faithful, glorious, and loving Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into (Romans 9:19-23)

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault you have made God a puppet master? For who among puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free-will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)
​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in (Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in (Romans 9:20) showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Not a voluntary action of love and devotion, which your own is a joy to know that you have shared with me, but what I fear to say is false to you though true to God by your own reckoning because it is only a by-product of a creation that had no choice in it.

I did enjoy my breakfast, thank-you.

You specifically mentioned "love", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true love.

We children of God love by God’s working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), notice “even as I have loved you” which is God's true love.

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7), see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love.

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16), see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love” and aligns with Jesus' Godly true love (John 13:34).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You think it makes sense about "Obedience" but it does not. You needed to include Phil 2:16.

We need to review your rebuttal verse:

holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain
(Philippians 2:16)
​

Now, one accomplishes the holding fast the word of life by Way (John 14:6) of Almighty God for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

The very act itself requires one to be able to choose not to, even if Spirit filled,

Obedience does not mean human choice.

Obedience does mean "The quality or condition of being obedient" and "compliance" (Obedience definition at The Free Dictionary).

To achieve your stated goal, you must augment the word obedience with the word choose, as in "choose obedience".

Hunan obedience is attributed to God as per Philippians 2:13.

Do you really want to steal that which is God's?

as it was with Jesus.

Lord Jesus says "He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him" (John 8:29), and since God’s pleasure is in God's will, then Christ's will always does God's will.

There is no "choose" in what Jesus says as recorded in John 8:29, just "do".

You read it differently than I do that Jesus never had a choice and as the Son of God would have known this and made the conversation unnecessary to have in the first place.

The conversation was necessary because Jesus had the conversation.

Your "Jesus never had a choice and as the Son of God would have known this and made the conversation unnecessary to have in the first place" is you being a micromanager.

We are at a loggerhead brother. You believe in predestination with no free-will, while I believe in predestination with free-will. I believe this because predestination requires foreknowledge (Romans 8:29), and foreknowledge does not preclude free-will from being given to His creation. You can show that God has awareness and purpose, omniscience, but not necessarily that He causes it to be so or excludes free-will in choosing.

All that God knows will happen, even from before the foundation of the world, will certainly come to pass. Man cannot avoid that which God knows will occur.

Otherwise, if He causes it all to happen as He wills, then the guilt of man's actions is not man's but His. i.e. Jesus being crucified by wicked men which was predetermined, and purposeful. So, certainty of action, does not mean compulsion by God of humanities actions, just foreknowledge of them that they would. Ensuring that God does not micromanage everything, but His will still gets done. If not you, then He'd get someone else.

Please pay attention to the Apostle's application of Your Hand illuminating God's intimate control of humanity:

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,

And the peoples devise futile things?

'The kings of the earth took their stand,

And the rulers were gathered together

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."
(Acts 4:24-30 (NASB1995) - the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)
​

Look carefully, for the Assembly of God unison prayer to God includes Pontius Pilate to do whatever Your Hand predestined to occur. That is a specific person under the direct influence of the Lord God Almighty to murder the innocent Son of Man.

The Lord God Almighty lovingly sent the Son of God to redeem God's chosen persons. God is love.

The Lord God Almighty is always good:

No one is good except God alone
(Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18 (NASB1995)).
​

The Lord God Almighty establishes which of man perceive God:

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25 (NASB1995)).
​

The Lord God Almighty declares the Sovereignty of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3 (NASB1995)) for The Lord God Almighty alone is Savior of the world.

The Lord God Almighty had the Apostle Peter declare God's preservation of God's chosen persons as well as self-willed persons punishment, all the declaration showing the Power of God:

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
(2 Peter 2:9-10 (NASB1995)).
​

The Lord God Almighty graciously imparts belief into God's chosen persons according to God's good will “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29 (NASB1995)).

The Lord God Almighty declares man is accountable to God:

I tell you that every careless word that men speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 12:36 (NASB1995))
​

The Lord God Almighty declares to man his thoughts:

behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
(Amos 4:13 (NASB1995))
​

The Lord God Almighty conveyed through the Apostle Paul of people who exalt the creature (think free-will) above the Grand Creator:

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11 (NASB1995)).
​

The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:

"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13 (NASB1995)).
​

The Lord God Almighty is glorified with “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21 (NASB1995)).

The unearned love of God is described here “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).

He is no respecter of persons.

You believe God is no respecter of man, but you believe God is a respecter of men because God gives credence to man's free-will.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being no Respecter of men.

My God is awesome whereby He allows for free-will to exist while still having His purpose, will to be done.

Your statement sits upon sand for it's foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) because no Word of God states man was imparted free-will by God.

While you believe that His will precludes free-will from existing.

I know that no Word of God states man was imparted free-will by God.

One can think of the story of Joseph and what happened to him by his brothers. With no free-will his brothers did evil was intended to be done by God's will, vs the brothers free-will which was an evil action against Joseph, and God's purpose was to having good come of it. Your way would have God being the cause of sin, for His purpose to be fulfilled and

Which man was not created by God? Which man is not a sinner?

God is always good, in all that God wills and does, God is good.

we know through James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

The Tradition Man Created Teaching That Man Is Good - An Open Conspiracy​

Free-willian philosophers base their "man is inherently good" philosophy on Bible passages such as:

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13)
​

In the following, it is imperative to remember that Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God. This means Jesus is good because He says "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18), so Christ alone is the exception to when I write all people and such.

Man starts initially as evil, self-willed for the Apostle gives no exception for a person starting otherwise in life with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Here are the relevant spiritual points about James 1:13 that are together a cohesive unit proving the deception of the free-willian way:

• free-will is not contained therein, so James 1:13 is not a proof text for free-will.
• self-will is not mentioned therein. James 1:13 does not indicate "God does not given any man self-will".
• the audience for James' letter is people who are in Christ; in other words, people that are saved (James 1:1-2, James 2:1). The audience constrains the meaning of "anyone" in James 1:13 to exclusively the people of the faith, so James is not addressing the faithless in James 1:13.
• it is written "YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5), so God does not tempt people, but God does test people.
• it is written "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth" (Psalm 58:3), so all, and I mean every person except Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), all people start off as evil, fleshly, self-willed persons for there is no exception indicated anywhere in Scripture.
• it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9), so man is evil and self-willed in his deceitful heart from birth without exception - man is created in the flesh, evil, and self-willed.
• the Apostle Paul wrote
  
  
  you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved (Ephesians 2:1-5)
  ​
  So, everyone in the Assembly of God formerly were self-willed people; therefore, everyone starts out in life with a self-will because all of the unsaved people are self-willed.
• thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20), so every self-willed person goes to hell for practicing lawlessness because of the person's own doing of sin (crimes against God) - their sin is accounted to them yet no self-willed person can escape being self-willed of their own initiative for the Word of God says "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

And here we have the Truth Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

I must ask you then which God is greater. The one who does not allow for free-will and causes evil/sin to happen or the one who allows for free-will and is able to have His will done anyway in spite of the evil/sin of man?

So, are you saying that you and I do not worship the same God named Jesus?

In answer to your question, I would not say "does not allow for free-will", but I do say no Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will by God. The Sovereign God is.

"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! Deuteronomy 30:19 NLT

Moses states not that God imparted man with the ability to choose God, not even a command to choose God:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
(Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NASB1995))
​

Take note, Moses referred to choosing living in the land, not choosing God; furthermore, the people failed to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments
(Deuteronomy 30:16 (NASB1995), see also “where the LORD your God has banished you in Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB1995)) - no one can succeed apart from Christ (John 15:5) - God redeems by the only Way (John 14:6) which is the Blood of Jesus the Lord who died on the cross then victoriously arose from the dead!

You're a micromanager aren't you?

I'm getting a little tired right now, or I'd go all night & morning!
It is as if one thought races to another, then another! I wonder even with being tired if I'll be able to get some sleep! Oh, well.
Thank-you for the discussion.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

No, Christ4Ever, I'm not a micromanager. Lord Jesus Christ not only manages me, but the Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14).

It takes prayer and differing time durations to respond.

I do love discussing the Word of God!

I anxiously await your response.

Love,
Kermos

 

[bdavidc]

The problem brother is that this statement of yours, requires one to have free-will. He (Kermos), does not believe in it, and so to him, man's acceptance/rejection has been determined for him by God. I do not think he believes God was able to work in free-will into Atonement for belief to be a consideration, again without God making it so.

Sorry brother for intruding in your convo with him. It was a thought running around in my head. Apologies for being out of order.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. Which makes me wonder if he sees Atonement not for what man did wrong, but for rather what God created him to do. If he sees it as valid at all. k

I don’t think man has free-will to get saved whenever he desires because salvation never comes on man’s terms. Salvation only happens when God calls, and our will is bound in sin so that left to ourselves we will never choose Christ (Romans 3:11, John 5:40). Salvation only happens when God draws a person by His Spirit and His Word (John 6:44). That is why the Scripture says, “Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts” (Hebrews 3:15). You cannot set the time and place of your salvation. God is the one who calls, and when He calls you must respond in repentance and faith or risk hardening your heart like Pharaoh, Felix, and Agrippa did.

We see this over and over in Scripture. Pharaoh had many opportunities given to him by God through Moses, and he hardened his heart time and time again until God gave him up (Exodus 9:12). King Agrippa heard Paul preach and said, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian” (Acts 26: 28), but “almost” was not good enough so he walked away. Felix trembled when Paul spoke of righteousness and judgment, and “Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee” (Acts 24:25), said Felix. That “convenient season” never came, and he got no further chance.

Contrast that with Lydia who heard Paul preach and “the Lord opened her heart” to believe (Acts 16:14). The jailer at Philippi cried out, “What must I do to be saved?” and believed then and there (Acts 16:30–31).

The point is this: the Bible is very simple on this matter. You cannot get saved just whenever you desire. Salvation comes only when God calls. When God calls, that is the time to respond in repentance and faith. If you refuse then you may never get another chance, but if you respond to God, then He saves you.

 

[Kermos]

Hello @Twistie @B-A-C @bdavidc @KingJ and @Christ4Ever

Free-willian Philosophy has two unfractureable foibles, listed in order of importance:

• No Word of God declares man was imparted a free-will by God, so free-will of man is an illusion developed by man.
• Logical examination dictates that free-will of man is illogical.

The six of us engaged in discourse about the first crucial point in this thread, in a direct manner.

Now, let's look at the second point in a direct manner.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Car and Tow Truck Analogy​

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

In contrast, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:13) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

Love,
Kermos

 

[KingJ]

Hello @Twistie @B-A-C @bdavidc @KingJ and @Christ4Ever

Free-willian Philosophy has two unfractureable foibles, listed in order of importance:

• No Word of God declares man was imparted a free-will by God, so free-will of man is an illusion developed by man.
• Logical examination dictates that free-will of man is illogical.

The six of us engaged in discourse about the first crucial point in this thread, in a direct manner.

Now, let's look at the second point in a direct manner.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Car and Tow Truck Analogy​

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

In contrast, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:13) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

Love,
Kermos

You are tiresome. You are keeping your mind in a box for who knows what reason. You have been given 13 scriptures stating that God is impartial and gives us true free will, you have been given ten clearly showing that Jesus had free will.

Are these scriptures and pages torn from your bible?

-----------------------

When you cherry pick scripture you are doing exactly what the devil did to Jesus in Matt 4.

Usually cherry picking scripture is done innocently and does not incriminate God as evil. In your case however, it grossly misrepresents Him as partial and unjust.

You should keep quiet and do more research. Get a new bible that includes the pages you have removed.

As....the need to fear God is real! Misrepresenting Him as monstrously evil is not something you want on your rap sheet when you stand before Him one day.

I remind you to heed the warning in Matt 18:6. Teaching that God is partial / there is no true free will, will stumble the young and weak!

Matt 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[Kermos]

You are tiresome. You are keeping your mind in a box for who knows what reason. You have been given 13 scriptures stating that God is impartial and gives us true free will, you have been given ten clearly showing that Jesus had free will.

Are these scriptures and pages torn from your bible?

-----------------------

When you cherry pick scripture you are doing exactly what the devil did to Jesus in Matt 4.

Usually cherry picking scripture is done innocently and does not incriminate God as evil. In your case however, it grossly misrepresents Him as partial and unjust.

You should keep quiet and do more research. Get a new bible that includes the pages you have removed.

As....the need to fear God is real! Misrepresenting Him as monstrously evil is not something you want on your rap sheet when you stand before Him one day.

I remind you to heed the warning in Matt 18:6. Teaching that God is partial / there is no true free will, will stumble the young and weak!

Matt 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

KingJ, you keep saying God is partial to man because of man's free-will driving God thus you make God to be an unrighteous judge.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

In Truth (John 14:6), God the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11) impartiallly judges man.

Your free-will assertion about Jesus is against the Word of God.

Your free-will assertion about Jesus is against logic.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, you keep saying God is partial to man because of man's free-will driving God thus you make God to be an unrighteous judge.

What the hell do you mean by this? Because X is 3, Y is 5 therefore we have two hippos on a cloud in Alaska.

Your maths is completely and utterly illogical.

Mans free will does not ''drive God''. God gave us high intelligence Heb 2:7 and a conscience Gen 3:22, this is why we will all be judged.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

You are reaching and using that verse to support an argument that it was not meant to.

Man changes his mind all the time, agreed. But there is a decision that we make from the heart to lay our loves down for the Lord. This carries weight with God. Shown in these scriptures - Psalm 51:17 (true repentance), James 1:27 (true servitude), Rev 2:10 (martyrdom).

Jer 17:9-11 is clear that God judges the depths of our hearts and minds as only He can.

In Truth (John 14:6), God the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11) impartiallly judges man.

Yes, He is impartial. To be impartial, all have to have free will. You are twisting the meaning of the word to hide an action of partiality. Namely cherry picking some for heaven and some for hell.

Your free-will assertion about Jesus is against the Word of God.

I gave you 10 scriptures, where is your rebuttal?

Your free-will assertion about Jesus is against logic.

I agree. It is logical for a human brain to see God as both good and evil as both exist. It is also logical to see God as partial as He is truly omniscient.

This is why a Christian's job is so important. Scripture does not support either of these assertions. Scripture is clear that God is good and impartial. Good Psalm 136:1. Righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. And please reread the 13 scriptures I gave you on Him being impartial / not showing favouritism.

God chooses to be as good as He is great.

------------------------

If we are intellectually honest, we would concede to the fact that we cannot grasp God. You and I have absolutely no clue how He came to be. Absolutely zippo, zero, nudda. Fact!

We must therefore be very careful and ensure that we keep 100% to scripture. And, as I have already stated a few times, especially on matters that clearly grossly misrepresent Him!!!!!!!

Fear God = wise = Christianity 101!!!!

-----------------------

If scripture teaches us that God is impartial, you don't teach that He is partial!! As simple as that!

 

[Twistie]

Hello @Twistie @B-A-C @bdavidc @KingJ and @Christ4Ever

Free-willian Philosophy has two unfractureable foibles, listed in order of importance:

• No Word of God declares man was imparted a free-will by God, so free-will of man is an illusion developed by man.
• Logical examination dictates that free-will of man is illogical.

The six of us engaged in discourse about the first crucial point in this thread, in a direct manner.

Now, let's look at the second point in a direct manner.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Car and Tow Truck Analogy​

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

In contrast, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:13) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

Love,
Kermos

You make absolutely no sense no free will yet there is judgement.. perhaps the god you know isn't powerful enough and needy and needs to force things to love him idk like I said you worship your god I'm all good with mine cause that's all He is All good no darkness n He is right in all His judgement He doesn't got a force things n creatures to Love Him He is not needy like your god..
We are no
With that said you got a desire to get me n others off track to worship a mushy god that you have come to love and worship my God don't need His children to convince people..
We don't worship the same god I hope you encounter the True Living God
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
ᕦ⁠⊙⁠෴⁠⊙⁠ᕤ

 

[Kermos]

What the hell do you mean by this? Because X is 3, Y is 5 therefore we have two hippos on a cloud in Alaska.

Your maths is completely and utterly illogical.

Mans free will does not ''drive God''. God gave us high intelligence Heb 2:7 and a conscience Gen 3:22, this is why we will all be judged.

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will by God, so you adulterate the Word of God to include your "free-will" where free-will does not exist, and this is a provable fact because free-will exists not in these citations of yours as proof of free-will:

​

You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,​

(Hebrews 2:7)​

​

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “—​

(Genesis 3:22)​

​

Behold, no free-will in Hebrews 2:7 nor Genesis 3:22.

God creating the mind (intelligence) is not the same as God creating free-will.

You are reaching and using that verse to support an argument that it was not meant to.

So, now, you think that you can speak for God, and you can just wipe away "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18) which God includes in the Holy Scripture! You have exalted yourself above God.

Man changes his mind all the time, agreed. But there is a decision that we make from the heart to lay our loves down for the Lord.

You specifically mentioned "love", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true love.

We children of God love by God’s working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), notice “even as I have loved you” which is God's true love.

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7), see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love.

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16), see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love” and aligns with Jesus' Godly true love (John 13:34).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

This carries weight with God. Shown in these scriptures - Psalm 51:17 (true repentance),

You specifically mentioned "repentance", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true repentance.

The Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And, the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward); in other words, Christ's love controls true repentance in man (2 Corinthians 5:14).

James 1:27 (true servitude), Rev 2:10 (martyrdom).

You specifically mentioned "servitude", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of such work.

We believers in Christ have fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

And, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11).

SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God.

Jer 17:9-11 is clear that God judges the depths of our hearts and minds as only He can.

Jeremiah 17:9-11 records an expression of the Sovereignty of God. No free-will of man, therein.

Take note of As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid, So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly;
In the midst of his days it will forsake him, And in the end he will be a fool (Jeremiah 17:11) which is an expression that includes your "fortune" that is your fleshly "free-will choosing of God".

Yes, He is impartial. To be impartial, all have to have free will.

You add free-will to Holy Scripture, so your conclusion is error laden.

You are twisting the meaning of the word to hide an action of partiality. Namely cherry picking some for heaven and some for hell.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

People falsely accused my Lord Jesus of being of the devil, and Christ says people like you would do the same to me.

I gave you 10 scriptures, where is your rebuttal?

Look at the first section of this post.

I agree. It is logical for a human brain to see God as both good and evil as both exist. It is also logical to see God as partial as He is truly omniscient.

This is why a Christian's job is so important. Scripture does not support either of these assertions. Scripture is clear that God is good and impartial. Good Psalm 136:1. Righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. And please reread the 13 scriptures I gave you on Him being impartial / not showing favouritism.

One either believes the Christ of us Christians who says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18 (NASB1995)) or one does not believe Christ.

Evil man sees God as partial. You see God as partial because you believe that God, the Righteous Judge, gives credence to man free-will choosing God, which is, by definition, God being partial to whatever man; furthermore, your Free-willian Philosophy leads to Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being impartial to man; furthermore, I believe in Christ's finished atonement as outlined in the original post.

God chooses to be as good as He is great.

You say God chooses to be good.

Christ says God is good.

Your "God chooses" is out of accord with Christ's "God is".

------------------------

If we are intellectually honest, we would concede to the fact that we cannot grasp God. You and I have absolutely no clue how He came to be. Absolutely zippo, zero, nudda. Fact!

We must therefore be very careful and ensure that we keep 100% to scripture. And, as I have already stated a few times, especially on matters that clearly grossly misrepresent Him!!!!!!!

Fear God = wise = Christianity 101!!!!

-----------------------

If scripture teaches us that God is impartial, you don't teach that He is partial!! As simple as that!

The fact is that you make out God to show favoritism (partiality/respect/pleasure) in man's fleshly free-will mind choosing God, yet "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

 

[Twistie]

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will by God, so you adulterate the Word of God to include your "free-will" where free-will does not exist, and this is a provable fact because free-will exists not in these citations of yours as proof of free-will:

​

You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,​

(Hebrews 2:7)​

​

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “—​

(Genesis 3:22)​

​

Behold, no free-will in Hebrews 2:7 nor Genesis 3:22.

God creating the mind (intelligence) is not the same as God creating free-will.



So, now, you think that you can speak for God, and you can just wipe away "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18) which God includes in the Holy Scripture! You have exalted yourself above God.



You specifically mentioned "love", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true love.

We children of God love by God’s working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), notice “even as I have loved you” which is God's true love.

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7), see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love.

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16), see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love” and aligns with Jesus' Godly true love (John 13:34).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.



You specifically mentioned "repentance", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true repentance.

The Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And, the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward); in other words, Christ's love controls true repentance in man (2 Corinthians 5:14).



You specifically mentioned "servitude", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of such work.

We believers in Christ have fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

And, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11).

SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God.



Jeremiah 17:9-11 records an expression of the Sovereignty of God. No free-will of man, therein.

Take note of As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid, So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly;
In the midst of his days it will forsake him, And in the end he will be a fool (Jeremiah 17:11) which is an expression that includes your "fortune" that is your fleshly "free-will choosing of God".



You add free-will to Holy Scripture, so your conclusion is error laden.



The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

People falsely accused my Lord Jesus of being of the devil, and Christ says people like you would do the same to me.



Look at the first section of this post.



One either believes the Christ of us Christians who says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18 (NASB1995)) or one does not believe Christ.

Evil man sees God as partial. You see God as partial because you believe that God, the Righteous Judge, gives credence to man free-will choosing God, which is, by definition, God being partial to whatever man; furthermore, your Free-willian Philosophy leads to Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being impartial to man; furthermore, I believe in Christ's finished atonement as outlined in the original post.



You say God chooses to be good.

Christ says God is good.

Your "God chooses" is out of accord with Christ's "God is".



The fact is that you make out God to show favoritism (partiality/respect/pleasure) in man's fleshly free-will mind choosing God, yet "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

And that is why He put a new heart why one must ne born again of the spirit n you are still in the flesh it's why your so stuck on what your stuck in lol imagine the Creator got a force Love lol
Y'all flesh born is funny creatures..
I surely hope you humble yourself to allow the Spirit of the Lord to show you just How powerful He is n He don't need to force nothing to Love Him for if He was gonna do so then the Angels never would of been able to seek their will over His..

Sure hope you encounter the Living God tho..

ᕙ⁠[⁠･⁠۝･⁠]⁠ᕗ

 

[bdavidc]

Hello @Twistie @B-A-C @bdavidc @KingJ and @Christ4Ever

Free-willian Philosophy has two unfractureable foibles, listed in order of importance:

• No Word of God declares man was imparted a free-will by God, so free-will of man is an illusion developed by man.
• Logical examination dictates that free-will of man is illogical.

The six of us engaged in discourse about the first crucial point in this thread, in a direct manner.

Now, let's look at the second point in a direct manner.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Car and Tow Truck Analogy​

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

In contrast, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:13) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

Love,
Kermos

The Bible never speaks of man as having some separate and independent “free-will.” Rather, it shows us the two possible conditions of the heart: enslaved to sin or made alive and empowered by God. Jesus said plainly, “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). That means the natural man is not free, he is bound to his self-will, which Scripture calls corruption and rebellion (2 Peter 2:10, Titus 3:3). Paul also wrote, “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). That doesn’t sound like an independent, detached will, it sounds like bondage.

On the other hand, Scripture shows that when God saves a man, it is He who changes the will. Philippians 2: 13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” That is the exact opposite of man in his own strength somehow detaching from God and making some neutral choice. Instead, salvation is God’s work on the inside that produces both the willing and the doing.

So the terminology of “free-will” is not only absent from the Bible, it is misleading. The Bible uses terms like “self-will” (2 Peter 2: 10) to describe the ungodly, and it speaks of being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14) to describe the saved. Man is always driven, either by his corrupt self-will that ends in destruction, or by the Spirit of God that leads to life. There is no detached middle ground. That is why using “free-will” as though man could ever be separate from God’s sovereign working or from his own sinful nature is nonsense. The truth of Scripture is clear: salvation is of the Lord, and damnation is of man’s self-will.

 

[Twistie]

The Bible never speaks of man as having some separate and independent “free-will.” Rather, it shows us the two possible conditions of the heart: enslaved to sin or made alive and empowered by God. Jesus said plainly, “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). That means the natural man is not free, he is bound to his self-will, which Scripture calls corruption and rebellion (2 Peter 2:10, Titus 3:3). Paul also wrote, “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). That doesn’t sound like an independent, detached will, it sounds like bondage.

On the other hand, Scripture shows that when God saves a man, it is He who changes the will. Philippians 2: 13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” That is the exact opposite of man in his own strength somehow detaching from God and making some neutral choice. Instead, salvation is God’s work on the inside that produces both the willing and the doing.

So the terminology of “free-will” is not only absent from the Bible, it is misleading. The Bible uses terms like “self-will” (2 Peter 2: 10) to describe the ungodly, and it speaks of being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14) to describe the saved. Man is always driven, either by his corrupt self-will that ends in destruction, or by the Spirit of God that leads to life. There is no detached middle ground. That is why using “free-will” as though man could ever be separate from God’s sovereign working or from his own sinful nature is nonsense. The truth of Scripture is clear: salvation is of the Lord, and damnation is of man’s self-will.

May I ask.. do you believe it's man that chooses which? Or do you believe the Almighty forces himself upon people?

Im not looking for a whole bunch of words just your thoughts please .

K thanks!

(⁠θ⁠‿⁠θ⁠)