Arguments for OSAS

[Downunder]

Faux believers, but not true believers. Faux believers can look like the real thing for a while, act like the real thing for a while, they can even produce fruit, but it's bad fruit (faux fruit), and in the end they are revealed for the fakes that they are. The faux are never saved, but they fake being saved for a while, even convincing some into believing they are the real deal. You have fallen for their deception.

This is a major problem with OSAS you have to invent a fictitious class of "not truly saved" believers to give credibility to your doctrine.
The epistles are not written to fake or imitation saints - in the NT a person must be born new again by water and the Spirit - all saints were sanctified in the Holy Spirit thus all were saved -
you and OSAS confuse this initial belief with the end result which can play out over years, even decades.
Jesus himself gives many warnings about the commitment required and the cost of being a disciple and warns against backsliding or retreating from faith.
Likewise the epistles preach much on how to stay saved and how to overcome the trials and tribulations that shall come against the saints.
Your claim that "Faux believers, but not true believers" is incorrect. There is no such thing as a faux believer; only that tragically some believers (disciples) lose heart and their love and fear of God as their Saviour and they
return to the world.
All believers are subject to this danger and it is only at the end of their life that their hope and patience will be recompensed with the promise of life eternal.
The day you are born from above by water and Spirit is only the first step in your journey - for we walk by faith and not by sight.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

 

[Downunder]

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
1:2 To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Butch5]

Paul may have not expressly used the term "born again" or "born from above" but I believe Peter does

1Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of Jesus Christ’s blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1:3 Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1:4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,
1:5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last season.
verse 1:3
(DRB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:
(ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LEB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LITV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(LSV) Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness begot us again to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
(Weymouth) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Hi Wggles,

Yes, Peter did use the phrase. Take note that this letter is addressed to Jewish believers.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1 NKJ)

The Dispersion (diaspora) is a term that was used for the Jews who were scattered among the nations.

 

[Butch5]

You're plain wrong: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Here the Greek "tis" is used, which means one or anyone.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Here the Greek "pas" is used, which means all, every (thing, one), whole.

All of this Jesus said in one conversation and refers to anyone and everyone.

Jesus said He had only come to the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel. That limits His statement "all" to Israel. Remember, at that point the Gospel had not gone to the Gentiles yet. So again, at this time, "all" refers to the Jews. This would change later, but at this time the Gentiles were not yet included.

 

[Butch5]

We have Jesus plainly saying that ANYONE who is not born again will not see the kingdom, and ALL that are will have eternal life. Follow Jesus on this, sonny, and you won't go astray.

If we want to understand the Bible it must be contextually. If we just want a collection of proof texts, well, context doesn't matter.

 

[JerryfromMass]

This is a major problem with OSAS you have to invent a fictitious class of "not truly saved" believers to give credibility to your doctrine.
The epistles are not written to fake or imitation saints - in the NT a person must be born new again by water and the Spirit - all saints were sanctified in the Holy Spirit thus all were saved -
you and OSAS confuse this initial belief with the end result which can play out over years, even decades.
Jesus himself gives many warnings about the commitment required and the cost of being a disciple and warns against backsliding or retreating from faith.
Likewise the epistles preach much on how to stay saved and how to overcome the trials and tribulations that shall come against the saints.
Your claim that "Faux believers, but not true believers" is incorrect. There is no such thing as a faux believer; only that tragically some believers (disciples) lose heart and their love and fear of God as their Saviour and they
return to the world.
All believers are subject to this danger and it is only at the end of their life that their hope and patience will be recompensed with the promise of life eternal.
The day you are born from above by water and Spirit is only the first step in your journey - for we walk by faith and not by sight.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

False prophets and false teachers, those that Jesus warns us of, are not true believers, they and their followers are faux believers.

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5
Greetings,

If we want to understand the Bible it must be contextually. If we just want a collection of proof texts, well, context doesn't matter.

does this fit some sort of contextual place in it all? (as there has been talk about the Vine in relation to the topic of the thread)

--------------------------------->

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches.

But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.


Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:17-24


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

False prophets and false teachers, those that Jesus warns us of, are not true believers, they and their followers are faux believers.

Disagreeing with Jerry isn't the definition of a false teacher.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5
Greetings,



does this fit some sort of contextual place in it all? (as there has been talk about the Vine in relation to the topic of the thread)

--------------------------------->

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches.

But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.


Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:17-24


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear,

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

 

[JerryfromMass]

Disagreeing with Jerry isn't the definition of a false teacher.

Not my definition; God's. God's word warns us of false teachers and tells us how to spot them.

 

[Butch5]

Not my definition; God's. God's word warns us of false teachers and tells us how to spot them.

It does, but, I didn't see that disagreeing with Jerry was one of them.

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Br. Bear,

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

Greetings,

I can.... but after a little while. I was thinking of context and applying Scripture to Scripture. In the passage given, there are a few things that relate to some of the discussion here, so far.
I was thinking also about the fragments that remained after our Lord fed the thoudands and the Disciples gathered the 'leftovers'. But that might go into another discussion so it is enough that there be fragments to be bundled up in this thread and through it all, we all might see the tapestry as beautiful as it is according to the Master Who adorns each one of us.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Corinthians 3:9

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.


Bless you ....><>

 

[JerryfromMass]

It does, but, I didn't see that disagreeing with Jerry was one of them.

You're free to disagree just as you are free to be wrong about being born again and salvation.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

may i jump in here?

While @Butch5 is on track concerning the message given to Nicodemus*** we mustn't loose track of what we read in Isaiah chapter 42

Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in Whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His law.

Thus saith God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I the LORD have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a Light of the Gentiles;


To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


I am the LORD YHWH: that is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Isaiah 42:1-9


and while we are at it,

Sing unto the LORD a new song, and His praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare His praise in the islands.
Isaiah 42:10-12

for it is good to sing praise to the LORD!!!


Bless you all ....><>


*** Interesting to note that the name Nicodemus comes from Nikos and démos, Victory of the / for the (common-all) people, which directly realtes to our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings once more,

I was reading about Saul in 1Samuel

Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying, To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over My people Israel, that he may save My people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon My people, because their cry is come unto Me. And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over My people.
1Samuel 9:15-17

Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over His inheritance?
1Samuel 10:1

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
1Samuel 10:6-7


and then i remembered how Saul changed and what happened as a result.


food for thought?


Bless you ....><>

 

[JerryfromMass]

Greetings once more,

I was reading about Saul in 1Samuel

Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying, To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over My people Israel, that he may save My people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon My people, because their cry is come unto Me. And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over My people.
1Samuel 9:15-17

Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over His inheritance?
1Samuel 10:1

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
1Samuel 10:6-7


and then i remembered how Saul changed and what happened as a result.


food for thought?


Bless you ....><>

I ask: what did Samuel mean when his spirit told Saul he would be with him (Samuel)? Abraham's bosom, perhaps? Saul did not choose to run for high office, God in HIS sovereignty chose Saul and Saul eventually accepted. As disobefient to God as Saul was, God chose Saul over all others and anointed him to lead Israel. Saul was certainly a backslider, but he was not apostate. He's saved.

 

[Reba1]

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Let me insert into the Scripture some humanism... He has preeminence in all things except my will. He the potter did not craft me i have my own will. Although the Scriptures tell me my faith comes from God but but it is MY faith,,, My will my choice ... Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[B-A-C]

1Sam 9:17; When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, "Behold, the man of whom I spoke to you! This one shall rule over My people."
1Sam 13:1; Saul was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty two years over Israel.
1Sam 13:13; Samuel said to Saul, "You have acted foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, for now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.

1Sam 16:14; Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

1Sam 15:10; Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
1Sam 15:11; "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands." And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.

==========

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Kin 11:8; Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 6:5; Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6; The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

=================

John 6:65; And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
John 6:68; Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
John 6:69; "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
John 6:70; Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
John 6:71; Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

=================

Luke 12:43; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Luke 12:44; "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Luke 12:45; "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
Luke 12:46; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

=================

Jdg 16:20; She said, "The Philistines are upon you, Samson!" And he awoke from his sleep and said, "I will go out as at other times and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had departed from him.

 

[Butch5]

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Let me insert into the Scripture some humanism... He has preeminence in all things except my will. He the potter did not craft me i have my own will. Although the Scriptures tell me my faith comes from God but but it is MY faith,,, My will my choice ... Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Context