Can Salvation Be lost?

[Downunder]

Luke 9:62 But Jesus said unto him, No one, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[Downunder]

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they should hear, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word sown in them.
4:16 And these likewise are they sown upon the rocky places, who, when they should hear the word, straightway receive it with joy;
4:17 and have no root in themselves, but endure a while; then when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.
4:18 And others are they sown among the thorns; these are they that have heard the word,
4:19 and the cares of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

 

[Butch5]

After ten years of debate, I have yet to find a single anti-Osas believer capable of logical thought. One who can provide a coherent rebuttal to arguments raised. The following arguments were raised in a recent discussion and the replies were just shocking, they attest to the truth of OSAS and the true satanic nature behind an anti-OSAS belief.

Since we're talking about logical arguments, "Poising the well" is a logical fallacy.

1. Criminal next to Jesus on cross - Instant salvation

Instant and / or four hour long conversion on the cross beside Jesus. Then promised eternal bliss. No ''works'' required.

I don't see an argument for OSAS here. If we accept your premise that the thief was instantly saved. It doesn't prove that others can't be lost

2. Criminal next to Jesus on the cross - no works

Guaranteed heaven with no servitude, whilst those who replicate his devotion and ''add'' years of servitude to God's kingdom, do so at the risk of eternal ex-communication. This implies God is partial. God is not partial Acts 10:34. Impartiality is wicked. God is not wicked Psalm 136:1. An anti-OSAS belief implies God is partial and wicked.

This argument is the the fallacy of "Hasty Generalization". However, Even if God was partial (He's not) this doesn't even address the OSAS issue.

3. Lucifer - Eternally removed from heaven

Lucifer, the fallen angels and all the wicked who reject Jesus will go to hell for all eternity. The scriptural theory is that there is no redemption plan for the fallen angels as they will never desire true repentance. Do we believe God made a mistake casting them out for all eternity? If we believe God did not, then likewise He is able to graft a saint in. IE God does not make mistakes. An anti-Osas belief implies God is an idiot who makes mistakes.

This is the fallacy of "Unwarranted Assumption". You have no way of knowing if fallen angels will ever desire true repentance. And, there is no OSAS argument here.

4. The process of being born again

Jesus laid His life down for us, this is the greatest act of love possible John 15:13. For a human to ever be grafted into the vine they need to have an equal depth of intent. We see this in Matt 16:24, Rev 2:10 and in all the examples in history of tyrants demanding we bow the knee and reject Jesus. So, if God cannot be sufficiently happy with us reaching the required depth of intent required for salvation, how is it that we are then confident with His sacrifice? God judges our hearts and minds at depths that only He can Jer 17:9-12. An anti-OSAS belief mocks the very core of Christianity and our union with God.

Again, there is no OSAS argument here.

I am going to stop there, I could add another hundred such arguments, but I know that I will not get a coherent rebuttal to any of these, so why waste my time.

Conclusion - An anti- OSAS belief implies God is partial, wicked, foolish and our eternal salvation is not secure. It ticks all the blocks of a satanic doctrine. Not sure how any Christian can believe and teach such when they are informed and enlightened. I just nod my head in disbelief when I hear a ''scholar'' support anti-OSAS.

I would be careful of saying NOSAS believers aren't capable of a logical thought. There are several fallacies in this post and no argument showing one can't be lost.

 

[Downunder]

2Peter 1:1 Symeon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained an equally precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
1:2 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
Confirm Your Calling and Election
1:3 since his divine power hath granted to us all things unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us through glory and virtue;
1:4 whereby he hath granted us the precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1:5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in virtue knowledge;
1:6 and in knowledge self-control; and in self-control patience; and in patience godliness;
1:7 and in godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 For who lacketh these is blind, short-sighted, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for in doing these ye shall never stumble:
1:11 for thus shall be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Do any of you in here have the confident assurance that you will not under any circumstance relinquish the gift of eternal life you've been given by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus?

If you answered yes, then you must agree that you are presently and eternally saved and nothing will keep you out of heaven.

If you said yes, then you are once saved always saved.

 

[Downunder]

If you answered yes, then you must agree that you are presently and eternally saved and nothing will keep you out of heaven.

That is not a logical premise to follow your first question.
Nothing will keep you out of heaven is not of scripture nor taught by Jesus and the apostles (epistles).

 

[Downunder]

Hebrews 4:9 A sabbath rest remaineth therefore for the people of God.
4:10 For who is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his work, as God did from his own.
4:11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no one fall after the same example of disobedience.

 

[JerryfromMass]

That is not a logical premise to follow your first question.
Nothing will keep you out of heaven is not of scripture nor taught by Jesus and the apostles (epistles).

It is perfectly logical and scriptural, and those that lack confident assurance are those hoping their works compensate for their lack of confident assurance.

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7.

The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13.

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. Psalm 23:4.

 

[Downunder]

It is perfectly logical and scriptural, and those that lack confident assurance are those hoping their works compensate for their lack of confident assurance.

No it is not.
And again none of your cited scriptures teach OSAS. In fact one scripture in particular states the opposite of your claims for OSAS
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12.
So if a disciples fails the test of faithfulness under trials then he will not receive the crown of life.
People as Jesus teaches do depart from their first love.

 

[Reba1]

Love it

 

[JerryfromMass]

No it is not.
And again none of your cited scriptures teach OSAS.

Says the doubter, taught to doubt the sovereignty of God, to doubt the power of God to instill confident assurance in HIS followers that they are indeed HIS for eternity. Scripture clearly says so to the one whose eyes are not blinded by false teachings.

 

[Butch5]

Hebrews 4:9 A sabbath rest remaineth therefore for the people of God.
4:10 For who is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his work, as God did from his own.
4:11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no one fall after the same example of disobedience.

I don't think it's going to matter how much Scripture is posted. I've come to believe that OSAS is a fear driven doctrine. If that's correct and it's emotional it's not going to change.

 

[Downunder]

Says the doubter, taught to doubt the sovereignty of God, to doubt the power of God to instill confident assurance in HIS followers that they are indeed HIS for eternity. Scripture clearly says so to the one whose eyes are not blinded by false teachings.

Typical OSAS nonsense.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Typical OSAS nonsense.

Do others outside your congregation consider it a cult? Just curious.

 

[Butch5]

Typical OSAS nonsense.

When you see ad hominems, you know they have no argument.

 

[JerryfromMass]

I don't think it's going to matter how much Scripture is posted. I've come to believe that OSAS is a fear driven doctrine. If that's correct and it's emotional it's not going to change.

Fear/awe of God is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge and is the fountain of life. What have we to fear when we have confident assurance, having passed from death to life in Christ Jesus our Lord?

 

[JerryfromMass]

When you see ad hominems, you know they have no argument.

Is there such a thing as cults claiming to be Christian churches?

 

[Butch5]

Fear/awe of God is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge and is the fountain of life. What have we to fear when we have confident assurance, having passed from death to life in Christ Jesus our Lord?

I'm not talking about fear of God.

 

[Butch5]

Is there such a thing as cults claiming to be Christian churches?

That's irrelevant to the subject at hand

 

[JerryfromMass]

No it is not.
And again none of your cited scriptures teach OSAS. In fact one scripture in particular states the opposite of your claims for OSAS
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12.
So if a disciples fails the test of faithfulness under trials then he will not receive the crown of life.
People as Jesus teaches do depart from their first love.

Blessed is the man who remains steadfadt under trial, for he was once saved and is always saved.