Why people believe they love ones, looking down on them smiling

[BroTan]

Paul said in Acts 13: 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Now David is a man after God own heart, this is very important, because it bring us to the next verse....lets go to Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

David would of definitely been in heaven where the Lord is if that was the case, but we know all the dead is in the ground. Now Jesus said in John 6: 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus said this four times for a reason. Once we know what is in the Bible, then we can't turn to or own beliefs.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema teaches:

I do not. Period. This is a perfect example of your inability to think well.

 

[Rhema]

People are "dead" (body) regardless of location.

I understand that you believe the fantasy of splitting people into a physical body and an immortal soul that has individuated conscious sentience and awareness which LIVES on after death. But the dead are dead-dead, as the scriptures @BroTan quoted literally describe. If the consciousness is aware somewhere after the "body" is dead, then God IS the God of the dead people (living somewhere else).

Anything that is conscious is by definition alive. Most all Christians teach a fantasy that cannot be found in the scriptures, namely that while a person's body may be dead, their individuated conscious sentience (the person) is still alive (somewhere). If a dead person is still conscious somewhere, then God is the God of the Dead.

But the scriptures (OT) teach that the body returns (is subsumed) back into dust and the spirit "returns" (is subsumed) back into God, and no longer exists as a conscious sentience (an individuated person) until some point in the future when the Resurrection occurs.

People do not stop existing after physical death.

Yes they do.

A person is the joining together of dust (physical body) and a "spirit" that is breathed by God. (Do we really Need to read Genesis again?) Death splits these two elements apart, and hence the person no longer exists. Dust returns to dust and Spirit returns to God.

But just where are these dead people existing? These people that are dead? And if they are existing somewhere, is God not their God? But Jesus clearly said that God is not the God of the dead, so dead people don't exist anywhere. Period.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.​

- Matthew 22:31-32 KJV

The dead must be resurrected before they can live again.

God has a LOT of names and titles far more important.

None of which state that God is the God of some underworld where dead people live. It's just absurd to even say that dead people live somewhere.

Rhema

(You're always welcome to post scripture that proves otherwise. And I would encourage you to do so, but you won't find any. If you did, you'd have already posted it to put me in my place. Good luck with that.)

 

[Rhema]

Jews are not Christian.

The OT does not say one thing to Jews, and another thing to Christians. Or do you believe that scripture can be broken?

The OT says what it says, and @BroTan quoted what it says.

You (I am shocked to find out) dismiss the OT in favor of some Roman Catholic Mythology of dead people being alive somewhere. Have I misunderstood?

Rhema

(You're always welcome to post scripture that proves otherwise. And I would encourage you to do so, but you won't find any. If you did, you'd have already posted it to put me in my place. Good luck with that.)

 

[Rhema]

I just like Saint Luke chapter 16 in it's entirety because Christ tells it plainly. Heaven. Hell.

It's a parable, Gothedral, not a scientific lecture on cosmology and the physics of the universe. And I would suggest that you look again, since the word Heaven is not even written in that part of Luke 16.

Christ told the Thief on the cross he would be with Him in Paradise. You know, fully conscious and in comfort and still desirous for everyone to do the right things and accept Jesus Christ as their Redeemer.

This too is a parable. I find it incredible that someone would believe that when Jesus died he went to Paradise.

Now do you believe that Abraham's Bosom is also Paradise and also heaven even? That's leaping to a lot of conclusions here. Jesus did not ascend into heaven until Acts chapter one.

I recall one thread where this had been discussed, and no one could provide any scripture that said people go to heaven when they die (be my guest if you can). There was one viewpoint that said Abraham's Bosom was part of hell, but the "nice" part of hell where saved people go when they die. This was based on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31.

But the reason that one may know Luke 16 is a parable is this verse -

(Psalms 6:5 KJV) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in Sheol (or the grave) who shall give thee thanks?

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Christ told the Thief on the cross he would be with Him in Paradise. You know, fully conscious and in comfort and still desirous for everyone to do the right things and accept Jesus Christ as their Redeemer.

This too is a parable. I find it incredible that someone would believe that when Jesus died he went to Paradise.

What the living hell? What Jesus said on the cross to the guy next to Him is a parable????? OMW dude.

That point in your life where you need to realise that you have to read scripture like a one year old in order to uphold your pet theory.

Incredible. I have never read something so absurd before in my life. You truly take the cake.

Rhema teaches:

I do not. Period. This is a perfect example of your inability to think well.

Dude, really, I need to remind myself that this is more of a comedy site when discussing with you.

Later when I literally have nothing to do, I will go and copy paste the times you have said those lines as I am eager to see your reply. I will be sure to get some popcorn!!

 

[Jesua888]

Luke 15:6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Angels are not omniscient enough to know what is happening on Earth. Only God knows these things.
Who dwells in the presence of angels? Angels are in God's presence. Born-again believers who have physically died are in the presence of
God and angels. How can they (born-again believers in Heaven) "rejoice" over a sinner who repents unless they know what is happening on Earth?

Hi Curtis, do you have any scripture that you could share, that backs up:
"Born-again believers who have physically died are in the presence of
God and angels. How can they (born-again believers in Heaven) "rejoice" over a sinner who repents unless they know what is happening on Earth?" Thanks Linda

 

[Garee]

In the scriptures it's written in Isaiah 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. These the tools I use also, let me show you that God's word is contained in a book. This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success". (Joshua 1:8) "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read". (Isaiah 34:16)

Yes, it is the Spirit of Christ that indwells born again believers that teaches each one.

Having begun the teaching work, he will work with us till the end. (Philippian 1:6)

In the scriptures it's written in Isaiah 28: 9 mankind must rightfully divide the living word. Comparing as a parable. . which without a parables Christ spoke not line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[Gothedral]

Hi Curtis, do you have any scripture that you could share, that backs up:
"Born-again believers who have physically died are in the presence of
God and angels. How can they (born-again believers in Heaven) "rejoice" over a sinner who repents unless they know what is happening on Earth?" Thanks Linda

Hi I posted this in the previous page, Saint Luke chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 where Christ (The Truth) teaches the nature of the afterlife, and that both sides know what is happening on Earth.

 

[Jesua888]

Hi I posted this in the previous page, Saint Luke chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 where Christ (The Truth) teaches the nature of the afterlife, and that both sides know what is happening on Earth.

Thank you : )

 

[Garee]

I just like Saint Luke chapter 16 in it's entirety because Christ tells it plainly. Heaven. Hell. The people there and the nature of these places in contrast to mortal life on this Earth. The importance of the OT and NT being inseparable as we have it. The Way, the Truth, the Life

What do you think the separation called the old and new represents as a parable and why is it necessary to have a division ?

I would offer. It was displayed on Mount Sinah using the word "two" in order to represent one God not seen has spoken. Similar to the coin parable. Hiding the things of God a invisible God that hides. Unbelievers can see Caesar. . . . believers both sides.

Mark 12:15-17Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.;And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.;And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Two tables hewn by the hand of God written on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind. Called the letter of the law "death" (Romans 7:6) the bible the book of law (thou shall not)

Coming down from Mount Sinah it exposed the oral traditions which Aaron approved of causing death.

The first set of tables destroyed to show death. Then Moses was used to hewn out two new tables and again the finger of God wrote on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind

Two represents one God has spoken. Three is a crowd, three in parables represents the end of the matter.

The dynamic dual. God not seen demonstrating his power by the historical things seen through the Son of man Jesus . Christ's apostle prophet

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of (one) testimony, tables (two) of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exodus 32:15-16;And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the (one) testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. (two)

Deuteronomy 9:9-11When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the (one) covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the (one) covenant.

Two would seem to support the law of faith. . the unseen things, the two-fold work of one . "Let there be power" and" it was the good creative testimony of Christ.

To the law as it is written by the finger of Christ and to his testimony the prophets.(sola scriptura) . which without Christ spoke not.

Law and the prophets. The living abiding word of our Holy Father

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.(sola scriptura)

Luke 16:16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.(sola scriptura)

The next of the three usages uses in that parable (Luke16) with three denoting the end of the matter he uses Moses the law giver to represent
the law. And its testimony the things seen

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (sola scriptura)

In Mathew Christ uses Moses to represent the letter of the law death and Elias as the testimony of new- born again life.

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.(sola scriptura)

John the Baptist the middleman to represent testimony of the power of the Holy Spirit that worked in Elias as it works in all sons of God

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[Curtis]

Hi Curtis, do you have any scripture that you could share, that backs up:
"Born-again believers who have physically died are in the presence of
God and angels. How can they (born-again believers in Heaven) "rejoice" over a sinner who repents unless they know what is happening on Earth?" Thanks Linda

2Co 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
2Co 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Death is the results of your spirit leaving your body. Your body goes into the ground your spirit goes to be with the Lord if you are born again.

 

[KingJ]

do you have any scripture that you could share, that backs up:
"Born-again believers who have physically died are in the presence of
God and angels.

Just to add to 2 Cor 5 that @Curtis gave you, we also have:

1. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).

2. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

This passage is crystal clear that as a Christian you have a resident passport to heaven. When you die, you can use that passport.

3. Phil 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Paul could not be clearer. He only sees A. Serving on earth or B. Being with Jesus in heaven. He does not see and mention a C. Sleeping in a coffin.

----------------------

Then, we can also just use common sense. God of the universe died for you, why would He wait to see you?

----------------------

We do have a controversial set of passages about the 'dead in Christ' and 'many in the grave'. But I feel these deserve to be properly discussed in their own thread. A thorough bible study is required to grasp their correct context. Some, like our resident annihilationists would rather cherry pick these verses and teach the lost that God is not eager to see you, ignoring all conflicting scripture. This link is a good read on 1 Thess 4:16 - Who are the dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? | GotQuestions.org.

 

[BroTan]

Yes, it is the Spirit of Christ that indwells born again believers that teaches each one.

Having begun the teaching work, he will work with us till the end. (Philippian 1:6)

In the scriptures it's written in Isaiah 28: 9 mankind must rightfully divide the living word. Comparing as a parable. . which without a parables Christ spoke not line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Paul did say being renewed in the mind. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (Colossians 3: 8-14).

 

[BroTan]

Jesus also says in John 5: 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Rhema]

What the living hell?

I'm not surprised that you need to curse. It comes from your heart (as Jesus taught).

What Jesus said on the cross to the guy next to Him is a parable?????

It's a spiritual story that Luke added to his narrative - to teach a spiritual lesson. You actually believe that a rational conversation could take place between three people being tortured? With two of them about twenty four feet apart? Go get a friend, stand twenty four feet apart, then crucify yourselves with Roman soldiers whose duty it is to ensure that you suffer, and then try to have any meaningful conversation with a mob mocking you all the time.

Luke wasn't an Apostle. Not even a disciple. He never met Jesus. He never walked with Jesus. He wasn't present at the crucifixion.

Now take the narrative from Matthew, an apostle who did know Jesus, who did walk with Jesus:

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, ... The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.​

- Matthew 27:38-39, 44 KJV

The λῃστης mocked Jesus, plural, BOTH of them. Period.

But you're quite right. I didn't mean to imply that this was a parable of Jesus. It was a Spiritual Lesson presented by Luke. And it's also likely that the parable of the dead beggar and rich man was also not a parable of Jesus, but a Spiritual Lesson presented by Luke. BOTH of these stories have no second witness, and both of these stories use odd vocabulary not commonly found in the New Testament texts.

That point in your life where you need to realise that you have to read scripture like a one year old in order to uphold your pet theory.

Thank you for the compliment. And I seriously mean that.

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.​

- Matthew 19:14 KJV

But this is not a pet theory, anymore than the absurd desire to read everything as literal. Next you'll be telling me that Jesus sweated actual Great Drops of Blood (again, something found in Luke only). You should really study that. You might learn something.

I will go and copy paste the times you have said those lines as I am eager to see your reply.

(Whatever "those lines" might be.)

Start a new thread and let me know about it. The only thing you will find is your own bizarre misinterpretation of whatever point I was trying to make. You continuously mangle things up inside your head so badly that it's impossible to straighten out your thoughts about what I believe.

Incredible. I have never read something so absurd before in my life. You truly take the cake.

Well, having an emotional hissy fit like this is the only response one can make when one has no rational rebuttal. I wonder how many meltdowns you have in those debates with "atheists" that you brag about so often.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Hi I posted this in the previous page, Saint Luke chapter 16 verses 19 through 31 where Christ (The Truth) teaches the nature of the afterlife, and that both sides know what is happening on Earth.

Didn't Christ (The Truth) teach at times using metaphors (parables)?

What then is Abraham's Bosom?

It's obvious you think this passage in Luke is literal science (specifically cosmology) so... prove to me from scripture (or even from other sources) that Abraham's Bosom is not a metaphor.

Thanks,
Rhema

Wait a second... did you even read any of the posts by @BroTan? - and I mean the SCRIPTURE that he posted to provide support of his views. What about them? Should we run 'em through the shredder? Just ignore them? Use New Testament "scripture" to reject the Old?

Seriously, what's up with that?

 

[Rhema]

Death is the results of your spirit leaving your body. Your body goes into the ground your spirit goes to be with the Lord if you are born again.

Death is the result of your body dying (the physical and biological processes break down and stop).

Indeed the body does return to dust, and the Spirit returns to God, but a living sentient conscious person no longer exists. By OT definition, a person (soul) requires body body and spirit.

The person no longer exists, and will not exist until the Resurrection.

And you too.... did you even read any of the SCRIPTURE posted by @BroTan to provide support of his views? What about them? Should we run 'em through the shredder? Just ignore them? Use New Testament "scripture" to reject the Old?

Seriously, what's up with that Curtis?

Agape,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Jesus also says in John 5: 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

While I truly appreciate the sentiment, it's quite easy for people to spiritualize this verse away, since the hour "now is."

Now doesn't mean more than two thousand years in the future.

The missing verses (26 & 27) can at least provide some separation between the spiritually dead in verse 25 and the rest of all dead-dead people in 28 and 29.

Peace,
Rhema

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

- John 5:25-29 KJV

 

[KingJ]

I'm not surprised that you need to curse. It comes from your heart (as Jesus taught).


It's a spiritual story that Luke added to his narrative - to teach a spiritual lesson. You actually believe that a rational conversation could take place between three people being tortured? With two of them about twenty four feet apart? Go get a friend, stand twenty four feet apart, then crucify yourselves with Roman soldiers whose duty it is to ensure that you suffer, and then try to have any meaningful conversation with a mob mocking you all the time.

Luke wasn't an Apostle. Not even a disciple. He never met Jesus. He never walked with Jesus. He wasn't present at the crucifixion.

Now take the narrative from Matthew, an apostle who did know Jesus, who did walk with Jesus:

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, ... The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.​

- Matthew 27:38-39, 44 KJV

The λῃστης mocked Jesus, plural, BOTH of them. Period.

But you're quite right. I didn't mean to imply that this was a parable of Jesus. It was a Spiritual Lesson presented by Luke. And it's also likely that the parable of the dead beggar and rich man was also not a parable of Jesus, but a Spiritual Lesson presented by Luke. BOTH of these stories have no second witness, and both of these stories use odd vocabulary not commonly found in the New Testament texts.


Thank you for the compliment. And I seriously mean that.

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.​

- Matthew 19:14 KJV

But this is not a pet theory, anymore than the absurd desire to read everything as literal. Next you'll be telling me that Jesus sweated actual Great Drops of Blood (again, something found in Luke only). You should really study that. You might learn something.


(Whatever "those lines" might be.)

Start a new thread and let me know about it. The only thing you will find is your own bizarre misinterpretation of whatever point I was trying to make. You continuously mangle things up inside your head so badly that it's impossible to straighten out your thoughts about what I believe.


Well, having an emotional hissy fit like this is the only response one can make when one has no rational rebuttal. I wonder how many meltdowns you have in those debates with "atheists" that you brag about so often.

God bless,
Rhema

Discussing with you is worse than with atheists. At least they own their beliefs. Your house is built on sand. Like literally the finest sand you can find in the entire galaxy.

As always, cringe and a complete waste of time and effort engaging with you.