The unforgivable sin cancels out your view here.
First...read verse 13 of what?
Second, because you do not know anything about covenants or covenanting, you fail to understand that one only has eternal life if he is in Christ, and one only remains in Christ as long as he is walking in obedience to God in Christ, particularly in the Law of Christ (I John 3:23-24). As Scripture clearly teaches, eternal life is found ONLY "in Christ" and if a saved person for whatever reason ceases to remain abiding in Christ, then he no longer has eternal life and is on his way to eternal fire.
Also, keep in mind this important Biblical principle of interpretation, the Contradiction Principle: God does NOT contradict Himself in His Word, at all, anywhere. If there is an apparent contradiction, it is solidly based in either the translation or in your personal interpretation...in which case, one needs to amend his interpretation in order to harmonize the text with the rest of Scripture (the Harmony Principle). That said, let us continue...
This verse does not address believers or fallen believers, so how does it support your claim?
This is a classic calvinist text that has been butchered through calvinism for centuries. The text does NOT say that God will not deny the unfaithful person, it says that God will not deny the truth of His Word. If a person is unfaithful to God, then He will deny Him access to heaven. God has set down rules for Christian behavior, and if you do not follow those rules, while there is grace for those who are in Christ, by breaking the rules you cease to remain in Christ, hence no more grace. God will deny such a person because he is walking in willful disobedience...not just falling to sin every now and then, but practicing sinful behavior. That, too, is covenant.
In covenant, there is only covenant grace. You have God's favor as long as you remain abiding in Christ the living New Covenant of God - but if a person ceases to remain abiding in Him, then he has no more grace, because saving grace is a gift from God by the new covenant.
Nope, I don't see it as saying on can lose salvation. The verse that says that, is verse 13.
You have a problem here, verse 19 does not negate verse 18, and that is essentially what you are claiming. Hymenaeus and Philetus were not castaways, they were false teachers. No false teacher walks with or abides in Christ. They were perverting the gospel message and people's faith was being overthrown...they were led off the right path into perversion, and these two men were directly responsible for lives lost. The word translated there as "overthrow" is the word anatrepo, meaning to subvert and destroy, to overturn, overthrow, destroy. If you are the cause of destroying a believer's faith and, thus, his stand as having eternal life, then you will pay for that unless you honestly come to repent for it at some time later...but those people's blood will still be on your hands unless they return to God at some point before they die.
(I was just re-reading that paragraph, and when I say "you" I don't mean YOU, I mean anyone.)
Actually, that is not what he is saying at all. He is making the distinction between a common person (an unsaved person) and a saved person who desires to be a good minister of the gospel. You left off verse 22, where Paul continues exorting Timothy to "flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness..." It has nothing to do with someone not being able to lose their standing as having salvation or eternal life, it has to do with being a good minister. You have taken this verse out of its context and reassigned to it a wrong interpretation in order to support your thesis. It does not stand.
I see what you are saying, but it is in error and does not line up with the rest of Scripture. That is what happens when you take a passage out of its context...
None of the passages that you have given thus far supports any of your claim, primarily because you have interpreted them outside of their context.
No, this verse does not say that a person is saved simply because they believe. That is a half-truth that is paramount to a deceptive lie...and that, too, originated with Calvin. Calvinism teaches that a person gets saved only be believing...so you apparently believe in more calvinistic doctrine than you think you do. The main point of the text you reference, is that Christ gives those who choose to believe in Him "the power to become sons of God," it does NOT say that they "become sons of God." You need to pay attention to all of the words of a text, and not just the ones that you think support your contention. No one becomes a son of God just because they believe, that belief is only the first prerequisite a person must come to in order to get saved.
You keep returning to this false notion of a foundation...again, one only has that "foundation" as long as he remains abiding in Christ by walking in obedience to His Word. If a person in Christ ceases to do so, then he is cut off by God himself (John 15:1-2, 6) and is no longer abiding in Christ...he is on his way to eternal fire.
More calvinist mantra that you claim not to believe. The word for "sealed" here is sphragizo, and it can mean either to seal (as in a signet ring marking parchment or sealing the rolled parchment with wax or clay with the dignitary's signet ring), or marked in order to show authenticity or approvedness. Most of its 14 uses in the NT Scriptures (including here) means mark of approval, it does NOT mean that you have been magically sealed in a giant spiritual zip-lock baggie preserved for heaven...that is false calvinistic doctrine that is NOT supported by Scripture one ounce.
And, even if it did mean that, one is only marked or sealed by the presence of the Holy Spirit in their life, as long as they continue to abide in Christ and walk in obedience to God...
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God gives to those who are walking in obedience to Him. (and others)
Again, all of the gifts and promises of God to humanity are wrapped up and given in, through, and by the new covenant...including the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If a saved person ceases to walk in obedience to God, then His Spirit will leave that person after they cross a line, because he is no longer abiding in Christ, the living new covenant of God (Isa 42:6, 49:8).
Incorrect...and you flub this one because you are not studying the topic topically...rather you are only taking a few passages out of over 300 that address eternal life and salvation. Jesus says that He will not cast such a person out, and later He says that God is the one who will cut such a person off (again, John 15:1-2, 6)...along with numerous other passages that teach the same. A person is only on his way to heaven IF he is currently abiding in Christ by walking in obedience to God, no one else. If Tom was in Christ, and fell away, he is NOT still saved, he has NO foundation (as you call it), because all that God provides for us is found only in Christ...salvation, eternal life, righteousness, holiness, redemption, reconciliation, justification, etc...they are all bound up within the covenant of Christ, and the ONLY way a person has any of these, is if he is in Christ.
It is apparent that you have been taught error on a great many biblical subjects. The marriage supper of the Lamb is in the resurrection where only those who died in Christ can participate in. Those who have been left behind in this particular parable does not mean the rapture, it means that they were foolish and thought they were walking with God when in reality they were not. They were believers, but again, just believing does NOT take a person to heaven. This is the same set of circumstances that Jesus prophesied about here:
Matthew 7:21-23*
21 Not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who continually obey My Father who is in Heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name performed many works of power?'
23 And then I will tell them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'
A person uneducated in covenant will not understand accurately what Jesus is saying here in this passage. The Greek implies that Jesus says that those who call Him Lord are saved, or were saved at one time. He continues stating the fact that unless you are walking in obedience to God, you will NOT enter heaven...at all. This tells us that maintaining our state of eternal life is directly hinged upon our obedience to God - no obedience, no eternal life, no heaven. In verse 22 He appears to throw a monkey wrench into the statement, but in reality He is addressing the purpose for salvation in the first place. He basically states that even though these people were saved and abiding in covenant relationship with God, which is the only way they could perform in the supernatural as lined out in the text - because all of the gifts of the Spirit (and so forth) are given to us, along with all spiritual and authority, in and through the new covenant. These people were saved, and performing spiritual feats by the Holy Spirit given to them through the new covenant...BUT...they failed to take up the purpose of getting freed from their sins in the first place...
John 17:3
And this is the purpose for eternal life, so that they can come to know You personally, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
God does NOT save anyone for heaven. The atonement in Christ follows the exact same purpose and function of the atonement given to Moses by God - to forgive one's sins and to cleanse him from his sins, qualifying him to be able to enter into the presence of a holy God so that he can engage God in personal relationship. That is what salvation from sin is all about...and if a person gets saved, but fails to engage God in personal relationship thereby coming to know Him and God...then on judgment day he will hear those words from Christ, "I never knew you, depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." In the synoptic Lukean version, He says...
Luke 13:24-27*
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When the Master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, “Lord, open to us,” then He will answer you, and say, “I do not know you, where have you been?” Then you will begin to say, “We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.” But He will say, “I say to you, I do not know you, where have you been? Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity!”
The implication is simple...these people were saved at one point in their lives, but they failed to engage God in personal relationship, the very reason and purpose that they were saved for in the first place. That is what the Greek means by "where have you been?" Implying that they were not spending adequate time with God in prayer, coming to know Him. Rather, they were off playing games, gardening, watching hours and hours of TV, on their computers for hours a day, and everything else under the sun EXCEPT spending time in the Light of God's presence.
Absolutely wrong, and in great error. Salvation and eternal life are not the same things. Salvation is the new birth, a work of God alone - but eternal life is maintained by YOU, according to Scripture (even what we just read). If you cease to walk in obedience to God, regardless of whether you got saved in the past or not, then you are on your way to hell...that is what Scripture teaches...
II Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
I John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Matthew 13:18-21
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
John 16:1
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.”
John 15:2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain abiding in Me, he is rejected, cut off and thrown away like a branch and withers; and they are gathered together, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
I Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
I Timothy 5:11
But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry
I Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
II Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to continuously renew themselves to the quality of repentance that they had at the first, seeing as they continually crucify to themselves the Son of God, putting Him to continuous public shame.
Hebrews 13:9
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.
Revelation 3:15-16
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Colossians 2:18
Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
I Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
II Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the Faith.
Romans 1:28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up (rejected) to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
II Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you . . . unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (literally: “unless you are rejected”)
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit (worthless, rejected, disqualified) for any good work.
Hebrews 6:8
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless (rejected, disqualified) and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Romans 1:21-32
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Demas
Colossians 4:14
Luke the beloved physician greets you, as does Demas.
Philemon 1:24
and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.
II Timothy 4:10
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
Hymenaeus
I Timothy 1:19-20
possessing doctrines of the faith and good conscience, concerning some who, after rejecting those articles of faith, they have been shipwrecked, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
II Timothy 2:16-18
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.
II Peter 2:20-22
Because if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
ALL of the above passages (32 in all) teach that a saved person can fail to walk with God, fall away from Christ, and end up in hell. Remember, God does not contradict Himself, therefore, you need to re-align your interpretations of the passages you hold to that you think state a saved person cannot end up in hell, because your interpretation directly contradicts what God's Word says. His Word is not in error, it is your interpretation of it that is in error. And remember, this is a calvinist doctrine you are arguing for, while claiming at the same time out of the same mouth that calvinism is a heresy.
This verse has nothing to do with a saved person losing his eternal life.
You have again fallen back upon calvinist explanations for this false ideology. Read the text again, only this time in its context...Paul is addressing ministers, NOT the average Christian. Ministers are the builders upon the foundation, and if they build upon that true foundation with false doctrines, whether they understand them to be false or not, their works will burn up. The minister might still be saved (when we study the topic TOPICALLY and not with this single verse) IF he is not following his own false doctrines, cutting himself off from Christ by doing so.
Nope, a false and unbiblical statement altogether. The passages that I have given to you demonstrate that fact to a "T." The only way to get around them, is to ignore and fail to apply a complete Biblical hermeneutic (as you already have here), and doing that will destroy your claim to seeking truth from God. God does not simply drop truth into our minds, He expects us to search for it according to the right way, and if we fail to do that, particularly after we have been shown how to do that, then we are self-condemned.
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8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
