How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?

[GodB4Us]

That's irrelevant. He used a story that didn't actually happen to make His point about the judgment that was coming, just as He did with Lazarus and thr Rich Man.

I do not believe Jesus would use a reference to Abraham if his story about the afterlife was not true.

They are. And in English we call them spirits, because that is the main English definition of spirit. However, that is not the definition of the Greek and Hebrew words. That's why the word spirit shouldn't be used. It causes people to import a foreign idea into the text of Scripture.

Demons possessed people for why Jesus has to cast them out. If those demonic spirits can be in a man, what says the man in having his own spirit?

Not following you here. Jesus said He was not a spirit. This should end the whole debate. Jesus was man and not a spirit, thus man is not a spirit.

Man has a spirit i.e. a ghost for when he dies, that is what is being given up and not just his breath.

Genesis 25:8Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people....
.....17And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Genesis 35:29And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis 49:33And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.

Job 3:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? <--- can't very well draw breath to give the ghost up then if the baby never drew breath. He even refer to death in the womb.

Job 10:18Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Job 14:10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Now you can't say Job is being poetic when scriptures regarding the death of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob were hardly poetic, but telling the truth for when a man dies, he is giving up the ghost.

So this discussion should go back to the OP now since people are being sent to hell as in their spirits ae being sent there after unsaved sinners die.

@complete & @FernandoM & @MedicBravo

 

[complete]

Hi Chris, I looked at it briefly yesterday and will look it over thoroughly. However, I don't come to this subject with 30 minute Bible study. I have studied this subject for years. I have researched the the main words used in this subject and their use through Scripture. I've studied the passages used to argue in favour of the ghost position.

I think one reason many misunderstand a lot in Scripture is because they're not connecting the Two Testaments.

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I am sure you have. I only suggest this study of Otis Sellars because he has brought so much light to bear on the wording of the story our Lord told, and shown how it reflects Pharisaic doctrine, and behaviour in such a way that it leaves no doubt as to what the Lord was intending to convey. It can only enhance your own study, it certainly will not detract from it.

In regard to your last sentence, you are probably right .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

But God's words are not silent so why read a long treatise that is only favoring your point of view that there is no awareness in the afterlife?

Hello @GodB4Us,

I do hope you will read it, for your own sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I am sure you have. I only suggest this study of Otis Sellars because he has brought so much light to bear on the wording of the story our Lord told, and shown how it reflects Pharisaic doctrine, and behaviour in such a way that it leaves no doubt as to what the Lord was intending to convey. It can only enhance your own study, it certainly will not detract from it.

In regard to your last sentence, you are probably right .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks! I intend to read it. I'm always open to ideas that I may not have already considered. Seeing things from a different perspective often shines new light on things

 

[Butch5]

I do not believe Jesus would use a reference to Abraham if his story about the afterlife was not true.

Again, What we believe doesn't change the Scriptures. It only changes whether we're right or wrong in our understanding of the Scriptures.

Demons possessed people for why Jesus has to cast them out. If those demonic spirits can be in a man, what says the man in having his own spirit?

Again, I didn't say man doesn't "have" a spirit. Your claim is that the man lives on as a spirit after he dies. If that's the case then the man "Is" a spirit. It's not that he has one. It's that he is one. That's what I've been asking you to establish. You're making a claim that requires man to "be" a spirit, but you using passages that say man "has" a spirit.

Man has a spirit i.e. a ghost for when he dies, that is what is being given up and not just his breath.

Firstly, before things get confusing. I used the word ghost, specifically to avoid using the words soul or spirit. The English word ghost best conveys the idea that you're presenting, that of a disembodied person living on after death. So, to keep things clear let's not equate spirit and ghost. Although the English words may be used synonymously, the Greek and Hebrew words can't be. So, when I say spirit, I am "not" referring to a ghost, and likewise, when I say ghost, I am "not" referring to spirit.

Genesis 25:8Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people....
.....17And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Genesis 35:29And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis 49:33And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.

Job 3:11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? <--- can't very well draw breath to give the ghost up then if the baby never drew breath. He even refer to death in the womb.

Job 10:18Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Job 14:10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Now you can't say Job is being poetic when scriptures regarding the death of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob were hardly poetic, but telling the truth for when a man dies, he is giving up the ghost.

So this discussion should go back to the OP now since people are being sent to hell as in their spirits ae being sent there after unsaved sinners die.

@complete & @FernandoM & @MedicBravo

Are you aware that the phrase "give up the ghost" is an English idiom? It simply means to die. If you look at translations other than the KJV you'll see they say so and so died. I looked up all of the passages you posted. They all use the Hebrew word "gava". It simply means to die or to expire. There is nothing in it that indicates a disembodied living being.

 

[Butch5]

You do realize that the Greek word "pneuma" may also be referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit? So the word pneuma is defined by how it is used in the context of the message that is being given.

That may be the case, however, it's still a figure of speech.

It is my understanding that you are referring to outside sources for your reading of the scripture for why you seem to go around what is plainly written.

Can you elaborate? You're reading English correct? The Scriptures were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Doesn't that mean you're referring to outside sources?

Scripture can prove the existence of the Triune God and the pre great tribulation rapture, but that doesn't mean every saved believer will see the truth in His words when they are reading it per their preconceived belief into the scripture or something they find uncomfortable in the scripture.

Actually, they can't be. However, that's not the issue. What I believe has no bearing on whether or not your argument is valid. If you can establish, from properly exegeted Scripture, that man "Is" a spirit, your argument is valid. If you can't then it's conjecture and opinion.

What does it mean for you that there is an awareness in the afterlife? Does it make you uncomfortable that spirits of the dead are aware and can suffer in hell in the afterlife? Is that why you do not want to believe and so influence you in how you read the scriptures in spite of what is plainly written?

Not at all. I used to believe in the typical afterlife theory. It was the Scriptures that changed by mind. I believe God is honest and can be taken at His word. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. I take him at His word. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer eternal conscious torment. Since He said, "the soul that sins shall die" that must be the penalty for sin if God is honest. If the penalty is something different then this statement is false. John said in John 3:16 that God sent His only Son so that whosoever believes should not perish. So, John tells us that those who don't believe will perish. That's the same as dying. That's what God said the penalty was. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death". Paul said the same thing that God said. None of them said anything about people being tormented for eternity.

So, the same guy who tells us unbelievers will perish is the same guy who tells us that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Now, here's a question. If John believes, because he said so, that the unbelievers would perish how can he then indicate eternal torment in the Lake of Fire?

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GodB4Us,

I do hope you will read it, for your own sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well, thanks for your concern for my good in the Lord, but for my own sake and every one else's, it is better to believe in an awareness in the afterlife if anyone wishes to avoid the consequences in the afterlife.

 

[GodB4Us]

Again, What we believe doesn't change the Scriptures. It only changes whether we're right or wrong in our understanding of the Scriptures.

Scripture testifies to the after life or else what would the consequence be for the unrepentant sinner if they believe there will be no suffering in the afterlife? What is their motivation to need God as their Saviour to save them from?

Again, I didn't say man doesn't "have" a spirit. Your claim is that the man lives on as a spirit after he dies. If that's the case then the man "Is" a spirit. It's not that he has one. It's that he is one. That's what I've been asking you to establish. You're making a claim that requires man to "be" a spirit, but you using passages that say man "has" a spirit.

That is your claim that I am saying man is a spirit. I am saying he has a spirit for why he lives on in the afterlife apart from his physical body which is dead in the land of the living..

Firstly, before things get confusing. I used the word ghost, specifically to avoid using the words soul or spirit. The English word ghost best conveys the idea that you're presenting, that of a disembodied person living on after death. So, to keep things clear let's not equate spirit and ghost. Although the English words may be used synonymously, the Greek and Hebrew words can't be. So, when I say spirit, I am "not" referring to a ghost, and likewise, when I say ghost, I am "not" referring to spirit.

That may be your understanding and I can apply that in regards to your point of view but the Greek word pneuma can mean breath, spirit, ghost, demon, angels, mental disposition, vital principle or the Holy Spirit depending on how it is used in scripture.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

Are you aware that the phrase "give up the ghost" is an English idiom? It simply means to die.

How do you not know that the English idiom came from scripture & not the other way around? As it is as reading in scripture when someone gives up the ghost, they have died as in vacating the land of the living to the afterlife..

If you look at translations other than the KJV you'll see they say so and so died. I looked up all of the passages you posted. They all use the Hebrew word "gava". It simply means to die or to expire. There is nothing in it that indicates a disembodied living being.

True in comparing the KJV with the NLT for why I rely on the KJV for the truth in His words. Genesis 25:8,17 & Genesis 35:28 & Job 3:11 & Job 14:10 KJV VS NLT

John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 & 1 Corinthians 1:18,21 KJV VS NLT <--- at this link we see John 16:13 testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speak what He hears in both versions but in the NLT, Romans 8:26-27 implies that the Spirit does utter sounds from Himself in making intercessions for the saints whereas the KJV maintains the truth in His words in the KJV that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings when making intercessions for us for why the "he" is Jesus Christ as he is the One that searches our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 and thus the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's intercessions to the father because this is in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and man by how all intercessions comes to the Father for when the Father says yes to any of them, the Son answers the prayer per John 14:13-14. This is how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer Matthew 6:7-8 hence negate the necessity for the vaunted claim that the Holy Spirit prays in secret so the devil cannot do anything to undermine the prayer request.... as if.. since the devil cannot do anything without the Lord's permission for why that vaunted claim is false.

So the KJV keeps the meat of His words whereas the NLT does not so believers can know that God's gift of tongues are not for private use 1 Corinthians 12;7, & 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 but for speaking unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21. 1 Corinthians 7,19-21 & 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 KJV VS NLT Even though they both read the same but because of Romans 8:26-27 of the NLT, it sows doubts in His words about John 16:13 & 1 Corinthians 12:7,19-21 in that NLT version to mislead believers into thinking He did not really meant that.

Then you have that false teaching out there that we are in the process of being saved and not are saved whereas they can use the NLT to support that false teaching but not with the KJV in 1 Corinthians 1:18,21.

So while you use English as an excuse not to rely on the KJV, for the actual meaning of His words, I rely on Him to help me see the truth in His words which the KJV has kept for me to discern good & evil by His words that the NLT does not.

 

[GodB4Us]

That may be the case, however, it's still a figure of speech.

Can you elaborate? You're reading English correct? The Scriptures were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Doesn't that mean you're referring to outside sources?

I'm talking about going to human authors like commentaries and such for explaining scriptures to us like the article "What Is Synonymous Parallelism in Hebrew Poetry?" It can still come across as just an opinion, a private interpretation of scripture rather than just reading it as is.

Actually, they can't be. However, that's not the issue. What I believe has no bearing on whether or not your argument is valid. If you can establish, from properly exegeted Scripture, that man "Is" a spirit, your argument is valid. If you can't then it's conjecture and opinion.

Again, that is your claim of what I am saying when I am saying man has a spirit.

Not at all. I used to believe in the typical afterlife theory. It was the Scriptures that changed by mind.

I do not see how when Jesus referred to the afterlife about the rich man and the beggar for why I seem to see you missing the forest for all the trees. Granted, only God can cause the increase & so I am praying He will get past this block you seem to be having when reading the scripture plainly enough.

I believe God is honest and can be taken at His word. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. I take him at His word. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer eternal conscious torment. Since He said, "the soul that sins shall die" that must be the penalty for sin if God is honest. If the penalty is something different then this statement is false. John said in John 3:16 that God sent His only Son so that whosoever believes should not perish. So, John tells us that those who don't believe will perish. That's the same as dying. That's what God said the penalty was. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death". Paul said the same thing that God said. None of them said anything about people being tormented for eternity.

I believe Him too when a soul sins, he will die and no longer be in the land of the living but that does not negate scripture testifying to the after life.

So, the same guy who tells us unbelievers will perish is the same guy who tells us that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Now, here's a question. If John believes, because he said so, that the unbelievers would perish how can he then indicate eternal torment in the Lake of Fire?

The irony that you are overlooking is that at the Great White Throne Judgment, hell and death will be giving up the dead as in the spirits of the dead to be resurrected to be judged and so hardly the ones that ceased to be after they had died.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So are corpses being judged? No. The spirits of the dead are being resurrected and judged.

Where were those dead at? Some were in hell, some were in the sea, and yet oddly enough death gave up the dead. How can these places & a certain non-living state give up the dead unless the spirits of the dead were in them?

I am sure by your belief, you can answer it accordingly, but since there are grounds for the after life in scripture, you cannot say there isn't any in scripture when there is for why we agree to disagree.

 

[Butch5]

Scripture testifies to the after life or else what would the consequence be for the unrepentant sinner if they believe there will be no suffering in the afterlife? What is their motivation to need God as their Saviour to save them from?

Death, as the Scriptures say.

That is your claim that I am saying man is a spirit. I am saying he has a spirit for why he lives on in the afterlife apart from his physical body which is dead in the land of the living..

I know what you're saying. However, what you're saying is impossible. If man has a spirit, then that spirit is "not" man. That means when the man dies, he's dead, no more life. The only way the man can continue on after the body dies is if he "Is" spirit. If man "has" a spirit then he is not what lives on after the body dies. It would be the spirit that lives on. However, that wouldn't be the man because the man is not the spirit. I have a truck. That doesn't mean I am a truck. "Has" and "is" are two completely different things. if man has a spirit then the spirit isn't man because it belongs to the man. Just like I "have" a truck and that truck belongs to me. What you're claiming is logically impossible.

That may be your understanding and I can apply that in regards to your point of view but the Greek word pneuma can mean breath, spirit, ghost, demon, angels, mental disposition, vital principle or the Holy Spirit depending on how it is used in scripture.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

Just because a word is in the dictionary doesn't necessarily mean that's what the Greek and Hebrew words can mean. There is a boatload of stuff in Bible commentaries and dictionaries that is incorrect. The question isn't what do we find in the dictionary, it's what do we find in the Bible.

How do you not know that the English idiom came from scripture & not the other way around? As it is as reading in scripture when someone gives up the ghost, they have died as in vacating the land of the living to the afterlife..

Because it's English. As I said, the Hebrew word is gava. It means to die or expire.

Scripture testifies to the after life or else what would the consequence be for the unrepentant sinner if they believe there will be no suffering in the afterlife? What is their motivation to need God as their Saviour to save them from?

That is your claim that I am saying man is a spirit. I am saying he has a spirit for why he lives on in the afterlife apart from his physical body which is dead in the land of the living..

That may be your understanding and I can apply that in regards to your point of view but the Greek word pneuma can mean breath, spirit, ghost, demon, angels, mental disposition, vital principle or the Holy Spirit depending on how it is used in scripture.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

How do you not know that the English idiom came from scripture & not the other way around? As it is as reading in scripture when someone gives up the ghost, they have died as in vacating the land of the living to the afterlife..

True in comparing the KJV with the NLT for why I rely on the KJV for the truth in His words. Genesis 25:8,17 & Genesis 35:28 & Job 3:11 & Job 14:10 KJV VS NLT

John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 & 1 Corinthians 1:18,21 KJV VS NLT <--- at this link we see John 16:13 testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speak what He hears in both versions but in the NLT, Romans 8:26-27 implies that the Spirit does utter sounds from Himself in making intercessions for the saints whereas the KJV maintains the truth in His words in the KJV that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings when making intercessions for us for why the "he" is Jesus Christ as he is the One that searches our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 and thus the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's intercessions to the father because this is in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and man by how all intercessions comes to the Father for when the Father says yes to any of them, the Son answers the prayer per John 14:13-14. This is how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer Matthew 6:7-8 hence negate the necessity for the vaunted claim that the Holy Spirit prays in secret so the devil cannot do anything to undermine the prayer request.... as if.. since the devil cannot do anything without the Lord's permission for why that vaunted claim is false.

So the KJV keeps the meat of His words whereas the NLT does not so believers can know that God's gift of tongues are not for private use 1 Corinthians 12;7, & 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 but for speaking unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21. 1 Corinthians 7,19-21 & 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 KJV VS NLT Even though they both read the same but because of Romans 8:26-27 of the NLT, it sows doubts in His words about John 16:13 & 1 Corinthians 12:7,19-21 in that NLT version to mislead believers into thinking He did not really meant that.

Then you have that false teaching out there that we are in the process of being saved and not are saved whereas they can use the NLT to support that false teaching but not with the KJV in 1 Corinthians 1:18,21.

So while you use English as an excuse not to rely on the KJV, for the actual meaning of His words, I rely on Him to help me see the truth in His words which the KJV has kept for me to discern good & evil by His words that the NLT does not.

True in comparing the KJV with the NLT for why I rely on the KJV for the truth in His words. Genesis 25:8,17 & Genesis 35:28 & Job 3:11 & Job 14:10 KJV VS NLT

John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 & 1 Corinthians 1:18,21 KJV VS NLT <--- at this link we see John 16:13 testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speak what He hears in both versions but in the NLT, Romans 8:26-27 implies that the Spirit does utter sounds from Himself in making intercessions for the saints whereas the KJV maintains the truth in His words in the KJV that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings when making intercessions for us for why the "he" is Jesus Christ as he is the One that searches our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 and thus the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's intercessions to the father because this is in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and man by how all intercessions comes to the Father for when the Father says yes to any of them, the Son answers the prayer per John 14:13-14. This is how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer Matthew 6:7-8 hence negate the necessity for the vaunted claim that the Holy Spirit prays in secret so the devil cannot do anything to undermine the prayer request.... as if.. since the devil cannot do anything without the Lord's permission for why that vaunted claim is false.

So the KJV keeps the meat of His words whereas the NLT does not so believers can know that God's gift of tongues are not for private use 1 Corinthians 12;7, & 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 but for speaking unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21. 1 Corinthians 7,19-21 & 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 KJV VS NLT Even though they both read the same but because of Romans 8:26-27 of the NLT, it sows doubts in His words about John 16:13 & 1 Corinthians 12:7,19-21 in that NLT version to mislead believers into thinking He did not really meant that.

Then you have that false teaching out there that we are in the process of being saved and not are saved whereas they can use the NLT to support that false teaching but not with the KJV in 1 Corinthians 1:18,21.

So while you use English as an excuse not to rely on the KJV, for the actual meaning of His words, I rely on Him to help me see the truth in His words which the KJV has kept for me to discern good & evil by His words that the NLT does not.

I don't use English so as not to rely on the KJV. I'm going to the Greek and Hebrew texts that the KJV came from. If you've noticed, I've been quoting from the KJV and it is the primary version I use. However, it is not perfect. So, in order to make sure I'm not getting off base I check other translations along with the original languages. The KJV was actually translated from just a few manuscripts. Erasmus didn't even have the complete Bible when he made his translation. So, while I like the majority text, from which the KJV comes, I don't exclude other texts.

 

[Butch5]

I'm talking about going to human authors like commentaries and such for explaining scriptures to us like the article "What Is Synonymous Parallelism in Hebrew Poetry?" It can still come across as just an opinion, a private interpretation of scripture rather than just reading it as is.

I didn't. I gave you the article to explain how the Hebrew language works. It doesn't explain what the passage you posted means. But, think about this. The very same guys you trust for your translation looked at the works of other human authors to get their understanding. So, even if you don't realize it, you're getting the input of the human mind because you're reading a translation. Those men who translated the KJV learned what they believed. They then looked at the Scriptures, filtered the Scriptures through their minds. This in turn affected how they came to understand the texts. They then put down in print how "They" understood the texts. So, if they didn't understand the text correctly, there's always the chance that they didn't translate it correctly

Again, that is your claim of what I am saying when I am saying man has a spirit.

I know what you're saying. What I'm trying to explain is that what you're saying isn't possible. From what you've said, the man has to be either the body or the spirit. If the body dies and the man lives on, then the body was not the man or the man would be dead. If he lives on, the man must be the spirit. That would mean the man "is" the spirit, not that he has one.

I do not see how when Jesus referred to the afterlife about the rich man and the beggar for why I seem to see you missing the forest for all the trees. Granted, only God can cause the increase & so I am praying He will get past this block you seem to be having when reading the scripture plainly enough.

I'll explain how. It starts with Gen.2:7.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

In this passage we have, the body, the spirit, and the soul. These are the three that most people claim that man consists of. Most say that man is body, soul, and spirit. We have all three right here in the passage about the creation of man. So, let's look at them. The man is formed from the dust. That's the body. Moses records that God breathed into the body, the breath of lives. God is breath or spirit. He breathed breath or spirit into the man. When He did that there was a transformation. Moses records that the man "Became" a living soul. Before man had the breath of lives, he was not a soul. After he received the breath of lives, he was a soul. This shows us that the body of dust and the breath of lives combined to form something new, a soul. From this we conclude that a soul consists of two elements, the body and the breath of lives. That's the creation man. In this passage there is only "One" spirit mentioned, it is God's. It's the breath of lives. This passage doesn't say anything at all about any other spirit that "is" or is in man. nothing. We know that this spirit that is in man is God's because it came out of God. In addition the Scriptures tell us that it is God's sprit, breath. Job said that if God retrieved His Ruach and His Neshamah all flesh would die. Paul tells us that God gives, or is giving, it's present tense, life to all things. So, if God stopped giving life all things would die. That tells us that the spirit that is in man, the breath of lives, is God's. However, in Ezekiel 37 He tells us plainly. Ezekiel sees a vision of Israel's resurrection. In it there is a valley of dry bones. After being told to prophesy he sees bones coming together, then skin come on them etc. However, they are not alive. Then he's told to prophesy to the ruach, the wind. after doing this, ruach, breath, comes into them and they live. This is the exact same thing we see in Gen 2:7. However, after seeing the vision God gives him the interpretation. He tells him that the bones are the whole house of Israel and that He is going to bring them out of their graves. And then God say to Israel, I will put "MY' Ruach, spirit, in you and you shall live. So God says plainly here that it is "HIS" spirit that is giving them life. It's not a spirit of the man. It's not "their" spirit. God says it is "HIS" Ruach, spirit, that He puts in them and they live. So, Ezekiel sees the same thing Moses recorded in Gen 2:7. And God said it was "His" Ruach, spirit.

Now, let me ask a question . In all of this that I've written, and please check Ezekiel 37 and Gen 2:7, and in the passages, do you see any other spirit put in man, besides God's spirit? I don't. If you don't, then let me ask, what is this man's spirit that lives on after death?

So, if we have only one spirit in man and that spirit is God's spirit, I have to conclude that the only spirit in man is God's spirit. I see no other spirit, so I have to conclude that man is of the dust of the earth. We're told in Scripture that when man dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body returns to the dust. We've seen from the above passages that the spirit is God's spirit, and it returns to Him. That only leaves the body. The soul has ceased to exist as it's two components, the body and God's spirit have separated. That only leaves the body. The body returns to the dust. All three are accounted for. So, my question is, what lives on?

I believe Him too when a soul sins, he will die and no longer be in the land of the living but that does not negate scripture testifying to the after life.

There's not Scripture that attests to an afterlife except those that speak of resurrection.

The irony that you are overlooking is that at the Great White Throne Judgment, hell and death will be giving up the dead as in the spirits of the dead to be resurrected to be judged and so hardly the ones that ceased to be after they had died.

Where does it say hell and death will be giving up spirits?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So are corpses being judged? No. The spirits of the dead are being resurrected and judged.

How can the spirits of the dead be resurrected? You said the spirit doesn't die, it lives on after the body dies. For something to be resurrected it has to die. From what you've said, only the body could be resurrected. Thus we see what is being judge, resurrected people.

Where were those dead at? Some were in hell, some were in the sea, and yet oddly enough death gave up the dead. How can these places & a certain non-living state give up the dead unless the spirits of the dead were in them?

It's figurative language. The sea isn't going to say, hey God, here are the dead you wanted. Hell isn't going to do that. Remember what Jesus said.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

Jesus is going to call forth the dead. That's how the hell and the sea will give up their dead.

I am sure by your belief, you can answer it accordingly, but since there are grounds for the after life in scripture, you cannot say there isn't any in scripture when there is for why we agree to disagree.

I can say there's not any. Because the parable isn't about an afterlife. It a story using an afterlife to describe the death and judgment of the priesthood. Jesus spoke to the Jews in parables so that He could tell them realities in a way they wouldn't understand.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)t

Matthew tells us plainly that Jesus only spoke to them in parables. He didn't speak to them in regular language, He used parables. This tells us two things. It tells us that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable and it tells us the story is "not" literal.

 

[complete]

Well, thanks for your concern for my good in the Lord, but for my own sake and every one else's, it is better to believe in an awareness in the afterlife if anyone wishes to avoid the consequences in the afterlife.

'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Cor. 15:22-23)

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
(Col 3:3-4)

Hello @GodB4Us,

God has given to us the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 1:1). That 'life' is Resurrection life. There can be no life for the soul of man, except by the power of the resurrection (Ephesians 1:19-20). In God's eyes the believer 'sleeps in Christ' at death (1 Corinthians 15:18), and is awakened to life at the resurrection, and not before.

Even now we are reckoned, in God's sight, to have died, 'with Christ', and our life is hid with Christ in God, and when Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear with Him in glory. God has said it, and I believe it.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello @GodB4Us,

Man does not have an immortal soul, for, 'the soul that sinneth it shall surely die' (Ezekiel 18:4). All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), so all die.

If the soul is mortal as Scripture affirms (1 Timothy 6:16), then there is no point considering where it goes at death. Immortality is something that the believer, 'puts on,' at the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:53).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodB4Us]

Death, as the Scriptures say.

I know what you're saying. However, what you're saying is impossible. If man has a spirit, then that spirit is "not" man. That means when the man dies, he's dead, no more life. The only way the man can continue on after the body dies is if he "Is" spirit. If man "has" a spirit then he is not what lives on after the body dies. It would be the spirit that lives on. However, that wouldn't be the man because the man is not the spirit. I have a truck. That doesn't mean I am a truck. "Has" and "is" are two completely different things. if man has a spirit then the spirit isn't man because it belongs to the man. Just like I "have" a truck and that truck belongs to me. What you're claiming is logically impossible.

Just because a word is in the dictionary doesn't necessarily mean that's what the Greek and Hebrew words can mean. There is a boatload of stuff in Bible commentaries and dictionaries that is incorrect. The question isn't what do we find in the dictionary, it's what do we find in the Bible.

Because it's English. As I said, the Hebrew word is gava. It means to die or expire.


I don't use English so as not to rely on the KJV. I'm going to the Greek and Hebrew texts that the KJV came from. If you've noticed, I've been quoting from the KJV and it is the primary version I use. However, it is not perfect. So, in order to make sure I'm not getting off base I check other translations along with the original languages. The KJV was actually translated from just a few manuscripts. Erasmus didn't even have the complete Bible when he made his translation. So, while I like the majority text, from which the KJV comes, I don't exclude other texts.

Well this explains a lot for why we are far apart. The irony is that many who go to the Greek and Hebrew argue among themselves for what scripture is meaning in English.

And many go into the Greek and Hebrew reading their beliefs into scripture as they do in the scripture in English.

Wisdom comes from the Lord. He opens the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

So I suggest that if you value your personal reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ, you may want to avail yourself to Him for help at that throne of grace.

Even if you think everything is hunky dorey between the two of you, ask anyway just to be sure. You never know; He might answer.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[GodB4Us]

'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Cor. 15:22-23)

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
(Col 3:3-4)

Hello @GodB4Us,

God has given to us the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 1:1). That 'life' is Resurrection life. There can be no life for the soul of man, except by the power of the resurrection (Ephesians 1:19-20). In God's eyes the believer 'sleeps in Christ' at death (1 Corinthians 15:18), and is awakened to life at the resurrection, and not before.

Even now we are reckoned, in God's sight, to have died, 'with Christ', and our life is hid with Christ in God, and when Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear with Him in glory. God has said it, and I believe it.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

How do you apply this reference below?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

@Butch5 What is your rendering of those 3 verses from the Greek in English? How do you apply those words to mean?

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GodB4Us,

Man does not have an immortal soul, for, 'the soul that sinneth it shall surely die' (Ezekiel 18:4).

In relations to Ezekiel 18:4, living people are being judged.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), so all die.

If the soul is mortal as Scripture affirms (1 Timothy 6:16), then there is no point considering where it goes at death. Immortality is something that the believer, 'puts on,' at the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:53).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

People are mortal for why they die, and souls should not be seen as mortal but that the souls in mortals shall be judged for why the mortals shall die.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

How can those who have died, be judged after death if they cease to exists?

 

[complete]

In relations to Ezekiel 18:4, living people are being judged.

People are mortal for why they die, and souls should not be seen as mortal but that the souls in mortals shall be judged for why the mortals shall die.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

How can those who have died, be judged after death if they cease to exists?

Hello @GB4Us,

In Ezekiel 18:4 it is the whole person that is being referred to. As in 1 Peter 3:19-20 where Noah's family were referred to as 'eight souls':-

'By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'
(1 Peter 3:19-20)

In Hebrews 9:27 that you refer to, it says, 'it is appointed unto men once to die', which no one can dispute: but they are also raised by God to be judged in a day yet to come.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GB4Us,

In Ezekiel 18:4 it is the whole person that is being referred to. As in 1 Peter 3:19-20 where Noah's family were referred to as 'eight souls':-

'By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'
(1 Peter 3:19-20)

In Hebrews 9:27 that you refer to, it says, 'it is appointed unto men once to die', which no one can dispute: but they are also raised by God to be judged in a day yet to come.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

One can still see them as retaining their souls in the land of the living as eight souls were saved from expiring from that global flood.

When ships are lost at sea, they inquire to how many souls were on board thus indicating how many souls were lost from the land of the living.

 

[complete]

One can still see them as retaining their souls in the land of the living as eight souls were saved from expiring from that global flood.

When ships are lost at sea, they inquire to how many souls were on board thus indicating how many souls were lost from the land of the living.

Yes, @GodB4Us,

They were 'souls' or 'persons'. The whole man.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, @GodB4Us,

They were 'souls' or 'persons'. The whole man.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I understand your point of view but I do not limit the soul to the body of the man.

How do you apply this reference below?

Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.