The Tetragramoton

[Br. Bear]

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40

Then the King will answer, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.'
Matthew 25:45

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?
Acts 9:4

 

[Keithw]

Now you are in denial of scripture.
I posted verses from Zechariah 12 inj which YHWH specifically refers to him being seen by those who pierced him.
Answer the question - when was YHWH pierced ??

Jesus was pierced, YHWH wasnt.

 

[Waggles]

Jesus was pierced, YHWH wasnt.

Not according to Zechariah 12 - read the chapter carefully for it tells us that YHWH was pierced.

Zechariah 12:8 On that day YHWH will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of YHWH,
going before them.
9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns
for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

The entire chapter is YHWH speaking to Zechariah and referring to Himself YHWH - there is no change of person in verse 10.

 

[Keithw]

Not according to Zechariah 12 - read the chapter carefully for it tells us that YHWH was pierced.

Zechariah 12:8 On that day YHWH will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of YHWH,
going before them.
9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns
for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

The entire chapter is YHWH speaking to Zechariah and referring to Himself YHWH - there is no change of person in verse 10.

YHWH says him= Jesus. He would have said me, but he said him.

 

[Waggles]

YHWH says him= Jesus. He would have said me, but he said him.

Again you are simply in denial of scripture - you put dogma before truth

Zechariah 12:10 “And I [YHWH] will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me [YHWH], on him whom they have pierced,
they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
"on him" refers to YHWH - it is grammatically correct in continuing with the subject of the verse that is YHWH - there is no changeover to another person. Jesus is referring to himself as YHWH and as the Son of man crucified.
Luke 19:44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Jesus is YHWH with YHWH the Father
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
The OT clearly reveals two YHWH.
And you have been presented with a multitude of scriptures supporting this.

 

[Waggles]

Genesis 19:23 The sun has gone out on the earth, and Lot has entered into Zoar,
24 and YHWH has rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH, from the heavens;
25 and He overthrows these cities, and all the circuit, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which is shooting up from the ground.

 

[Waggles]

Genesis 18:1 And YHWH appears to him [Abraham] among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day;
2 and he lifts up his eyes and looks, and behold, three men standing by him, and he sees, and runs to meet them from the opening of the tent, and bows himself toward the earth,
we can already read here that YHWH comes down to Earth in the form of a man - exactly what YHWH did again in Jesus Christ

 

[Keithw]

Again you are simply in denial of scripture - you put dogma before truth

Zechariah 12:10 “And I [YHWH] will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me [YHWH], on him whom they have pierced,
they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
"on him" refers to YHWH - it is grammatically correct in continuing with the subject of the verse that is YHWH - there is no changeover to another person. Jesus is referring to himself as YHWH and as the Son of man crucified.
Luke 19:44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Jesus is YHWH with YHWH the Father
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
The OT clearly reveals two YHWH.
And you have been presented with a multitude of scriptures supporting this.

You are mistaken. Jesus is not YHWH, the Father is YHWH.

 

[Waggles]

You are mistaken. Jesus is not YHWH, the Father is YHWH.

No you are mistaken - because you do not read and believe what scripture openly teaches.

 

[Keithw]

No you are mistaken - because you do not read and believe what scripture openly teaches.

Best to believe Jesus--He tells all in the Lords prayer-Hallowed be thy ( Father) name=YHWH--- the only name that fits. So then do you believe Jesus is his own Father?

 

[Waggles]

the only name that fits. So then do you believe Jesus is his own Father?

You have learned nothing
Jesus - Y'shua - is WITH the Father -
and when YHWH was on Earth as the Son of man he modelled our relationship with our Father in Heaven as his children
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
10 He was in the world, and the world became through him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own possessions, and his own received him not. [Israel were the children of YHWH]
14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten with a father, full of grace and truth.

Genesis 15:4 And behold, the word of YHWH came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
1Samuel 3:1 Now the boy Samuel was ministering to YHWH in the presence of Eli. And the word of YHWH was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
2Samuel 22:31 This God—his way is perfect; the word of YHWH proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 33:6 By the word of YHWH the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
Colossians 1:16 For by [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through [Jesus] and for [Jesus].

 

[Keithw]

You have learned nothing
Jesus - Y'shua - is WITH the Father -
and when YHWH was on Earth as the Son of man he modelled our relationship with our Father in Heaven as his children
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
10 He was in the world, and the world became through him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own possessions, and his own received him not. [Israel were the children of YHWH]
14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten with a father, full of grace and truth.

Genesis 15:4 And behold, the word of YHWH came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
1Samuel 3:1 Now the boy Samuel was ministering to YHWH in the presence of Eli. And the word of YHWH was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
2Samuel 22:31 This God—his way is perfect; the word of YHWH proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 33:6 By the word of YHWH the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
Colossians 1:16 For by [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through [Jesus] and for [Jesus].

In the Greek LXX. The true God called Ho Theos in the 2nd line at John 1:1--Plain Theos to the word in the last line--The only other spot this occurs is 2 Cor 4:4--The true God called Ho Theos, satan called plain Theos--translating works the same at both spots--God for Ho Theos-god for plain Theos. Itstrhe whole reason adifference was used at both spots.
Your Coll 1:16 is erred. 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. All creation occurred at the beginning.

 

[Waggles]

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. All creation occurred at the beginning.

So then who do you believe that Jesus was and is ??

 

[Keithw]

So then who do you believe that Jesus was and is ??

Jesus teaches he is the one sent by The only true God( Father) at John 17:3-- The Messiah, Gods appointed king. Gods son, not God.

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

God is a multiple being, not a singular being.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:15; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Jesus created everything. Nothing was created, that wasn't created by Him.

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God created everything, Jesus created everything. Therefore Jesus must be God.
Yes Jesus was the "firstborn of creation". He was the first person created when the physical/material creation came into being, but that doesn't mean He didn't exist before He created creation.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Even God the Father calls Jesus God.

John 5:16; For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17; But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
John 5:18; For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The Jews weren't wrong, Jesus was saying He was equal to God. He didn't break the sabbath, because the sabbath was meant for men. Not God.

Matt 12:8; "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Mark 2:27; Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28; "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
Luke 6:5; And He was saying to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
John 5:17; But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Gal 3:13; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"—

We are redeemed by Jesus, but a mere man cannot redeemed us. Only God can.

Psa 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—
Psa 49:8 For the redemption of his soul is costly, And he should cease trying forever—
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 21:6; Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Rev 22:13; "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, God is the Alpha and Omega. Nothing is before God, and nothing is after God.

Exod 3:13; Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Exod 3:14; God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58; Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

If Jesus was only a man, how could He have been alive before Abraham's time? ( approx 2100 BC )

Titus 2:13
(AMPC) Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
(ASV) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(BSB) as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
(CSB) while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(ESV) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(GNB) as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.
(GW) At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(HCSB) while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(MKJV) looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NAS77) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;
(NAS95) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
(NIrV) That's how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in all his glory. He is our great God and Savior.
(NIV) while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
(NKJV) looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NLT) while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

 

[B-A-C]

In fact Jesus was alive before Adam was created, and before Satan tempted Eve.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

 

[Waggles]

The Messiah, Gods appointed king. Gods son, not God.

That really does not explain who you think Jesus was and is.
A bit vague on the details here.
Are you offering us Mormon doctrine to believe in ??

 

[Keithw]

That really does not explain who you think Jesus was and is.
A bit vague on the details here.
Are you offering us Mormon doctrine to believe in ??

Never. I explained exactly who Jesus was.

 

[Waggles]

I explained exactly who Jesus was.

Not really.
Anyway the idea that Jesus is just a man sent from God is ludicrous - not supported by scripture and doctrinally heretical.