Here's a good question for you!

[Admon Mikha'el]

And your Scriptural evidence for that is...what?

Here is what the texts state again...

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

First, God told Adam that the day he ate from the tree, he would die. The natural thing to think is that God meant physical death...

Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Adam ate from the tree, yet he did not die physically. Since we see God's words above, the only logical conclusion is that God meant spiritual death. This is ratified in other Scriptures, such as Isa 59:2 where we are told that our sin separates us from God. According to a full reading of Scripture, spiritual life is being in personal relationship with God, and spiritual death is not having a personal relationship with God. Adam ate from the tree and died spiritually because his sin separated him from God, the origin of both physical and spiritual life.

Therefore, Adam died spiritually the moment he disobeyed God, not physically....continuing...

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Was this only because he sinned? No, it was because God originally created mankind as mortal. There is absolutely no text that you can provide that states directly or indirectly, or that insinuates or implies, that God created mankind to be immortal...particularly because that does not work with His Plan of the Ages. Continuing...

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"

Here, to summarize, God said that Adam just ate from the tree he was commanded not to eat from, and now he has sinned and is a state of sin. God says that He must do something to prevent Adam from also partaking from the tree of life "and live forever" in that state of sin. If Adam was created to be immortal in flesh, him sinning would NOT have changed that state of immortality.

What Scripture do you sight for assuming that God created Adam to be immortal, and then what Scripture do you sight for claiming that when Adam ate from the tree of life he lost his immortality? I know of none. Please show me because if I am wrong, I need to amend my theology to truth.

The very fact that God says He needs to remove Adam from the garden where the tree of life was at, so that he could not partake from it and become immortal, disproves your claim.

Here is your chance to provide Biblical evidence for your claim...a chance to show that what you have been taught in the past was not in error.

Blessings.

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Wow Did you ever mis read this chapter! Read it again maybe....and this time read it with no expectation but to see what it says....Genesis -2-3 You've taken the Word and changed it to mean what you want, instead of seeing what God said

​

 

[Shaolin]

Wow Did you ever mis read this chapter! Read it again maybe....and this time read it with no expectation but to see what it says....Genesis -2-3 You've taken the Word and changed it to mean what you want, instead of seeing what God said

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No, not really. In order for you to make any kind of coherent point, you need to tell me what you think the chapters say, specifically the texts that I gave. I cannot read your mind, and the text pretty much says what I explained. Just because I did not use the same terminology doesn't mean squat. I gave the texts, and then what they clearly state...if you disagree with my interpretation then please point out what you disagree with.

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[Butch5]

See, here's part of your problem...you think that anyone who disagrees with your unbiblical nonsense is touting an opinion, and not facts. You, sir, are the only one here giving your opinions.



I posted the facts of the meaning of the word you keep butchering, butch (good name for your character, by the way...). It is a dictionary and grammar of koine Greek...and it demonstrates the points that I have been making, and demonstrates that what you keep falling back upon is pure crap...you know...your unfounded opinions.



I have given you Scripture, along with a very Biblical scholar of koine Greek...not a commentator. Again, you are supposed to be 60 years old but still acting like a 12 year old.



Why not, you assume everything else out of your seat...why not that too.

I see that you are so steeped in your false bias that you can't see any truth, so I will just end this here.

Good luck...you need it.

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Do you have an example of that clear teaching in Scripture ?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Up until Adam disobeyed God and ate the fruit, he had no inkling that evil even existed...He was completely innocent. When he ate the fruit though.....thats when he got the knowledge, like God had it, of good and evil...That's when man entered the war as a pawn of satan, as one who satan uses as a weapon against God. The tree was in the garden because God wanted it there and it was HIS garden after all.

 

[Shaolin]

Do you have an example of that clear teaching in Scripture ?

I already have and you rejected it. When you reject the clear meaning of Scripture, it is you have failed, being found to cling to false doctrine.

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[Shaolin]

Up until Adam disobeyed God and ate the fruit, he had no inkling that evil even existed...He was completely innocent.

I agree...he didn't even know what evil or wickedness was, which leaves a kink in my neck because since he didn't completely understand what all of God's words meant, he didn't know what God was talking about...right? I mean, did Adam understand what "you will surely die" meant? Somehow, I don't think he really had a "balls to bones" understanding of what God was telling Him. Then again, God could have giving him supernatural understanding, but we don't read anywhere that He did.

When he ate the fruit though.....thats when he got the knowledge, like God had it, of good and evil...That's when man entered the war as a pawn of satan, as one who satan uses as a weapon against God.

Agreed.

The tree was in the garden because God wanted it there and it was HIS garden after all.

Sure...that is possible. It is possible that He just put it there for no...for lack of a better way to say it...no real reason. But it still bothers me in the back of my mind...since Adam was not created immortal, and since the tree of life would have made him immortal had he ate from it...what gives? If Adam was immortal, then there was absolutely no reason to put it in the garden in the first place. Since Adam wasn't created immortal, even if he had eaten from the tree of life before he fell, God would have had to kick him out of the garden - no matter which tree he ate from, he would have had to be kicked out of the garden before he ate from the other tree, otherwise men would live forever in a sinful state...and that would doom mankind very quickly.

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[Admon Mikha'el]

I agree...he didn't even know what evil or wickedness was, which leaves a kink in my neck because since he didn't completely understand what all of God's words meant, he didn't know what God was talking about...right? I mean, did Adam understand what "you will surely die" meant? Somehow, I don't think he really had a "balls to bones" understanding of what God was telling Him. Then again, God could have giving him supernatural understanding, but we don't read anywhere that He did.



Agreed.



Sure...that is possible. It is possible that He just put it there for no...for lack of a better way to say it...no real reason. But it still bothers me in the back of my mind...since Adam was not created immortal, and since the tree of life would have made him immortal had he ate from it...what gives? If Adam was immortal, then there was absolutely no reason to put it in the garden in the first place. Since Adam wasn't created immortal, even if he had eaten from the tree of life before he fell, God would have had to kick him out of the garden - no matter which tree he ate from, he would have had to be kicked out of the garden before he ate from the other tree, otherwise men would live forever in a sinful state...and that would doom mankind very quickly.

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But Adam was made immortal Again...Its only when sin came in that Adam became mortal Death is a result of sin

 

[Butch5]

I already have and you rejected it. When you reject the clear meaning of Scripture, it is you have failed, being found to cling to false doctrine.

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The first passages spoke of possessing a spirit not being one. The last two passages didn't even speak of spirits.

Where would I find this clear teaching in Scripture?

 

[Shaolin]

But Adam was made immortal Again...Its only when sin came in that Adam became mortal Death is a result of sin

You have not yet provided any Scripture to support your claim here that Adam was created physically immortal. Just saying it does not make the claim legitimate.

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[Admon Mikha'el]

You have not yet provided any Scripture to support your claim here that Adam was created physically immortal. Just saying it does not make the claim legitimate.

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Read Genesis 2-3 and leave your assumptions out of it

 

[Shaolin]

The first passages spoke of possessing a spirit not being one. The last two passages didn't even speak of spirits.

Where would I find this clear teaching in Scripture?

Again, childish antics. Since you continue issuing forth with that kind of immature tendencies, I will no longer entertain you.

Have a nice life.

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[Butch5]

Again, childish antics. Since you continue issuing forth with that kind of immature tendencies, I will no longer entertain you.

Have a nice life.

..

It's not. Proper hermeneutics demand that we address the text properly. We can't make assumptions or draw inferences and then say the "the Bible says". It doesn't say, that's why we're making assumptions or drawing inferences. If we're going to say, "the Bible says", then we should have crystal clear statements saying so. For instance, Paul "teaches" that one is saved by grace through faith. We can find quite a few crystal clear statements saying that in Paul's writings. We don't have to assume anything or draw inferences to come to that conclusion. It's spelled out crystal clear.

On the other hand there is nothing in Scripture that states man "is" a spirit. On the contrary, we see that God told Adam he was dust. A crystal clear statement. And, in that statement God speaks to the person when He says to Adam, "you" are dust. He didnt say "your" body is dust. He also states plainly that man is flesh. Again, going to the essence of the person.

 

[Shaolin]

Read Genesis 2-3 and leave your assumptions out of it

As I told whats-his-name already, I make no assumptions. The text is clear and speaks for itself. If you have no Scripture to back up your claim that Adam was created immortal, then your claim is void, vacuous, and does not stand. No where in either chapter does it say, imply, or insinuate that Adam was created to be immortal in body.

Again, if you cannot provide Scripture to support your claim, then all you are arguing is YOUR assumption...not Scriptural fact.

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[Shaolin]

It's not. Proper hermeneutics demand that we address the text properly. We can't make assumptions or draw inferences and then say the "the Bible says". It doesn't say, that's why we're making assumptions or drawing inferences. If we're going to say, "the Bible says", then we should have crystal clear statements saying so. For instance, Paul "teaches" that one is saved by grace through faith. We can find quite a few crystal clear statements saying that in Paul's writings. We don't have to assume anything or draw inferences to come to that conclusion. It's spelled out crystal clear.

On the other hand there is nothing in Scripture that states man "is" a spirit. On the contrary, we see that God told Adam he was dust. A crystal clear statement. And, in that statement God speaks to the person when He says to Adam, "you" are dust. He didnt say "your" body is dust. He also states plainly that man is flesh. Again, going to the essence of the person.

Again you demonstrate that you know nothing about hermeneutics or valid research, examination of texts, or interpretation principles. When God says, "Lest he eat from the tree of life and live forever..." and then kicks him out of the garden, it is directly inferred by the text that Adam was NOT immortal.

Again, since you fail to use any real hermeneutic or common sense, logical reasoning, this is pointless banter. I am ending the nonsense now. I will not address you again on this topic, there's no reason to. You are a bias defender and will not seek the truth.

Have a nice life.

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[Admon Mikha'el]

As I told whats-his-name already, I make no assumptions. The text is clear and speaks for itself. If you have no Scripture to back up your claim that Adam was created immortal, then your claim is void, vacuous, and does not stand. No where in either chapter does it say, imply, or insinuate that Adam was created to be immortal in body.

Again, if you cannot provide Scripture to support your claim, then all you are arguing is YOUR assumption...not Scriptural fact.

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Ok You show me where God made man mortal

 

[Butch5]

Again you demonstrate that you know nothing about hermeneutics or valid research, examination of texts, or interpretation principles. When God says, "Lest he eat from the tree of life and live forever..." and then kicks him out of the garden, it is directly inferred by the text that Adam was NOT immortal.

Again, since you fail to use any real hermeneutic or common sense, logical reasoning, this is pointless banter. I am ending the nonsense now. I will not address you again on this topic, there's no reason to. You are a bias defender and will not seek the truth.

Have a nice life.

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The text doesn't infer. It's just text. It's the human mind that infers things from the text. But, as I pointed out, if we have to infer something, it's because it isn't stated in the text. Our inferences are only as correct as the presuppositions that generate them. Saying it is inferred by the text is to say it isn't in there.

 

[Shaolin]

Ok You show me where God made man mortal

So...in other words...you have no text that supports your claim. Accepted.

So, here it is again, which I already gave you once...

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"

1. If God created Adam to be immortal, then there was no reason to put the tree of life in the garden, because according to what God says above, the tree of life confers immortality to the human body.
2. If Adam was created immortal in body, then there is absolutely NO REASON for God to say what He does say here in the highlighted section...because he would already be immortal. Immortal means to live forever, if Adam was immortal, then he didn't need to eat from the tree of life in order to become immortal...because he would already have been immortal.

This is called deductive reasoning, reading what is directly implied by the words of the text. This is how most of Scripture should be interpreted, because if we do not engage our brains when reading and studying Scripture, we WILL come to false conclusions and interpretation.

Blessings

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[Admon Mikha'el]

So...in other words...you have no text that supports your claim. Accepted.

So, here it is again, which I already gave you once...

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"

1. If God created Adam to be immortal, then there was no reason to put the tree of life in the garden, because according to what God says above, the tree of life confers immortality to the human body.
2. If Adam was created immortal in body, then there is absolutely NO REASON for God to say what He does say here in the highlighted section...because he would already be immortal. Immortal means to live forever, if Adam was immortal, then he didn't need to eat from the tree of life in order to become immortal...because he would already have been immortal.

This is called deductive reasoning, reading what is directly implied by the words of the text. This is how most of Scripture should be interpreted, because if we do not engage our brains when reading and studying Scripture, we WILL come to false conclusions and interpretation.

Blessings

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I gave you the scriptures for that but you stubbornly insist on telling God what He means when He speaks. It seems obvious that you and I have no basis for conversation.

 

[Shaolin]

I gave you the scriptures for that but you stubbornly insist on telling God what He means when He speaks. It seems obvious that you and I have no basis for conversation.

LOL!!! REALLY!

You make an unfound statement and then...after TWICE being asked to support your claim with Scripture, and you can't...THEN to save face (under the table) you come back with that nonsense, claiming that I am stubborn and telling God what He means.

Sorry, but we have no basis for conversation here because you hold to unbiblical beliefs that cannot be supported by Scripture, and have no clue about Biblical hermeneutics which demonstrates when we are wrong in our interpretations. I don't tell God what He means - His WORDS tell you what He means, but you don't listen to His Words because it contradicts what you want to believe in error.

So be it.

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[Admon Mikha'el]

LOL!!! REALLY!

You make an unfound statement and then...after TWICE being asked to support your claim with Scripture, and you can't...THEN to save face (under the table) you come back with that nonsense, claiming that I am stubborn and telling God what He means.

Sorry, but we have no basis for conversation here because you hold to unbiblical beliefs that cannot be supported by Scripture, and have no clue about Biblical hermeneutics which demonstrates when we are wrong in our interpretations. I don't tell God what He means - His WORDS tell you what He means, but you don't listen to His Words because it contradicts what you want to believe in error.

So be it.
I

LOL!!! REALLY!

You make an unfound statement and then...after TWICE being asked to support your claim with Scripture, and you can't...THEN to save face (under the table) you come back with that nonsense, claiming that I am stubborn and telling God what He means.

Sorry, but we have no basis for conversation here because you hold to unbiblical beliefs that cannot be supported by Scripture, and have no clue about Biblical hermeneutics which demonstrates when we are wrong in our interpretations. I don't tell God what He means - His WORDS tell you what He means, but you don't listen to His Words because it contradicts what you want to believe in error.

So be it.

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Just give your head a good shake. You'll be ok, given time....I suggested that you read Genesis 2-3 and leave your assumptions out of it. Apparently you are not able to do that at this time.