PloughBoy
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"Checkmate"!
The dreaded "works" doctrine.
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Butch5
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Hi Chris,
In these passages what are they redeemed from? Is it not death? It says so right in passages. Who had the power of death?
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. NKJV 2:14-15
Redeem means to buy back. Who did God buy them back from? If the ransom was a payment to God, then God bought them back from Himself. Can you explain how that would make sense?
Butch5
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Only if one doesn't see beyond their circumstances. Again, how were these a payment to God when Paul says they couldnt take away sins?"Checkmate"!
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Hello @Butch5,
Yes: But do you not realise why I am quoting the types and shadows of the Old Testament? Because they portray the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they in their foreshadowing give the truth regarding the work of Christ, in the atonement, the redemption and so on; so that no imposition of the human mind is necessary in regard to our understanding of them. They could not take away sin, but they showed that without the shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness of sin.
As to whether they 'fit' any 'model' is of no concern of mine.: there is probably truth in both 'theory' to a degree, but because they are of man, they will be flawed to some degree. I prefer to let the word of God itself speak, Butch5.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Greetings,
Perhaps add Propitiation to the equation?
Note also the Son is He Who paid.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous: And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world
1John 2:1-2
and something that really should mean much more that it often appears to do...
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
1John 2:12
let us give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; His merciful lovingkindness [hesed] endures for ever
Bless you ....><>
Perhaps add Propitiation to the equation?
Note also the Son is He Who paid.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous: And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world
1John 2:1-2
and something that really should mean much more that it often appears to do...
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
1John 2:12
let us give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; His merciful lovingkindness [hesed] endures for ever
Bless you ....><>
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Hello @Butch5,
Yes. I have had those thoughts too, but it is the' destruction' of Satan that is in mind in the verse you quote, and not 'payment'. Our Lord destroyed the works of the devil. The devil is a created being, would you have God stoop to pay a ransom to such. No! The power of sin is in it's consequence, which is death. It brought the fear of death upon mankind, so that all their lifetime they were subject to its bondage. The bondage was in the mind and heart, and prevented man from enjoying the communion with God, that He also sought from them. It was God who sought man in the garden after the fall. Man was hiding from him, fear having entered, because death was the outcome of the sin they had committed. It was God who shed the blood of an animal in order to provide a covering for them, and this is symbolic of the act of redemption.
If you wish to place the devil in a position of ascendency over almighty God, and have it said that God, in Christ, paid a ransom to the devil, then you must settle that with your conscience, but I cannot do that. No, the Lord took upon Himself the form of a man that He might as their Kinsman-Redeemer redeem them. Please compare Romans 7:14-15, with Galatians 4:5 and Titus 2:14, and see that it is from iniquity, or sin, that we have been redeemed (2 Samuel 7:23/Leviticus 25:47-50). For we were sold under sin. We have been redeemed to sonship, that we may call God 'Father': which was not possible while we were slaves to sin. We needed to be made alive unto God.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Butch5,
I am praising God for our discussion, for it has required thought and necessitated searching the Scriptures to see if these things were in fact so. It has therefore brought joy, and opened windows of light upon verses which I had not considered before. So, I thank you Butch5, and would merely say, in relation to the two theories placed before us, by you, that each has elements of truth, but that each must bow before God, and His word, and be subject to the truth therein.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I am praising God for our discussion, for it has required thought and necessitated searching the Scriptures to see if these things were in fact so. It has therefore brought joy, and opened windows of light upon verses which I had not considered before. So, I thank you Butch5, and would merely say, in relation to the two theories placed before us, by you, that each has elements of truth, but that each must bow before God, and His word, and be subject to the truth therein.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Br. Bear,
Thank you for your input.
'Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,
to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God; ... '
(Rom. 3:25 )
'And He is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.'
(1 John 2:2)
'Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us,
and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.'
(1 John 4:10)
Yes, our Lord became a propitiation for our sins, by the shedding of His Own blood. The word propitiation must be understood according to the way the Holy Spirit has used it in His word (above), I believe, for to define it by any other means I believe could rob it of it's meaning within the context in which it comes.
The gospel of God reveals the wrath of God (Romans 1:18) as well as the means of escape from it, doesn't it? How is this wrath to be removed? It can only come through the propitiation that God has provided whereby, through Christ, men's sins can be righteously cancelled, in which case retribution (the wrath of God) does not arise.
@Butch5 was right to object to the word, appeasement, in relation to God: for it is a pagan concept. It is not man who is trying to placate God, not sinful man Who has provided this 'mercy 'seat (Romans 3:25) , but God Himself. As He did typically in the Old Testament:-
'Let us therefore come boldly
unto the throne of grace,
that we may obtain mercy,
and find grace to help in time of need.'
(Heb 4:16)
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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'Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,
to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness:
that He might be just, and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:25-26)
'And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat;
of which we cannot now speak particularly.'
(Heb 9:5)
Hello @Butch5,
Man has 'come short', hasn't he? There is none righteous among men, whether Jew or Gentile, but the mercy-seat covered the unbroken tables of stone, the unaltered covenant and testimony, so that where the atoning blood was sprinkled God was free to become 'the Justifier of the ungodly,' while Himself remaining 'just' in all His ways.
This propitiatory has been 'set forth' by God. God purposed, or set before Himself in His great plan of the ages, the propitiation. He set it forth in the typical mercy-seat, and it was before Him when He passed over the sins of men before Christ actually came to the earth. Its presence in His purpose justified all His ways with sinful men.
'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
(1 Timothy 2:6)
The blood shed (the life poured forth) was the ransom our Saviour paid. To whom or what? He offered Himself to God
'Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood
He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, (covenant)
that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament,
they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.'
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness:
that He might be just, and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:25-26)
'And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat;
of which we cannot now speak particularly.'
(Heb 9:5)
Hello @Butch5,
Man has 'come short', hasn't he? There is none righteous among men, whether Jew or Gentile, but the mercy-seat covered the unbroken tables of stone, the unaltered covenant and testimony, so that where the atoning blood was sprinkled God was free to become 'the Justifier of the ungodly,' while Himself remaining 'just' in all His ways.
This propitiatory has been 'set forth' by God. God purposed, or set before Himself in His great plan of the ages, the propitiation. He set it forth in the typical mercy-seat, and it was before Him when He passed over the sins of men before Christ actually came to the earth. Its presence in His purpose justified all His ways with sinful men.
'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
(1 Timothy 2:6)
The blood shed (the life poured forth) was the ransom our Saviour paid. To whom or what? He offered Himself to God
'Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood
He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, (covenant)
that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament,
they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.'
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Butch5
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Hi Chris,
The first thing I would point out is that the word propitiation was used by the Reformers who proposed this Penal model. In the OT the Greek word hilasterion is translated mercy seat. It would seem the use of the word propitiation was intentional to push a doctrine. They could easily have translated it as mercy seat like it is everywhere else in the Bible.
My question to you is, was the mercy seat a place where people "paid" God for their sins? Or, was it a place where they sought mercy? Mercy is forgiveness, not payment.
You posted the passage that says Christ offered Himself to God.
It would seem then, correct me if I'm wrong, that your position is that God demanded a ransom and Christ offered to be that ransom. If God demanded a ransom for sins, why did He say He would forgive sins? Remember, a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. The two are mutually exclusive. Also, if God demanded this ransom please explain why it was paid by Christ and man. The ransom paid was death. Christ died for sin. Man dies for his sins. Why is it paid twice? Also, if man paid it why did Christ have to die?
Another question I would pose, is, again, can this be understood differently than you're understanding it? As I said, all of these passages fit within the Ransom model. And, the ransom model was what was taught in the beginning. The Penal model didnt exist until the 1500's. You said you reject the theories of men, yet a teaching that doesn't appear until 1500 years later must be a theory of men.
B-A-C
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If I pay a debt for you, that you owe. Yes the debt is paid for. But now I own you. You were bought with a price. (the blood) You are not your own. ( 1Cor 6:19-20; 1Cor 7:23; )
You still have to pay me back (if not in actual money) then in being my slave.
1Cor 7:22; For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
Matt 10:24; "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
Matt 24:46; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
If you aren't a good "slave" there will be consequences.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Now unlike slaves of olden times. You have a choice to accept these terms of agreement or not. You can refuse and continue to owe.
Luke 14:28; "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:29; "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
Luke 14:30; saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
Butch5
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Hi Chris,
You can't get away from the mind of man. You're reading a translation that is filtered through the mind of man. You filter the Scriptures through your own mind. How do you know that your understanding is correct? It's subject to your preconceptioms. It's subject to the things you've learned in life.
A perfect example of this is the thief on the cross. The passage can be interpreted two different ways. Both are grammatically correct. The way one interprets the passage is based on their preconceptions. If a person believes in an immortal soul they interpret it as Jesus and the thief being in Paradise that day. One who doesn't believe in an immortal soul interprets it as Jesus telling the thief today, that he would be with Him in Paradise. These two interpretations cannot both be correct. However, both sides of the discussion think they are correct. The question then becomes whose preoccupation is the correct one?
I find that people often conflate the word of God and their understanding of it, often without realizing it. People will say, the Bible says xyz. However, the understanding is based on their beliefs and often a given passage can be understood differently if one starts with a different set of preconceptions. I think we always have to remember that when we say the Bible says xyz, what that really means is I believe the Bible says xyz.
I think what happens is that we don't consider that a passage may be understood differently so we assume that our understanding is what it means and then we call it the word of God, thus in effect cementing our belief in our own minds. Essentially, what we believe is God's word and since God's word cannot be wrong we cannot be wrong.
Butch5
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Hi B-A-C,
Agreed, however, the debt isn't forgiven. Whether I pay the original person or you, I still pay the debt. The whole concept of forgiveness is that the debt isn't paid. If we say that the debt is both paid and forgiven we have a contradiction. The two are mutually exclusive. If you have one you cannot have the other. Thus a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. This is why the Penal model doesnt work. It's based on two mutually exclusive concepts
Butch5
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Hi Chris,
Thanks! The whole idea is to provoke thought. This is a subject that is quite deep. I agree that there are elements of truth in both. My position, or questions are, which fits the totality of Scripture? Which makes the most sense?
When I ask myself some of the more basic questions and analyze the answers, how does it come out?
If Jesus was a ransom, to whom was the ransom paid, and who paid it? Did God pay a ransom to Himself? If so, does that make sense? Why would one pay a ransom to themselves? When I try to answer these questions the answers don't make sense. This doesnt even fit with the concept of ransom. A ransom is always paid to another person. The more I look into the doctrine and analyze the questions I find more and more problems. If Jesus paid the price why do we also pay that price? It goes on and on.
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Hello @Butch5,
Thank you for the information concerning the word, 'propitiation', I do prefer 'mercy seat', for it is graphic, and easy to understand. I believe the mercy seat was indeed where the mercy of God was sought, and received. What a glorious picture of Christ this is, for it is in Him that we receive mercy.
In regard to the word, 'ransom': looking up the word in Scripture, the first usage of it is found in Exodus 30:12, 'When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.' Then in Job there is another of interest, in Job 33:24, 'Then He is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.' Another also in Psalm 49:7-9, 'None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever ) That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.'
I will not seek to interpret these verses, but simply acknowledge their presence in God's word and rejoice in them, for it is sufficient for me to know that the Lord Jesus Christ has given His life as a ransom for many, and that the ransom was given to God as a ransom for me. Praise His Holy Name!
God has said it, I believe it - praise His Holy Name.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Butch5,
You may be right about that. What matters is that we believe what God has said within His word concerning His Son, regardless of the vagaries of our individual understanding. Christ is the foundation of our faith. All is complete in Him. It is for us to be sure that we do not build on that Divine foundation anything that is not equally Divine in origin.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Butch5,
Yes. I understand. There is peace only in simply believing what God has said. I do not understand everything, but I do believe. There is rest in that. We are told not to indulge in doubtful disputations, for it can destroy the faith of some. That possibility is too terrible to contemplate,isn't it? Christ is our ark, our fortress, in Him there is safety, in Him there is assurance. In Him the simplest mind can find hope and joy in believing.
How kind it is of God to bring all these complex issues and give one answer to them all - CHRIST. [Our Saviour, our Lord and our Head]. He is our life, and in Him our life is hid in God, and when He Who is our life appears in glory, we shall appear with Him there.
Praise God! For His mercy and His grace.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Butch5
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HI Br. Bear,
It seems to me that the translation of propitiation was one of convenience. All through the Bible the word Hilasterion is translated mercy seat. I believe they chose propitiation simply because it fit their theology.
Greetings my friend,
I think if we are honest, most people need to look up in a dictionary, or ask, what 'propitiation' means, when they come across it. Depending on how sincerely interested one is, the result of such enquiry would lead to the 'idea' of the mercy you pointed out in the 'mercy seat'.
One who has such sincerity in wanting to understand would also be wanting to understand what 'mercy' really is and what the meaning of 'mercy seat' is also.
Regarding fitting something into one's theology, it could be said that most, if not all, would have to consider all things most prayerfully in order to not do likewise and to do such with others who share the faith. As much as we have come to find 'teachers' to be questionable, a good teacher can be questioned with harder stuff and continue to teach.
We do have much at our disposal in this age. Almost too much, to the point where one can disregard all others and become self sustaining [to a point] and that in itself does tend go in the face of much of how a Body functions, a Body we claim to be members of, with Christ being the Head.
Given your explanation/reply, how would the few verses read that use the translation of 'propitiation', if 'mercy seat' was used instead?
Can one grasp the meaning of 'propitiation' as being parallel to 'mercy seat'?
Bless you ....><>
I think if we are honest, most people need to look up in a dictionary, or ask, what 'propitiation' means, when they come across it. Depending on how sincerely interested one is, the result of such enquiry would lead to the 'idea' of the mercy you pointed out in the 'mercy seat'.
One who has such sincerity in wanting to understand would also be wanting to understand what 'mercy' really is and what the meaning of 'mercy seat' is also.
Regarding fitting something into one's theology, it could be said that most, if not all, would have to consider all things most prayerfully in order to not do likewise and to do such with others who share the faith. As much as we have come to find 'teachers' to be questionable, a good teacher can be questioned with harder stuff and continue to teach.
We do have much at our disposal in this age. Almost too much, to the point where one can disregard all others and become self sustaining [to a point] and that in itself does tend go in the face of much of how a Body functions, a Body we claim to be members of, with Christ being the Head.
Given your explanation/reply, how would the few verses read that use the translation of 'propitiation', if 'mercy seat' was used instead?
Can one grasp the meaning of 'propitiation' as being parallel to 'mercy seat'?
Bless you ....><>
