Where do we go when we die?
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I am very interested but not concerned, I trust the Lord!
Saying that, let's not forget God said himself " that He is a Spirit and we MUST worship Him in Spirit and Truth"!
The Truth of the matter is that we will all be Spirits soon and we will be with God or without....I choose with!!
In His world there is no up , down, or time as we know it; everything is possible and instant.
Maybe we go somewhere and wait but I am sure it will be just like yesterday!!
@Born Again 2004 --- you put Lots of emphasis on the MUST worship Him in Spirit and Truth!" In other words He wants our worship because He alone is our creator/ Savior.
Well -- we all have a soul and that soul with spend eternity either in The New Jerusalem or in the lake of fire and brimstone. It's our decision to make. And Of Course you'd choose to be With God. But it doesn't happen on our choosing to be with Him. Like saying "I want to end up with God" and it will happen. Doesn't happen that way.
To be saved -- 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross, in our place, that He was buried and that He rose again the 3rd day.
Romans 10: 9-10 that we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus.
When a person dies, there is no waiting around. We're either present with the Lord or we're in Hades waiting for final judgement day and then end up in lake of fire and brimstone.
There's no purgatory to wait in and be cleaned up for heaven.
Well -- we all have a soul and that soul with spend eternity either in The New Jerusalem or in the lake of fire and brimstone. It's our decision to make. And Of Course you'd choose to be With God. But it doesn't happen on our choosing to be with Him. Like saying "I want to end up with God" and it will happen. Doesn't happen that way.
To be saved -- 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross, in our place, that He was buried and that He rose again the 3rd day.
Romans 10: 9-10 that we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus.
When a person dies, there is no waiting around. We're either present with the Lord or we're in Hades waiting for final judgement day and then end up in lake of fire and brimstone.
There's no purgatory to wait in and be cleaned up for heaven.
Brother-Paul
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Providing we are truly born again we have no reason to be concerned, shall we say it is all in good hands.
And that we do \o/
Yes we choose but God chose first.
Everything according to God's will
Realistically when we think about it, there has to be a waiting place, Paradise we are told, we will be comforted we are told.
So I guess it is fair to say, subject to when we die, or when the Rapture takes place, see you (and all saved souls) in Paradise the place of waiting or in our eternal home.
That sounds absolutely brilliant, absolutely amazing, but just wait till we get to our eternal home, we will all be in total awe.
Brother-Paul
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Not quite right Sue sorry,
When a person dies, our Spirit returns to God who gave it, our body goes back to dust of the earth, our soul goes to Hades, in the Paradise section of Hades, not the torment section of Hades, a great gulf separates the two sections. We remain there until Judgement Day, Christians call it Resurrection Day.
Shalom
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Dear Miss Sue,
I can't argue with anything you say but the main point of my thread is God is a Spirit and soon we will be too, nothing of this Carnal Wolrd applies!
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I mean , it is His world that hopefully we all are to enter, isn't it?
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Besides the issue with the words for breath or spirit and soul. There is another issue that causes confusion. That is that some words are transliterated rather than translated. And, even worse is that some are both translated and transliterated depending on where they're used. It seems to me that this can only be theologically driven. Take for instance, Gen. 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (Gen. 2:8 KJV)
It says God planted a garden in Eden. The topic of this thread is "Where do we go when we die"? One of the passages that is used to answer that question is the passage about the thief on the cross.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)
This passage is conflated with the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The parable is taken literally, rather than as a parable, and it's assumed that some part of man lives on after death and is represented in this parable. Since this parable has the Rich Man in Hades, it's assumed that Lazarus was there too. When people look at the passage of the thief and don't know that the comma is in wrong place they draw the conclusion that Jesus and the thief would be in a place called paradise that very day. If Jesus and the thief would be in paradise that day and both died that day it's assumed they would be in the same place as Lazarus and the Rich Man. This assumption then leads to the conclusion that paradise is in Hades.
The problem is that in the first passage, Gen. 2:8 the translators "translated" the Greek word paradeisos. In the second passage, Luke 23:43, they "transliterated" the Greek word paradeisos. It's the same word in Gen. 2:8 and Luke 23:43. The question one has to ask is why did they translate it in one passage and transliterate it in another. It seems that if they translated it, it wouldn't fit with their theology. If they translated it, it would read this way.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in the garden
Now, who believes that Jesus and the thief went to a garden that day? Who believes there is a garden in Hades? You see, if they had translated it garden, instead of transliterating it paradise, maybe there wouldn't be a lot of Christians who think paradise is in Hades. Who is going to argue that there is a garden under the earth. It seems pretty improbable since there is no sunlight. But, because they both translate and transliterate this word they keep the real idea from the English reader. The average reader has no idea that paradise and a garden are the same thing.
But, If you believe that some part of man lives on after death and goes into the earth then you obviously can't translated paradeisos as garden in Luke 23:43. So, you have to transliterate it, call it paradise, and all of a sudden it fits the prevailing belief. Is it intentional or not? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that the English reader is mislead. Because the English reader sees two places, a garden and a place called paradise, when in fact they are the same.
In the Greek Old Testament we see the paradeisos of Eden in which is the Tree of Life. In Revelation we see the paradeisos of God, in which is the Tree of life. They are the same. This is the answer that Jesus gave to the thief. The thief's request to Jesus was to be remembered when Jesus came into His kingdom. Jesus answered him, truly I tell you today, you will be with me in the garden, the paradeisos of God.
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (Gen. 2:8 KJV)
It says God planted a garden in Eden. The topic of this thread is "Where do we go when we die"? One of the passages that is used to answer that question is the passage about the thief on the cross.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)
This passage is conflated with the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The parable is taken literally, rather than as a parable, and it's assumed that some part of man lives on after death and is represented in this parable. Since this parable has the Rich Man in Hades, it's assumed that Lazarus was there too. When people look at the passage of the thief and don't know that the comma is in wrong place they draw the conclusion that Jesus and the thief would be in a place called paradise that very day. If Jesus and the thief would be in paradise that day and both died that day it's assumed they would be in the same place as Lazarus and the Rich Man. This assumption then leads to the conclusion that paradise is in Hades.
The problem is that in the first passage, Gen. 2:8 the translators "translated" the Greek word paradeisos. In the second passage, Luke 23:43, they "transliterated" the Greek word paradeisos. It's the same word in Gen. 2:8 and Luke 23:43. The question one has to ask is why did they translate it in one passage and transliterate it in another. It seems that if they translated it, it wouldn't fit with their theology. If they translated it, it would read this way.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in the garden
Now, who believes that Jesus and the thief went to a garden that day? Who believes there is a garden in Hades? You see, if they had translated it garden, instead of transliterating it paradise, maybe there wouldn't be a lot of Christians who think paradise is in Hades. Who is going to argue that there is a garden under the earth. It seems pretty improbable since there is no sunlight. But, because they both translate and transliterate this word they keep the real idea from the English reader. The average reader has no idea that paradise and a garden are the same thing.
But, If you believe that some part of man lives on after death and goes into the earth then you obviously can't translated paradeisos as garden in Luke 23:43. So, you have to transliterate it, call it paradise, and all of a sudden it fits the prevailing belief. Is it intentional or not? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that the English reader is mislead. Because the English reader sees two places, a garden and a place called paradise, when in fact they are the same.
In the Greek Old Testament we see the paradeisos of Eden in which is the Tree of Life. In Revelation we see the paradeisos of God, in which is the Tree of life. They are the same. This is the answer that Jesus gave to the thief. The thief's request to Jesus was to be remembered when Jesus came into His kingdom. Jesus answered him, truly I tell you today, you will be with me in the garden, the paradeisos of God.
We are body, soul and spirit. We are spiritual beings -- when we become born again -- we become spiritually alive. When a born again person Dies, they are with Jesus Christ immediately. When an unsaved person dies, they go to Hades to wait for the final judgement time.
But when Jesus Christ died, He went to Abraham's bosom to get those who had died believing that in the Future , Jesus Christ Would die and looked forward To that and To His bodily resurrection. So Jesus Christ took back up with Him those who had been in the Paradise section of Abraham's bosom --- Resurrection Day was actually on the 1st day of the week, early in the morning. As we find in the four Gospels -- that's why we worship on the 1st day of the week -- in honor of The Lord's Day.
The soul of a person is the part which accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior.
They are sometimes used interchangeably.
Look at Matthew 27:52 and surrounding verses for context.
And Hebrews 4:12 -- talks about the soul and the spirit. The Word of God being sharper than any two-edged sword , piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent s of the heart."
It doesn't have to be an "hopefully' situation. We CAN know for sure that we will be with Jesus Christ for all eternity. It will be the New Jerusalem that God will bring down with Him from heaven.
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The reality is that not all go to be with God, only those who are Born Again. The " hopefully " commit was my wish that all will be "Born Again "but scripture appears to be clear, not all will!
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All sounds very plausible.
So, "we remain there until Judgement Day."
How long do you suppose "We" wait there?
While remain there...this is the the Spiritual; not the Physical, right?
Hekuran
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Did you see the discussion of the biblical meaning of 'soul' earlier in this thread?
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Greetings brother,
As has been said, this has become a very interesting discussion, why? Because we are all talking about it and quoting scripture, no dart throwers therefore no one is aiming at any form of point scoring. I believe when we pray and discuss scripture like this together the Spirit is more likely to work in us and reveal the Truths in The Word. To God be the Glory.
Over the last couple of days I have prayerfully considered the scriptures we have been sharing one with another, along with the translated words, the one thing that doesn't seem to gel is as you have quoted above, how can there be light in Hades, the Paradise section when it is in a lower section of the ground, that said nothing is impossible for God, and in all things we take him at his Word, that is all The Word.
What you say makes sense brother, so we must take that on board also, along with all other scriptures relating to the topic, providing we take them all in context. This does not mean we should reject any previous ideas from scripture, no, no, they should remain in our study notes as we consider others also.
Let us all continue, led by the Holy Spirit, considering all options from scripture, each with an open mind, the more pieces we have of the jigsaw the clearer the picture should become.
In His Love
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Greetings Sue,
God created man from the dust of the earth, he breathed into him the breath of life, AND 'MAN BECAME' A LIVING SOUL.
Genesis 2:7
Shalom
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Please quote scripture Sue, so that together we can clearly compare the statements made.
Shalom
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Greetings Sue
Although this scripture dies refer to the soul, it does not refer to where the soul goes when we die, which is the topic we are discussing together
Shalom
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Thank you for your comments here, but this is one of the points we noted, this happens after Jesus has returned, when all things are made new.
So we realise there is a place where body, spirit and soul go after death, a waiting place. There is a waiting place for saved souls, there is a waiting place for lost souls.
We know the body goes back to the dust of the earth and have discussed the scripture for this which is very clear.
We have included a scripture confirming the spirit goes back to God who created it.
But what about the soul of the departed, lost soul and saved soul?
We have discussed the probability of Hades which translations of scripture already discussed appear to explain the souls go to Hades, saved soul section and lost soul section.
What we need to do together now is consider what has been discussed based on scripture, along with translations and Transliteration as commented by our dear brother @Butch5, plus any other situation confirmed in scripture regarding the topic.
An additional consideration is the one you have just raised, you stated, we go to be with Jesus when we die. Please confirm which part of 'we' you are referring to, we know you are referring to a saved soul, and please confirm your views with scripture, this way we can all sing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.
In His Love
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All very plausible as you say, but we continue with the study, exploring from scripture all possibilities.
We do not say this is right or wrong at this stage, nor do we stop at this stage, we continue comparing scripture together, gathering all possibilities to the topic, considering all plausible, some items will be very clearlime the flesh body goes back to the dust of the earth, others need research and discussion as a group through prayer.
We are to search the scriptures, the Truth is in The Word.
Shalom
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All very plausible as you say, but we QUOTE="Brother-Paul, post: 394374, member: 30622"]
All very plausible as you say, but we continue with the study, exploring from scripture all possibilities.
We do not say this is right or wrong at this stage, nor do we stop at this stage, we continue comparing scripture together, gathering all possibilities to the topic, considering all plausible, some items will be very clearlime the flesh body goes back to the dust of the earth, others need research and discussion as a group through prayer.
We are to search the scriptures, the Truth is in The Word.
Shalom
[/QUOTE]
Although what you say is true, I'll just take that as a non- answer to my question.
All very plausible as you say, but we continue with the study, exploring from scripture all possibilities.
We do not say this is right or wrong at this stage, nor do we stop at this stage, we continue comparing scripture together, gathering all possibilities to the topic, considering all plausible, some items will be very clearlime the flesh body goes back to the dust of the earth, others need research and discussion as a group through prayer.
We are to search the scriptures, the Truth is in The Word.
Shalom
[/QUOTE]
Although what you say is true, I'll just take that as a non- answer to my question.
