Here's a good question for you!

[Shaolin]

"Weak hermeneutic". That's funny. I asked you for a single passage of Scripture showing that man is a spirit. You present several passages, not one of which said man is a spirit. Instead, you presented passages that showed possession of a spirit. That's some hermeneutic. Maybe now you could show us a single passage of Scripture that says man is a spirit.

Incorrect. I gave a number of passages that demonstrate that man is flesh and spirit. The poor judgment on your part to reject those clear passages is no fault of mine.

Man is not just a spirit, neither is he just flesh. You are playing games like an adolescent, and that does not make you look very good in people's eyes.

..

 

[Shaolin]

It's abundantly clear that you haven't done a study of the spirit of man in Scripture. If you had you would know that man is not a spirit. If as you say you haven't done a "detailed" study, implying that you have done some study of the subject, I can only conclude that your hermeneutic is severely lacking as there is NOTHING in Scripture that says man is a spirit. That idea comes solely from your presuppositions. It's interesting that you talk about being honest about someone's eternal destiny and then when it's shown that you're misleading them you refuse to reconsider your position. As I said in my original post, the reason you can't answer the question you were asked is because your presupposition is wrong. Maybe if you were willing to consider that you may be wrong, you would be able to answer the person you speak of in the OP. But, you did say the flesh hates to be wrong.

You are utilizing a very poor strategy, butch. Your fallacies are shining through for all to see. I have demonstrated with Scripture that man is tripartite: flesh, soul, and spirit, just as Scripture clearly teaches. You rely upon the false teachings of men, that began with the heretic Charles Taze Russel; it was false doctrine then, and it is false doctrine now.

You can continue with your nonsense all you want to, but those who are truth seekers can readily see from the Biblical evidence that I have provided thus far (and there is much more), that you are in doctrinal error. I have no presupposition; a well known and well codified fact of Scripture is not a presupposition. The only presupposition here is coming directly from you, and your false presupposition directly contradicts what Scripture both teaches and demonstrates.

Yes, the flesh hates to be wrong...and in your case that hatred comes shining through brightly. You have rejected the evidence of Scripture and use false dichotomies in a failing effort to explain those facts away because they destroy your false theology. Humble yourself before God, sir, because until you come to the place that you can, your bias will continue to prevent you from seeing the truth in Scripture.

..

 

[GodB4Us]

You are utilizing a very poor strategy, butch. Your fallacies are shining through for all to see. I have demonstrated with Scripture that man is tripartite: flesh, soul, and spirit, just as Scripture clearly teaches. You rely upon the false teachings of men, that began with the heretic Charles Taze Russel; it was false doctrine then, and it is false doctrine now.

You can continue with your nonsense all you want to, but those who are truth seekers can readily see from the Biblical evidence that I have provided thus far (and there is much more), that you are in doctrinal error. I have no presupposition; a well known and well codified fact of Scripture is not a presupposition. The only presupposition here is coming directly from you, and your false presupposition directly contradicts what Scripture both teaches and demonstrates.

Yes, the flesh hates to be wrong...and in your case that hatred comes shining through brightly. You have rejected the evidence of Scripture and use false dichotomies in a failing effort to explain those facts away because they destroy your false theology. Humble yourself before God, sir, because until you come to the place that you can, your bias will continue to prevent you from seeing the truth in Scripture.

..

@Butch5

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Shaolin]

Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge. Some seem to think if they talk down to people it makes them look more intelligent. You've got so much error here I don't know where to begin. You start by contradicting yourself. First you said,

Nice try...playing underhandedly again, I see. I am not arrogant, I am more knowledgeable than you are on Scripture, apparently, because I know how to study and research Scripture, whereas you make light of the fact of a complete Biblical hermeneutic. And I deeply suspect that you...thinking you are something when you are not...reject a full and complete Biblical hermeneutic because most of the principles utilized therein show conclusively that your belief on this point is unbiblical. Trying to get me upset with nonsense claims will not work...but nice try, every bias defender comes to use that tactic sooner or later (in your case, it was much sooner than normal).

"The word breath is used figuratively for spirit...but you reject that because it goes against your false bias."

So, you claim that I reject the idea that breath is used figuratively for spirit, yet I stated that several times throughout this thread. Then in the next sentence I said breath is used figuratively of God, which you acknowledged, who is spirit. If God is spirit and I said breath is used figuratively of God, then I've admitted that breath is used figuratively of spirit. This was your statement.

In context, butch, which you conveniently ignore in your rebuttal above, you only accept breath as spirit when it comes to God, not man. Keep trying, but you are no magician...speed shifting through definitions like evolutionists do will not help you against me. I have dealt with your kind now for over 30 years...the older they are, the worse they are.

"Yes...the word for breath is used figuratively for spirit when addressing God...and also when addressing human beings, which I demonstrated in other passages that I have yet to see your rebuttal on, so I will wait til we get there..."

However, you've not shown that spirit is used of a human being. Do human beings have flesh and bone? I think most of us, not pushing an agenda, would say yes. Let's look at what Jesus said.

Again, you revert to childish behavior because it suits the needs of your bias. Again...the word spirit (or, depending upon the sentence, car, covenant, sky, rock, house, or any number of subjects) do NOT have to be used in the text in order to be addressing said subject. Continuing to fall back on that childish nonsense will not only get you NOWHERE, because people can see the nonsense you are spouting, but it also makes you look very bad. How about listening for a change instead of defending your false bias?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:39 KJV)

According to Jesus a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone. Man has flesh and bone. In that statement Jesus was telling them that He is not a spirit. If Jesus was made, in all ways, like unto His brethren, and He's not a spirit, how can they be? They can't be.

Again...man is not only spirit...you are again playing childish games...are you on meds that hinder your reading comprehension? Or are you just a bias defender through and through? I will tell you this with all authority, bias defenders seldom make it to heaven....they are far too busy defending their nonsense and spend very little time with God Himself.

Really? Show us from Scripture. If you can't it's assumption. Gen.2:7 gives us a word picture of something being breathed out of God and into man.

No, Gen. 2:7 does not say that something of God is in every man, that is a false interpretation on your part. Acting moronically will not help you either. Scripture tells us that sin separates us from God, therefore a sinner will have nothing of God dwelling within him. Thus, the "spirit" that you claim as only breath from God is NOT God, or any part of Him, it is a spirit that God created within each person at conception. If you think a sinner has some of God in him, then this point of contention on the spirit of man is the least of your theological problems. You demonstrate with every rebuttal that you stand in ever growing darkness. If you really need me to show you the passages, then I guess you are not as astute in Scripture like you apparently think you are.

when it's used as spirit it's metaphorical also.

Correct, but YOU cannot pick and choose when YOU want it to mean spirit or breath, and that is EXACTLY what you are doing. The context and text give what the meaning of a word is, NOT the reader like in your case. When you do that, you are giving personal subjective interpretation which NEVER leads to truth. If you cannot lay aside your bias and look at the text, context, and words objectively, then you will never be able to come to the Spirit's intended meaning in a text. So far, you have demonstrated exactly what.

I addressed the passages you gave that didn't show that man is a spirit. We're still waiting for a single passage....

Nice try...but I already cut you off at the pass on this point. You have not discredited what I said about those texts to anyone but YOURSELF...that should be a hint to you. No one else here (apparently) sides with you on that point, which, again, should be a hint that your claim is not accepted by anyone but yourself (again, that should be a huge hint to you).

Wow, talk about assumptions. "Every commentator and theologian worth his salt" = all the ones that agree with you, correct?

No, the ones who walk with God and have studied the Scriptures enough to know what they are talking about. Only you (because you have lost the argument) would come back with that nonsense.

I don't care what commentators think, I see commentators that are wrong all over the place.

True...calvinists...and liberal scholars...and those who claim to be saved but are not (like those who now say that God is OK with homosexuals and the like); NOT the people that I am talking about. Apparently your life experience is very limited.

One can find a commentator that agrees with just about every position out there.

True, and that's why I said "worth their salt," who are in relationship with God and not someone sitting at home telling people that they don't attend any church because all churches are in error. Granted, I have not seen you claim this yet, but it would not surprise me if (and when) you do...

It's clear you have nothing from Scripture or you'd probably have posted it.

Again, your rejection of the passages does not do any damage to what I have stated. The truth is there for those to see who are indeed truth seekers, and not blind bias defenders such as you are demonstrating yourself to be.

On the other hand 1 Chron 10 tells us plainly that Saul sought a information from a familiar spirit which we know was a demon. You can go with commentators and perpetuate error, I'll go with the Scriptures.

Again, the passage demonstrated very clearly that Samuel came up, not a demon. The FACT that you reject the clear Word of God is truly telling, you demonstrate that you will reject the Scriptures in favor of your false doctrine, which makes you a false teacher...a wolf in sheep's clothing that both Jesus and Paul warned us about.

Well, let's see, Saul perceived that it was Samuel.

We are NOT talking about what Saul perceived...we are talking about what Scripture clearly states and implies. Scripture says that Samuel spoke, it does not say that a familiar spirit disguising itself as Samuel spoke...therefore, your childish rant is put to the gallows.

So, how would we expect the narrative to go? The book is a historical record of what happened. If they thought they were speaking to Samuel, then they're going to record it as Samuel.

So then, you don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture...that the Holy Spirit was not the one writing Scripture through the hands of chosen men...more evidence that you are a false teacher. If the Holy Spirit tells us that it was Samuel, then it was Samuel, and you are a deceived teacher of deception...deceived and deceiving others, just like Paul warns about.

They're not going to say, well, Saul perceived that it was Samuel, but, you know, maybe it wasn't Samuel, maybe it was demon or maybe it was ghost, or a angel, or something else. It's recorded from the perspective of those who were there. However, as I pointed out 1 Chronicles 10 clears up any question by telling us that Saul inquired of a familiar spirit. We know that the woman saw gods, she told Saul she saw gods. The Scriptures tell us that the "gods" of the nations are demons.

16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear. (Deut. 32:16-17 NKJ)

This has nothing to do with what the text demonstrates...you are again reaching for straws in order to protect your false bias, rather than amending your bias to the clear teaching of Scripture.

Saw (Saul, you mean) was the king of Israel. I think it's a pretty good be that he knew the gods of the pagans were demons. The woman said she saw gods. She saw demons.
I'm really going to have to question your hermeneutics if you believe that the prophet of God answered Saul through a demon possessed women. Again, where did Samuel supposedly get the answer? It couldn't have been from God because God wasn't answering Saul any more.

Samuel was a prophet, and apparently God allowed him to give Saul what was going to take place...just as Scripture clearly dictates. You can try all you want to explain away what the Scripture text tells you to your face, but that only means that you reject what God says in the text...which means that you are calling God a liar.

Wow, now you know what Saul thought? Awesome hermeneutic!

Don't be idiotic. If he thought he would have been speaking to a demon, then he would not have gone to see the woman. You are acting moronic here again...sperting anything from your mouth in order to protect your false bias. Again, the more you talk, the deeper in darkness you demonstrate yourself to be in. Here is some Scripture for you...

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1 John 2:11
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

This is why you cannot see truth, because the darkness you are in blinds your eyes to truth, which is why you can't see where you are headed.

And, making assumptions about Scripture is spiritually mature? You said Saul didn't believe it was a demon that he would have spoken to, Yet 1 Chron 10 says that Saul inquired of a demon. So, do I believe your mind reading abilities or do I believe the Scriptures?

There's that childish non-thinking again. The text does not say that Saul believed he would be speaking to a demon, moron; and the context of the entire chapter shows that he wanted to speak to Samuel, not a demon. Your reading comprehension really is impaired, you can't even understand a simple sentence in English.

Then you obviously don't know what they are.

Oh, I know what they are, but like your stretched imagination concerning the topic, you also stretch the meaning of what they are, too.

Simple. If your doctrine is valid it should stand on its own. Yet, you haven't presented a single passage of Scripture stating that man is spirit. You keep claiming it's clear Biblical teaching. If that's the case the you should have plenty of evidence to prove it. Yet, here we are still waiting for the first passage.

Then you don't know what "standing on its own" means...it does not mean your subjective eisegesis of the text. The evidence does stand, again, to all but yourself because you are a bias defender, and you will die on this hill because you can't tell the difference between facts and your own biased conjecture. You are in trouble, sir...grave trouble. Because if you get this simple fact of Scripture wrong (which it has been demonstrated that you do), then how wrong are you when it comes to salvtion and maintaining your state of having eternal life. A little leaven corrupts the whole batch...

There's nothing childish about being accurate with the text.

That's just the point, you pervert the text, you are not being accurate with it at all...because you don't apply a complete Biblical hermeneutic to your 'study' of Scripture, and since you don't, you really don't know how to study it, and therefore you get things like this simple doctrine all jacked up. You reject what God says in the text because your bias tells you to, that is not what a person who is supposed to have the Spirit of God dwelling in him does. The Spirit of truth does not reject what He Himself wrote in God's Word, and that is exactly what you are doing.

If you were you wouldn't fall for this false doctrine.

I don't fall for the false doctrine that man is not flesh and spirit, that is your false doctrinal claim, one which you cannot prove (in your own mind) without assigning false interpretations to a text, which the text and context does not support.

You claim it was Samuel's spirit, yet the passage says no such thing. So, either you're making an assumption based on your presuppositions or you have other Scripture that speaks of Samuel's spirit interacting in the world.

I don't claim, the Scriptural text demonstrates it. When I show you something that Scripture demonstrates, then it is no claim, it is Scripture.

I thought you said you know hermeneutics. Your replies reveal otherwise.

More childish nonsense instead of coming to your senses. You can read my book (if you still can read, your comprehension seems way off), the whole first part of it regards a complete hermeneutic...which you do not use at all. Your replies demonstrate that you do not know Scripture as well as you think you do.

It's clear that your presuppositions are driving your interpretation.

Negative, butch...you are again speaking of yourself and your false suppositions. I gave Scripture...clear Scripture...and you reject it because your false doctrine tells you too. But, nice try...you have still lost.

You state things that are so easily refuted. Like above, your claim that it was Samuel's spirit that spoke to Saul when the passage says no such thing. Saying "anyone with a brain" doesn't make your statement valid. What it does is show that you have a lack of support for you claim. It's kind of like that saying about preachers, if you have the evidence, you speak to the congregation. If you have a little evidence, you yell, if you have no evidence, you yell and pound on the podium. That's what we're getting here.

You are being moronic again. Samuel's spirit appeared, not a demon. How do we know this, because that is what the Scripture clearly states. That fact is augmented by the fact that Scripture states, "Samuel said..." If it was not Samuel, then Scripture is lying and then you 'might' be right. However, God does not lie, neither does His Spirit...therefore, that is all the evidence needed to put your false doctrine in the garbage.

Here too, what you claim is easily refuted.

You are full of yourself...you have not refuted anything that I have given so far.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. (1 Sam. 28:13 KJV)
And the king said to her, Fear not; tell me whom thou has seen. And the woman said to him, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. (1 Sam. 28:13 LXA)
1 Samuel 28:13 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ ὁ βασιλεύς μὴ φοβοῦ εἰπὸν τίνα ἑόρακας καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Θεοὺς ἑόρακα ἀναβαίνοντας ἐκ τῆς γῆς (1 Sam. 28:13 BGT)
WTT 1 Samuel 28:13 וַיֹּ֙אמֶר לָ֥הּ הַמֶּ֛לֶךְ אַל־תִּֽירְאִ֖י כִּ֣י מָ֣ה רָאִ֑ית וַתֹּ֤אמֶר הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אֶל־שָׁא֔וּל אֱלֹהִ֥ים רָאִ֖יתִי עֹלִ֥ים מִן־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
(1 Sam. 28:13 WTT)

Even Paul said to the Corinthians, 'though there be many gods'. The woman saw elohiym. She didn't see spirits or a spirit, she saw gods.

What the woman thought she saw as a god, Scripture tells you to your face that it was Samuel. Again, you are grasping at straws to protect your false doctrine, and you fail...miserably to all but yourself.

For someone who talks about hermeneutics and being true to Scripture, you're not being very true to Scripture yourself. You accuse me of being underhanded, yet here you say she didn't see gods when the text plainly says she saw gods.

No, the text says that the woman said she saw gods, there is a difference which your reading comprehension - stymied by your false bias - is not allowing you to understand. Ask anyone else...

Also, your smug nonsense is all your own. I am not arrogant, I do know what I am talking about, and you are steeped in spiritual blindness from the deception that you cling to.

Again, nice try, but you lost a few posts back.

..

 

[Shaolin]

@Butch5

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Nice...but posting passages without any explanation as to why really does not help...I am not a mind reader!

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[GodB4Us]

Nice...but posting passages without any explanation as to why really does not help...I am not a mind reader!

..

It seems the exchange between you & @Butch5 should stop with looking down on each other when it is on God to minister in causing the increase.

Butch5 "Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge."

Shaolin "Nice try...playing underhandedly again, I see. I am not arrogant, I am more knowledgeable than you are on Scripture..... Don't be idiotic...... There's that childish non-thinking again....."

When a discussion becomes a biting argument, I fail to see how anyone can win the other over in any attempt of edification for Him to minister. Seems the both of you could use a break.

 

[Butch5]

It seems the exchange between you & @Butch5 should stop with looking down on each other when it is on God to minister in causing the increase.

Butch5 "Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge."

Shaolin "Nice try...playing underhandedly again, I see. I am not arrogant, I am more knowledgeable than you are on Scripture..... Don't be idiotic...... There's that childish non-thinking again....."

When a discussion becomes a biting argument, I fail to see how anyone can win the other over in any attempt of edification for Him to minister. Seems the both of you could use a break.

GodB4Us,

I'm not trying to win him over. I only reply to show others who are interested the truth of what the Scriptures teach. It's been my experience that the other person is never won over. However, I have had people who I never saw post anything send me private messages thanking me for things I've pointed out in debates. That's why I debate. It's for those who watch and rarely ever say anything.

 

[Butch5]

Nice try...playing underhandedly again, I see. I am not arrogant, I am more knowledgeable than you are on Scripture, apparently, because I know how to study and research Scripture, whereas you make light of the fact of a complete Biblical hermeneutic. And I deeply suspect that you...thinking you are something when you are not...reject a full and complete Biblical hermeneutic because most of the principles utilized therein show conclusively that your belief on this point is unbiblical. Trying to get me upset with nonsense claims will not work...but nice try, every bias defender comes to use that tactic sooner or later (in your case, it was much sooner than normal).




In context, butch, which you conveniently ignore in your rebuttal above, you only accept breath as spirit when it comes to God, not man. Keep trying, but you are no magician...speed shifting through definitions like evolutionists do will not help you against me. I have dealt with your kind now for over 30 years...the older they are, the worse they are.



Again, you revert to childish behavior because it suits the needs of your bias. Again...the word spirit (or, depending upon the sentence, car, covenant, sky, rock, house, or any number of subjects) do NOT have to be used in the text in order to be addressing said subject. Continuing to fall back on that childish nonsense will not only get you NOWHERE, because people can see the nonsense you are spouting, but it also makes you look very bad. How about listening for a change instead of defending your false bias?



Again...man is not only spirit...you are again playing childish games...are you on meds that hinder your reading comprehension? Or are you just a bias defender through and through? I will tell you this with all authority, bias defenders seldom make it to heaven....they are far too busy defending their nonsense and spend very little time with God Himself.



No, Gen. 2:7 does not say that something of God is in every man, that is a false interpretation on your part. Acting moronically will not help you either. Scripture tells us that sin separates us from God, therefore a sinner will have nothing of God dwelling within him. Thus, the "spirit" that you claim as only breath from God is NOT God, or any part of Him, it is a spirit that God created within each person at conception. If you think a sinner has some of God in him, then this point of contention on the spirit of man is the least of your theological problems. You demonstrate with every rebuttal that you stand in ever growing darkness. If you really need me to show you the passages, then I guess you are not as astute in Scripture like you apparently think you are.



Correct, but YOU cannot pick and choose when YOU want it to mean spirit or breath, and that is EXACTLY what you are doing. The context and text give what the meaning of a word is, NOT the reader like in your case. When you do that, you are giving personal subjective interpretation which NEVER leads to truth. If you cannot lay aside your bias and look at the text, context, and words objectively, then you will never be able to come to the Spirit's intended meaning in a text. So far, you have demonstrated exactly what.



Nice try...but I already cut you off at the pass on this point. You have not discredited what I said about those texts to anyone but YOURSELF...that should be a hint to you. No one else here (apparently) sides with you on that point, which, again, should be a hint that your claim is not accepted by anyone but yourself (again, that should be a huge hint to you).



No, the ones who walk with God and have studied the Scriptures enough to know what they are talking about. Only you (because you have lost the argument) would come back with that nonsense.



True...calvinists...and liberal scholars...and those who claim to be saved but are not (like those who now say that God is OK with homosexuals and the like); NOT the people that I am talking about. Apparently your life experience is very limited.



True, and that's why I said "worth their salt," who are in relationship with God and not someone sitting at home telling people that they don't attend any church because all churches are in error. Granted, I have not seen you claim this yet, but it would not surprise me if (and when) you do...



Again, your rejection of the passages does not do any damage to what I have stated. The truth is there for those to see who are indeed truth seekers, and not blind bias defenders such as you are demonstrating yourself to be.



Again, the passage demonstrated very clearly that Samuel came up, not a demon. The FACT that you reject the clear Word of God is truly telling, you demonstrate that you will reject the Scriptures in favor of your false doctrine, which makes you a false teacher...a wolf in sheep's clothing that both Jesus and Paul warned us about.



We are NOT talking about what Saul perceived...we are talking about what Scripture clearly states and implies. Scripture says that Samuel spoke, it does not say that a familiar spirit disguising itself as Samuel spoke...therefore, your childish rant is put to the gallows.



So then, you don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture...that the Holy Spirit was not the one writing Scripture through the hands of chosen men...more evidence that you are a false teacher. If the Holy Spirit tells us that it was Samuel, then it was Samuel, and you are a deceived teacher of deception...deceived and deceiving others, just like Paul warns about.



This has nothing to do with what the text demonstrates...you are again reaching for straws in order to protect your false bias, rather than amending your bias to the clear teaching of Scripture.



Samuel was a prophet, and apparently God allowed him to give Saul what was going to take place...just as Scripture clearly dictates. You can try all you want to explain away what the Scripture text tells you to your face, but that only means that you reject what God says in the text...which means that you are calling God a liar.



Don't be idiotic. If he thought he would have been speaking to a demon, then he would not have gone to see the woman. You are acting moronic here again...sperting anything from your mouth in order to protect your false bias. Again, the more you talk, the deeper in darkness you demonstrate yourself to be in. Here is some Scripture for you...

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1 John 2:11
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

This is why you cannot see truth, because the darkness you are in blinds your eyes to truth, which is why you can't see where you are headed.



There's that childish non-thinking again. The text does not say that Saul believed he would be speaking to a demon, moron; and the context of the entire chapter shows that he wanted to speak to Samuel, not a demon. Your reading comprehension really is impaired, you can't even understand a simple sentence in English.



Oh, I know what they are, but like your stretched imagination concerning the topic, you also stretch the meaning of what they are, too.



Then you don't know what "standing on its own" means...it does not mean your subjective eisegesis of the text. The evidence does stand, again, to all but yourself because you are a bias defender, and you will die on this hill because you can't tell the difference between facts and your own biased conjecture. You are in trouble, sir...grave trouble. Because if you get this simple fact of Scripture wrong (which it has been demonstrated that you do), then how wrong are you when it comes to salvtion and maintaining your state of having eternal life. A little leaven corrupts the whole batch...



That's just the point, you pervert the text, you are not being accurate with it at all...because you don't apply a complete Biblical hermeneutic to your 'study' of Scripture, and since you don't, you really don't know how to study it, and therefore you get things like this simple doctrine all jacked up. You reject what God says in the text because your bias tells you to, that is not what a person who is supposed to have the Spirit of God dwelling in him does. The Spirit of truth does not reject what He Himself wrote in God's Word, and that is exactly what you are doing.



I don't fall for the false doctrine that man is not flesh and spirit, that is your false doctrinal claim, one which you cannot prove (in your own mind) without assigning false interpretations to a text, which the text and context does not support.



I don't claim, the Scriptural text demonstrates it. When I show you something that Scripture demonstrates, then it is no claim, it is Scripture.



More childish nonsense instead of coming to your senses. You can read my book (if you still can read, your comprehension seems way off), the whole first part of it regards a complete hermeneutic...which you do not use at all. Your replies demonstrate that you do not know Scripture as well as you think you do.



Negative, butch...you are again speaking of yourself and your false suppositions. I gave Scripture...clear Scripture...and you reject it because your false doctrine tells you too. But, nice try...you have still lost.



You are being moronic again. Samuel's spirit appeared, not a demon. How do we know this, because that is what the Scripture clearly states. That fact is augmented by the fact that Scripture states, "Samuel said..." If it was not Samuel, then Scripture is lying and then you 'might' be right. However, God does not lie, neither does His Spirit...therefore, that is all the evidence needed to put your false doctrine in the garbage.



You are full of yourself...you have not refuted anything that I have given so far.



What the woman thought she saw as a god, Scripture tells you to your face that it was Samuel. Again, you are grasping at straws to protect your false doctrine, and you fail...miserably to all but yourself.



No, the text says that the woman said she saw gods, there is a difference which your reading comprehension - stymied by your false bias - is not allowing you to understand. Ask anyone else...

Also, your smug nonsense is all your own. I am not arrogant, I do know what I am talking about, and you are steeped in spiritual blindness from the deception that you cling to.

Again, nice try, but you lost a few posts back.

..

So. let's take this from the top. I asked you to present just one passage of Scripture saying man is a spirit. You presented several passages which showed that man "possesses" a spirit. Possessing a spirit and being a spirit are two different things. So, man having a spirit does not prove that man is a spirit. So, those passages didn't prove your point.

For the second attempt you appealed to the passage where Samuel was supposedly called up from the dead. Then you claim this proves man is a spirit, yet the passage doesn't even mention the word spirit. The passage tells us that she saw gods, elohyim. She didn't see spirits. So this passage clearly doesn't prove that man is a spirit.

For the third attempt you appealed to the souls under the alter in Revelation. This passage like that of Samuel doesn't speak of spirits. They are souls under the alter, not spirits. You tried to conflate the two, however, as I pointed out, those two are not interchangeable.

When the disciples thought that they had seen a spirit, Jesus said, 'a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have'. Man has flesh and bone. This proves beyond doubt that man is not a spirit. You can't say I have it out of context because Jesus' statement was made explicitly because the disciples thought they saw a spirit.

The first attempt was using the wrong words, words showing possession rather than person. The second was to assume something that simply isn't in the passage. The third, was to assume something that wasn't in the passage and to conflate it with what was in the passage. What kind of hermeneutics is that?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

If God created mankind as physically mortal (which according to Scripture He did) because that was a huge part of His plan of the ages, why did He put the Tree of Life in the garden of Eden where Adam might have ate from it and become immortal (physically)?

It is rare (after years of answering questions about the Bible and Christianity) that someone asks me something that I cannot readily answer...so while I am doing research in order to answer this person, I thought I would see if anyone here has had any insight on this point that might help me answer it.

Blessings!

Your premise is that God created man to be mortal...He did not. Man became mortal when he disobeyed God and bowed his knee to Satan..

 

[GodB4Us]

GodB4Us,

I'm not trying to win him over. I only reply to show others who are interested the truth of what the Scriptures teach. It's been my experience that the other person is never won over. However, I have had people who I never saw post anything send me private messages thanking me for things I've pointed out in debates. That's why I debate. It's for those who watch and rarely ever say anything.

There is sharing the truth and then there is giving personal attacks when doing it. You can share the truth without resorting to personal attacks. Surely nobody has been sending you private messages for putting somebody down, right? But for sharing the truth. Whether or not the believer you are having a discussion with, sees the edification by the Lord or not; we are to be gentle, patient and ministering in meekness with His help because you never know that somewhere down the line, the seed & the water the Lord has given you t share, may finally be received, but if all that your opponent is going to remember is the put downs, well, it just goes to show that it is better to just share the truth & not give personal attack.

 

[Butch5]

There is sharing the truth and then there is giving personal attacks when doing it. You can share the truth without resorting to personal attacks. Surely nobody has been sending you private messages for putting somebody down, right? But for sharing the truth. Whether or not the believer you are having a discussion with, sees the edification by the Lord or not; we are to be gentle, patient and ministering in meekness with His help because you never know that somewhere down the line, the seed & the water the Lord has given you t share, may finally be received, but if all that your opponent is going to remember is the put downs, well, it just goes to show that it is better to just share the truth & not give personal attack.

I didn't give give personal attacks

 

[GodB4Us]

I didn't give give personal attacks

Butch5 "Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge."

What kind of a response is this? Since it is on God to cause the increase, then arrogance or not, the opposition is less likely to yield to what you share as the truth, having been offended.

Debasing or belittling or arguing the "intelligence" of the opposition, has nothing to do with sharing the truth when only God can enable them to have eyes that see & ears that hear..

If the opposition is lacking knowledge, then all that is required is to share the truth; trusting Him that if he does not receive the truth now, maybe down the road He may cause the increase.

Once both sides of any discussion becomes an argument like that, then both sides should take a break.

That is all I need to share at this time. I can only hope that you guys will return the favor when you see me doing that. I am trusting Him to help me not to do that, but scripture below does say how we are to watch over each other like that.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 "Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge."

What kind of a response is this? Since it is on God to cause the increase, then arrogance or not, the opposition is less likely to yield to what you share as the truth, having been offended.

Debasing or belittling or arguing the "intelligence" of the opposition, has nothing to do with sharing the truth when only God can enable them to have eyes that see & ears that hear..

If the opposition is lacking knowledge, then all that is required is to share the truth; trusting Him that if he does not receive the truth now, maybe down the road He may cause the increase.

Once both sides of any discussion becomes an argument like that, then both sides should take a break.

That is all I need to share at this time. I can only hope that you guys will return the favor when you see me doing that. I am trusting Him to help me not to do that, but scripture below does say how we are to watch over each other like that.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I don't see that as a personal attack. I didn't question his intelligence. What I addressed was his attitude. He's been talking down to me almost from the very beginning. I simply made note of it.

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother Shaolin, I cannot tell you that I know since I was not there. lol BUT!!! I noticed one point after man's fall,they could never return to the Garden again, which tells me that the Garden was the only place of life Eternal. The Lord made man in his image not with the same wisdom. Hence God knowing what Adam would think and do, he was never concerned that Adam would pick the correct tree to eat. What do you think was more important to Adam food, or a helpmate?? hehe Just a thought Bro, cannot prove by scripture. Hope that helps.

 

[GodB4Us]

I don't see that as a personal attack. I didn't question his intelligence. What I addressed was his attitude. He's been talking down to me almost from the very beginning. I simply made note of it.

Well, his talking down to you is a personal attack when he was addressing you and your reciprocating in kind is the same. It is understandable & human to do so but scripture exhorts us not to return evil for evil, and yet we need His help to do that.

Just sticking to the issues is how a discussion may progress in these iron sharpen iron ministry from the Lord rather than addressing the poster as if berating their intelligence is somehow going to win either one of you over to the "truth" either one of you are sharing. That is when a discussion becomes an argument when going beyond sharing the truth in scripture to berating one another, hence biting and devouring one another when it is on God to cause the increase.

Have a blessed day in the Lord when you rely on Him to help you not argue the matter but simply sharing the truth in scripture, hoping in Him to enable the other to receive the correction & edification in scripture.

 

[Shaolin]

Tell me, how does Zhodiates opinion prove your point?

See, here's part of your problem...you think that anyone who disagrees with your unbiblical nonsense is touting an opinion, and not facts. You, sir, are the only one here giving your opinions.

What do I care about what someone else thinks something means.

I posted the facts of the meaning of the word you keep butchering, butch (good name for your character, by the way...). It is a dictionary and grammar of koine Greek...and it demonstrates the points that I have been making, and demonstrates that what you keep falling back upon is pure crap...you know...your unfounded opinions.

Show me Scripture, oh wait, you can't. I gave you Scripture, you give me a commentator.

I have given you Scripture, along with a very Biblical scholar of koine Greek...not a commentator. Again, you are supposed to be 60 years old but still acting like a 12 year old.

Can I assume from that that your source of authority is Commentary and not Scripture?

Why not, you assume everything else out of your seat...why not that too.

I see that you are so steeped in your false bias that you can't see any truth, so I will just end this here.

Good luck...you need it.

..

 

[Shaolin]

It seems the exchange between you & @Butch5 should stop with looking down on each other when it is on God to minister in causing the increase.

Butch5 "Firstly, your arrogance speaks volumes. It's been my experience that arrogance is often used to disguise a lack of knowledge."

Shaolin "Nice try...playing underhandedly again, I see. I am not arrogant, I am more knowledgeable than you are on Scripture..... Don't be idiotic...... There's that childish non-thinking again....."

When a discussion becomes a biting argument, I fail to see how anyone can win the other over in any attempt of edification for Him to minister. Seems the both of you could use a break.

Yeah, I am done with him. He is too biased and can't see beyond that bias, so there's no helping him. Just like with alcoholics, they first must understand and acknowledge their problem before they can be helped.

..

 

[Shaolin]

Your premise is that God created man to be mortal...He did not. Man became mortal when he disobeyed God and bowed his knee to Satan..

And your Scriptural evidence for that is...what?

Here is what the texts state again...

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

First, God told Adam that the day he ate from the tree, he would die. The natural thing to think is that God meant physical death...

Genesis 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Adam ate from the tree, yet he did not die physically. Since we see God's words above, the only logical conclusion is that God meant spiritual death. This is ratified in other Scriptures, such as Isa 59:2 where we are told that our sin separates us from God. According to a full reading of Scripture, spiritual life is being in personal relationship with God, and spiritual death is not having a personal relationship with God. Adam ate from the tree and died spiritually because his sin separated him from God, the origin of both physical and spiritual life.

Therefore, Adam died spiritually the moment he disobeyed God, not physically....continuing...

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Was this only because he sinned? No, it was because God originally created mankind as mortal. There is absolutely no text that you can provide that states directly or indirectly, or that insinuates or implies, that God created mankind to be immortal...particularly because that does not work with His Plan of the Ages. Continuing...

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"

Here, to summarize, God said that Adam just ate from the tree he was commanded not to eat from, and now he has sinned and is a state of sin. God says that He must do something to prevent Adam from also partaking from the tree of life "and live forever" in that state of sin. If Adam was created to be immortal in flesh, him sinning would NOT have changed that state of immortality.

What Scripture do you sight for assuming that God created Adam to be immortal, and then what Scripture do you sight for claiming that when Adam ate from the tree of life he lost his immortality? I know of none. Please show me because if I am wrong, I need to amend my theology to truth.

The very fact that God says He needs to remove Adam from the garden where the tree of life was at, so that he could not partake from it and become immortal, disproves your claim.

Here is your chance to provide Biblical evidence for your claim...a chance to show that what you have been taught in the past was not in error.

Blessings.

..

 

[Shaolin]

There is sharing the truth and then there is giving personal attacks when doing it. You can share the truth without resorting to personal attacks. Surely nobody has been sending you private messages for putting somebody down, right? But for sharing the truth. Whether or not the believer you are having a discussion with, sees the edification by the Lord or not; we are to be gentle, patient and ministering in meekness with His help because you never know that somewhere down the line, the seed & the water the Lord has given you t share, may finally be received, but if all that your opponent is going to remember is the put downs, well, it just goes to show that it is better to just share the truth & not give personal attack.

The problem is that what he was sharing is not truth. If it was truth, then Scripture would actually say what he twists it to say.

..

 

[Shaolin]

Brother Shaolin, I cannot tell you that I know since I was not there. lol BUT!!! I noticed one point after man's fall,they could never return to the Garden again, which tells me that the Garden was the only place of life Eternal. The Lord made man in his image not with the same wisdom. Hence God knowing what Adam would think and do, he was never concerned that Adam would pick the correct tree to eat. What do you think was more important to Adam food, or a helpmate?? hehe Just a thought Bro, cannot prove by scripture. Hope that helps.

Yah, I have read many commentators on this subject and there are almost about as many 'answers' as people that address them. It seems that no one knows why the tree of life was placed there, and even after praying about it for over a week, I still have no answer from the Lord. I am thinking that this is just one of those details that God does not see fit to let us know...not right now, anyway!

Blessings!

..