The problem there is that the idea of a subterranean underworld doesn't work in many passages. The grave works in all of them. Thus, the grave is the correct definition, not a subterranean underworld. Just because a concept can be forced into Scripture doesn't mean that's what Scriptures teach. I've already explained this parable. I gave Mathew's words saying that Jesus "only" spoke to them in parables. If Jesus only spoke to them in parables, then Lazarus and the Rich Man "must" be a parable. Thus it is not proposing an afterlife between death and the resurrection.
Well I disagree simply because scripture did not identify it as a parable and the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus is a true story for Him to refer to a real life person named Abraham to solidify that story in real after life in the reality they are living in.
Abraham speaking, doesn't that require a mouth? What about the Rich Man's tongue and eyes? Lazarus has fingers? Abraham has a chest? Where do we see ghosts with body parts. look at the passage closely.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Lk. 16:22-23 KJV)
The Rich Man died and in Hades. That statement equates Hades with being buried. People don't bury ghosts, they bury bodies. They're in Hades and we see body parts. Where do we find body parts? Aren't they in the grave? Do we find ghosts with body parts? Aren't spirit immaterial? That view just doesn't fit.
Only because you have a problem seeing spirits identifying with the bodies they once inhabit thus having spiritual bodies from which they speak and feel in order to suffer.
Let me ask you this; Did Jesus descended to hell or not?
Revelation 1: 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Did Jesus preached to those in prison or not?
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient,
I know your unbelief in the afterlife will have you interpret those passages to mean something else, but consider how the apostle John got the Book of Revelation.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Paul testified indirectly of the apostle John and the Book of Revelation.
2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man,
(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Although Paul did write this below;
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Why would Paul entertain the notion that the apostle John may have been taken by his spirit to Heaven as being out of the body if that could never be true?
I see the soul and the breath or ruach. God holds the life of every living thing. He also holds the breath of every living thing. The point is that no life is ultimately over unless God ends it.
According to the plain account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, judgment comes after death and that judgment is immediate.
There are problem here. If the second death is eternal torment, when was the first time people suffered eternal torment?
The second death is the final judgment, and so it is a sure thing when hell gave up the spirits of the dead to be resurrected and then judged where their eternal bodies will go to, the eternal torment will be worse than ever before.
And, if they did suffer eternal torment, how did they get out of it to suffer a second one? And, if they suffer a second one, the first wasn't eternal. See, it doesn't make sense. For something to be the second, it has to be like the first. Two different things aren't the first and second something. My screwdriver is not my second hammer. My second hammer has to be a hammer as the first is a hammer or it's not the second. Therefore, for the Lake of Fire to be the second death, it must be like the first death. We know that the first death is the physical death of the body. Therefore the second one must be the same, or it's not the second.
The difference between the two eternal torment is now in that resurrected eternal state at the Great White Throne Judgment, they are cast into the lake of fire to burn forever as an even worse eternal state to be tormented eternally in.
That doesn't follow. If they give up the dead, then they're dead. It doesn't say they gave up the living.
In according to your unbelief that there is no awareness in the afterlife, for why you are taking the dead as limiting it to the corpse and not the spirit of the man hence the dead of that corpse.
Mayhap I did a disservice to you by not including verse 6 in my earlier posts towards this discussion.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
In the plainness of the language that is written without losing yourself in the Greek or the commas or the commentaries that strain against the gnat, the Lord has ascended to Heaven of Whom we are absent of while in this body and yet when we are absent from this body down here, we are present with the Lord in Heaven, awaiting for our resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event should we qualify, but if not, then the saints have to wait until after the great tribulation until the number of the saints left behind die to join them in Heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled
Here, the spirits of the dead are asking question on how much longer they need to wait as well as asking the Lord for vengeance and yet to do so requires a mouth. So obviously the living cannot touch nor feel a spirit of the dead in the land of the living, unless speaking through a medium, but in the realm of the afterlife, I can see how Jesus story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus as being a true story for Him to include the historical person like Abraham's spirit in it.
You cannot say the apostle John was speaking a parable here, but I suppose if you continue to hold to your belief against what is plainly written, it is possible. I surely hope the Lord helps you see the truth in His words soon.
